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S. Somasegar (Soma) and Scott Guthrie on Orcas Beta 2: What's in it?

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Visual Studio 2008 Code Name "Orcas" Beta 2 has just hit the wire and, since it's Beta 2, this means VS2008 is feature complete (oh, and it's GoLive! as well)!!!

"Orcas" represents a major evolution for Visual Studio and our suite of .NET languages. Who better to talk about what's new in "Orcas" than our friends S. Somasegar (Everybody calls him Soma), VP of the Developer Division (the group that makes all of our development technologies), and Scott Guthrie, General Manager and one of Microsoft's most prolific employees (now a senior manager, but he keeps his hands in the technologies he and team build and innovate).

Here, we talk about what's new, exactly, why you (the developer) should care about it, what's changed from Beta 1 to Beta 2, what's the general process of building "Orcas" (we will dig deeper into this with the folks who drive the new, improved development process in the Developer Division), how feature cut decisions are made.

In this conversation, Scott makes a very interesting comment about the state of .NET languages like VB9 and C# 3.0: In his mind, they represent the most dramatic change since .NET 1.0 in terms of power and productivity.

As always, it's great to chat with Soma and Scott. DevDiv is loaded with talent, from top to bottom.

Play with Beta 2!

Enjoy.

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  • ChadkChadk excuse me - do you has a flavor?

    Congratz on the new milestone. Im so downloading this beta!!! Big Smile

  • Nicholas Swiateckiswiatecki .net - love it
    Been waiting for this all day long :] Almost too good to be true Big Smile

    Congrats
  • figuerresfiguerres ???

    Hmm... must check this out!

    and see if the GoLive! is now or a later rev.

    too bad I don't have the time to submit a pile of bug reps etc... like I did in the VS2005 time frame... Still have a VS2005 Cube from Soma and crew... Smiley  the "thanks for all the testing" thing they sent out after the final cut.

  • Gilbert Corralesgsamiq Samiq
    Amazing work u guys have done! Watching ScottGu talking about the new features takes the chills on me on the amount of work these guys have done!

