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Conversation with Soma: Orcas Beta 1 and Beyond

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Orcas Beta 1 has shipped!!! Who better to tell us all about VS Orcas and related technologies than our good friend Soma, VP of the developer division (that's the group that makes all of our development tools and programming languages). Orcas Beta 1 is a major milestone for the next version of VS and related technologies.

Install Orcas (on Vista, baby!) and experience firsthand the plethora of innovations it contains. Did you know you can write VS 2005 applications in Orcas? Did you you know that LINQ is deeply integrated into the Orcas IDE? Did you know that there is now JScript intellisense? Have you played with Cider (design surface for WPF)? Did you know...

As always, your feedback is critical. Soma and team anxiously await learning about your experiences with Orcas.

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  • Christian Liensbergerlittleguru <3 Seattle
    Oho! Nice. Smiley Thanks for the video. I'm gonna watch it now.
    When are the public ISO images going to be released? Any date?
  • RoyalSchrubberRoyal​Schrubber One. How many time travellers does it take to change a lightbulb?

    Great video. Thanks Soma and Charles Smiley

  • ZippyVZippyV Fired Up
    What about creating a Windows Installer project? Is it still treated as the (I need to watch my language) stephchild or are there actually improvements made (integration with Wix) and can we make patches?
  • Soma mentioned a blog to check for some details on team systems.  does someone have a url?
  • CharlesCharles Welcome Change
    cwbrandsma wrote:
    Soma mentioned a blog to check for some details on team systems.  does someone have a url?


    That would be Brian Harry's blog. Also, check out Brian Keller's blog.
  • SecretSoftwareSecret​Software Code to live, but Live to code.
    WoW. OMG!! OMG !! OMG !!

    Is this real? Tell me its real!


    I am feeling light headed  already!


    THIS IS EXCITING NEWS. Cant wait to download it and install it and use LINQ.


    ITs always good news when you see SOMA!!!


    Thanks Charles! As always you rock!.Cool


    Now where is that , Post button,,,, ah there.Big Smile


  • Thanks for sharing them with us.

    Btw, I cannot access MSDN Subscriber Downloads.

    Is the site down?


    Qoute from (https://msdn2.microsoft.com/Message-MSDN.htm?aspxerrorpath=/en-US/subscriptions/manage/default.aspx)

    Sorry, we were unable to service your request.

    For the latest headlines and to see what's new, visit the MSDN home page.

    Check out the various MSDN Developer Centers where you can find the latest product information, technical resources, and community offerings.

    Visit the MSDN Library for the latest technical articles, reference documentation, downloads, and more.


  • Nice to see such a good interview. Very informative, gives a lot of background but as Soma says the proof of the pudding....
  • Looking at MSDN Subscriber Downloads now and I can't see Orcas Beta 1 there. How long does it usually take the images to distribute out to Microsofts download farm?
  • umicumic umic
    Come on release it already I cant wait any longer.
  • Vesuviusvesuvius Count Orlock
    Apoplectic at the moment. Think I better go lie down somwhere.
    Right I'm back and displaying the same impatience of the ante-posters.

    You have put a kid in a sweet shop and said look, but don't touch!
  • CharlesCharles Welcome Change
    I am told that the ISOs are "coming soon". There have been some technical issues with the massive deployment to the MS download cluster...

    Stay tuned. It'll be worth the wait.
  • Vesuviusvesuvius Count Orlock
    vesuvius wrote:
    Apoplectic at the moment. Think I better go lie down somwhere.
    Right I'm back and displaying the same impatience of the ante-posters.

    You have put a kid in a sweet shop and said look, but don't touch!


    Update: Soma's blog intimates that Orcas will be available "in the next day or so"
  • robcaronrobcaron Rob Caron
    The ISOs are coming very soon for Microsoft Downloads, and they are already showing up on MSDN Subscriber Downloads (see: Visual Studio Code Name "Orcas" Beta 1 for MSDN Subscribers).
  • BoomportBoomport SG1: Deep Space Radar Telemetry is the job to have.
    I really enjoyed the Vid, but....

    I hope they don't spread themselves so thin on enhancing the big IT shop offerings that they forget the small shops.  As a contractor I have worked in both.  VS2005 just seemed like the IDE has more little quirky issues then VS2003.  Was that because they took dev's off to do team stuff?  Was it because it added to many other tasked that they could focus on all of them?  I hope the new testing and project integration stuff doesn't leave the core IDE to more quirkyness.  For example with SP1 for VS2005 did any one else have the icons in the tool tab freak.  It happened on both my home and work computers right after I installed SP1.  There are plenty more little things, I hope microsoft doesn't forget quality first before functionality.

  • Kudos to the whole team. This is what keeps me believing in MS. See my post at http://developershelf.blogspot.com/2007/04/orcas-beta-1-and-net-35-shipped.html
  • Christian Liensbergerlittleguru <3 Seattle
    robcaron wrote:
    The ISOs are coming very soon for Microsoft Downloads, and they are already showing up on MSDN Subscriber Downloads (see: Visual Studio Code Name "Orcas" Beta 1 for MSDN Subscribers).


    Thanks! I'm really keen to test it out Smiley
  • William Staceystaceyw Before C# there was darkness...
    I love seeing a plan come together.  You guys talked about it (orcas, fx 3.0, 3.5, timelines, features, etc) and are delivering pretty much on q.  Look forward to using the bits.  Thank you.
  • What is the target release month for Visual Studio 2008?

    Cool

  • abkrinoabkrino Time...Time There is always no TIME
    another note though this is for MSlearning team PREPARE THE BOOKS AND STUDYING MATERIALS FROM NOW!!!!! i just got the 070-549 SPTK from amazon a few days ago!! and here is orcas coming while the material for whidbey is just shipping!!Mad ( the book itself was out on 28th march and was delayed to ship until 6th april  Sad )
  • abkrinoabkrino Time...Time There is always no TIME
    thanks for the Vid Charles

    first prediction for 2007 came true Big Smile I see the future and again my 2008 too that orcas will ship in 2008 Big Smile


    Edit:

    These downloads are currently unavailable on Microsoft Downloads, but will be available soon. MSDN Subscribers can download these files from MSDN Subscriber Downloads. Sad Sad Sad what's the purpose of beta testing in the first place?! Sad
  • robcaronrobcaron Rob Caron
    The delay in posting the bits on Microsoft Downloads is not part of a nefarious plan. On MSDN Subscriber Downloads, we can post a single file containing the ISO image rather easily. To post that download on Microsoft Downloads, we have to split it into a multi-volume self-extracting file, reverse the process and ensure the self-extraction works correctly, publish these files through a system that is optimized for much smaller download files, and then we usually download the files ourselves and test them again for integrity. We're commited to have these downloads up on Microsoft Downloads ASAP.
  • Great Video! Are there any enhancements to Smart Clients / Click Once? One of the things I wish gets added is forms based authentication for click once apps i.e. if I launch a click once app from an already authenticated ASP.NET page, it should work fine, else should give an appropriate error.

    Thanks,
    Vaibhav

  • Alexei PavlovBlackTiger If you stumbled and fell down, it doesn't mean yet, that you're going in the wrong direction.
    Find a huge bug in 30 seconds...

    It hangs on creating new WPF application.
    "Initializing Toolbox...", consuming HUGE amount of memory, taking 30-45% of CPU. I've killed "devenv.exe" when it consumed 500 MB of RAM with no any respose.


    Good attempt, MS! Even Beta1 must me workabe enough.
    You have PERFECT testers! Cool

    Software: Orcas Beta1 from MSDN, Vista.
  • BlackTiger wrote:
    Find a huge bug in 30 seconds...

    It hangs on creating new WPF application.
    "Initializing Toolbox...", consuming HUGE amount of memory, taking 30-45% of CPU. I've killed "devenv.exe" when it consumed 500 MB of RAM with no any respose.


    Good attempt, MS! Even Beta1 must me workabe enough.
    You have PERFECT testers!

    Software: Orcas Beta1 from MSDN, Vista.


    I am not able to create WPF projects (application and web based) using Visual C# express 9.0. It simply says that the project type is not supported :O

  • Vesuviusvesuvius Count Orlock
    anand.t wrote:
    
    I am not able to create WPF projects (application and web based) using Visual C# express 9.0. It simply says that the project type is not supported



    My heart sank yesterday when I tried this with the Visual C# Codename "Orcas" Express Edition CTP, and I determined that It would just a matter of time before another user encountered the error. the steps are,

    FILE->NEW PROJECT->WPF APPLICATION->OK..............

    The error message is: The project file 'c:\Documents and Settings\My Name\Local Settings\Temp\WPFApplication1.csproj' cannot be opened.

    The project type is not supported by this installation...OK? - HELP?

    Similar error encountered when attaempting creation of a WPFBrowser App, steps are,

    FILE->NEW PROJECT->WPF BROWSER APPLICATION->OK..............

    The error message is: The project file 'c:\Documents and Settings\My Name\Local Settings\Temp\JSJ1Q5NK.ZCZ\temp\WPFBrowserApplication1.csproj' cannot be opened.

    The project type is not supported by this installation...OK? - HELP?

    I know this is just the Express CTP but if the problem is prevalent and pervades the full Orcas beta 1, please save me the time and effort and advise this thread!

    VWD Express "Orcas" appears fine though with the new WCFService and Expression Web editing tools. Best of all changing between design-split-code views is brisk!
  • Christian Liensbergerlittleguru <3 Seattle
    BlackTiger wrote:
    Find a huge bug in 30 seconds...

    It hangs on creating new WPF application.
    "Initializing Toolbox...", consuming HUGE amount of memory, taking 30-45% of CPU. I've killed "devenv.exe" when it consumed 500 MB of RAM with no any respose.


    Good attempt, MS! Even Beta1 must me workabe enough.
    You have PERFECT testers!

    Software: Orcas Beta1 from MSDN, Vista.


    You understand what beta means? right?
  • Vesuviusvesuvius Count Orlock
    vesuvius wrote:
    
    anand.t wrote:
    I am not able to create WPF projects (application and web based) using Visual C# express 9.0. It simply says that the project type is not supported



    My heart sank yesterday when I tried this with the Visual C# Codename "Orcas" Express Edition CTP, and I determined that It would just a matter of time before another user encountered the error. the steps are,

    FILE->NEW PROJECT->WPF APPLICATION->OK..............

    The error message is: The project file 'c:\Documents and Settings\My Name\Local Settings\Temp\WPFApplication1.csproj' cannot be opened.

    The project type is not supported by this installation...OK? - HELP?

    Similar error encountered when attaempting creation of a WPFBrowser App, steps are,

    FILE->NEW PROJECT->WPF BROWSER APPLICATION->OK..............

    The error message is: The project file 'c:\Documents and Settings\My Name\Local Settings\Temp\JSJ1Q5NK.ZCZ\temp\WPFBrowserApplication1.csproj' cannot be opened.

    The project type is not supported by this installation...OK? - HELP?

    I know this is just the Express CTP but if the problem is prevalent and pervades the full Orcas beta 1, please save me the time and effort and advise this thread!

    VWD Express "Orcas" appears fine though with the new WCFService and Expression Web editing tools. Best of all changing between design-split-code views is brisk!


    I resolved to install this on my day-to-day XP machine and both problem above are now unprevalent. The only installation difference is that I've got Visual Studio, C# express and VWD express with SQL advanced SQL server express and .NET frameworks 2 and 3. The first install on my other pc had none of this software I've just mentioned.

    Anyhow don't fancy wasting my weekend faffing about with a long  uninstallation and yet another huge download, but there's an installation gremlin that needs to be found out!
  • Alexei PavlovBlackTiger If you stumbled and fell down, it doesn't mean yet, that you're going in the wrong direction.
    littleguru wrote:
    
    BlackTiger wrote:Find a huge bug in 30 seconds...

    It hangs on creating new WPF application.
    "Initializing Toolbox...", consuming HUGE amount of memory, taking 30-45% of CPU. I've killed "devenv.exe" when it consumed 500 MB of RAM with no any respose.


    Good attempt, MS! Even Beta1 must me workabe enough.
    You have PERFECT testers!

    Software: Orcas Beta1 from MSDN, Vista.


    You understand what beta means? right?


    Beta1 means - "it almost finished and 80% of features works well without significant issues". Cool
  • Christian Liensbergerlittleguru <3 Seattle
    BlackTiger wrote:
    Beta1 means - "it almost finished and 80% of features works well without significant issues".


    Means it is not ready yet. You don't even get a "go life" license, which means you can't use it for deployment. Beta has meant once something, before all this web 2.0 beta crap. - sorry to say that - but everything is beta in web 2.0
  • I had encountered this same problem and found help on the MSDN forums, a patch should be released soon i have been told, However the following works.

    1) Open a cmd window at C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\Common7\IDE

    2) Type "regsvr32.exe ProjectAggregator.dll".


    the only remaining issue that i have found is the lack of a workflow designer, or assemblies and i have not received any kind of answer if this will be available or not.

  • Re: Did you know you can write VS2003/2005 applications in Orcas?, You can't write .NET 1.1 (aka VS2003) applications in Orcas.  It supports .NET 2.0, 3.0, and 3.5.
  • littleguru wrote:
    
    BlackTiger wrote: Find a huge bug in 30 seconds...

    It hangs on creating new WPF application.
    "Initializing Toolbox...", consuming HUGE amount of memory, taking 30-45% of CPU. I've killed "devenv.exe" when it consumed 500 MB of RAM with no any respose.


    Good attempt, MS! Even Beta1 must me workabe enough.
    You have PERFECT testers!

    Software: Orcas Beta1 from MSDN, Vista.


    You understand what beta means? right?


    the march CTP i downloaded was better than this Big Smile Probably MSFT released the wrong version in march (Beta instead of CTP) so now they released the CTP Cool

    Anyway I am gonna uninstall this and going to go back to the march CTP. Hope I have the download somewhere.

    EDIT:  Filed a bug report
  • If you’re having problems creating WPF or WPF browser applications with Visual C# Express and Visual Basic Express, you may be running into an issue that we know about (http://blogs.msdn.com/johnmont/archive/2007/04/19/visual-studio-express-quot-orcas-quot-available.aspx). We expect to have a patch for this issue, specific to creating WPF or WPF browser application from VC# Express or VB Express, available shortly. If you’re having other issues, please do visit  http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=169&SiteID=1.

  • Alexei PavlovBlackTiger If you stumbled and fell down, it doesn't mean yet, that you're going in the wrong direction.
    kuprishuz wrote:
    I had encountered this same problem and found help on the MSDN forums, a patch should be released soon i have been told, However the following works.

    1) Open a cmd window at C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\Common7\IDE

    2) Type "regsvr32.exe ProjectAggregator.dll".


    the only remaining issue that i have found is the lack of a workflow designer, or assemblies and i have not received any kind of answer if this will be available or not.



    Seems doesn't works for me (Orcas from MSDN, not "express"). Still "Initializing Toolbox..."
  • Interesting video. I've seen a demo of Visual Studio 'Orcas' by Scott Guthrie, and I was impressed by the better designer, and the new LINQ-functionality. I hope their will be an ongoing engagement to improve the designer in future versions, because designing a nice web interface is still somewhat a hassle in Visual Studio, and not every firm has the luxury of having a designer team at their service.
  • Vesuviusvesuvius Count Orlock
    toontje wrote:
    Interesting video. I've seen a demo of Visual Studio 'Orcas' by Scott Guthrie, and I was impressed by the better designer, and the new LINQ-functionality. I hope their will be an ongoing engagement to improve the designer in future versions, because designing a nice web interface is still somewhat a hassle in Visual Studio, and not every firm has the luxury of having a designer team at their service.


    In that demo (I'm sure theres only the one Linq/Orcas vid)I'm sure he shows the new Expression Web features being added to Orcas. You have a new CSS designer that was in Expression Web that adds a lot of tools to ease the design process. What would be great was if there was a utility that updated all your <div> tags with layers which is what Expression Web is all about. Re-editing an existing web template is a bit of a pain, unless theres a setting i've missed.
  • I worked already a bit with Expression Web, and it's an intuitive css designer indeed. Something I do miss a lot in Visual Studio 2005, is Intellisense for your style definitions, so that if you add a style-class to an html element, you don't have to look up every time your style classes in the css-stylesheet. This is a feature that is already for a long time available in other html-designers (ie DreamWeaver), but luckily it's now alsow available in Expression Web.

    Concerning the Orcas demo, I saw Guthrie demonstrate Orcas live in Belgium (Mechelen).

  • CharlesCharles Welcome Change
    JChung2006 wrote:
    Re: Did you know you can write VS2003/2005 applications in Orcas?, You can't write .NET 1.1 (aka VS2003) applications in Orcas.  It supports .NET 2.0, 3.0, and 3.5.


    Sorry about the mix up...
  • Tommy CarlierTommyCarlier Widen your gaze
    Toontje, I loved the Guthrie demo. He sure knows his stuff.
  • Hi - the Express ISO's should be available as of tonight.
    The VSTS, VSPro, and TFS ISO's should be available in the next day or two.
    Thank you,
    Carol
  • If anyone can help me with my query about Orcas:
    http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=303464

    I would very much appreciate it.
  • Soma's enthusiasm made the interview quite enjoyable.  It is good to have a separate beta for the express editions.  Although there are some bugs, my experience so far has been pretty good.  It is good to have the WPF visual designer and it looks like WF designer is also included.  However, the situation with the Entity Framework is unclear.  The samples can be compiled with the express edition and they seem to work.  But the documentation and the command line tool needed to generate the framework files (edmGen.exe) are not included.

    Is the plan to restrict the EDM support to the professional versions of Visual Studio?  I can see the argument for doing that and I expect I would be quite satisified playing with SqlMetal.exe and linq to SQL.  On the other hand, I suspect that it is to Microsoft's advantage to try to make the entity framework the standard API for data driven applications as quickly as possible.  In any case, there needs to be clarity about what is in what edition and what is not.

  • Are we going to be able to work with VS2003 projects without converting them at a later date or was the line about "Did you know you can write VS2003/2005 applications in Orcas?" just a mistake? 

    VS2005 and Orcas are much better tools, but my company has some large projects that were started before 2.0 shipped and moving them to 2.0 isn't feasable.  I was really excited when I saw that Orcas was supposed to be able to compile to 1.1 apps, but my  bubble was burst after installing the beta.  (Which only finally showed up on my subscriber downloads last night)

    Please let us know if compiling to 1.1 will be an option.  I am sure I am not alone on this.

  • CharlesCharles Welcome Change
    korendir wrote:
    

    Are we going to be able to work with VS2003 projects without converting them at a later date or was the line about "Did you know you can write VS2003/2005 applications in Orcas?" just a mistake? 

    VS2005 and Orcas are much better tools, but my company has some large projects that were started before 2.0 shipped and moving them to 2.0 isn't feasable.  I was really excited when I saw that Orcas was supposed to be able to compile to 1.1 apps, but my  bubble was burst after installing the beta.  (Which only finally showed up on my subscriber downloads last night)

    Please let us know if compiling to 1.1 will be an option.  I am sure I am not alone on this.



    That was my mistake. My apologies.
    C
  • We now have patches available for some of the problems folks are having with creating WPF applications and WPF browser applications using the April CTP of VB Express and VC# Express (this is the "beta 1"-era release of Express). You can check out

    http://blogs.msdn.com/johnmont/archive/2007/04/26/wpf-patches-for-vb-and-vc-express-ready.aspx for the links to the patches.

    Hope this helps.

    John

  • Alexei PavlovBlackTiger If you stumbled and fell down, it doesn't mean yet, that you're going in the wrong direction.
    As Roland Walter said (Thanks Roland!) - it's just a VERY LONG FIRST START. After ~15 minutes of "Initializing ToolBox" VS has been started.

    No any issues on next starts.

    PS: Stange things happens. On my second PC (less powerfull than 1st one) VS started MUCH MORE faster...
  • I saw someone is already talking about Orcas Beta 2. Where can I find it?

    Betaland.net

  • Hi Soma -
    I glad to know someone who is informed.  Can you direct me to where I can help on my problem below. 

    A visual studio Just-In-Time Debugger message ( An unhandled win32 exception failed.  No installed debugger has Just in time enabled) pops up whenever I attempt to launch any program on my computer.  I am running windows 2k server.   Can I make a change to registry or is their a quick fix out to address this problem?

    Thanks[C]

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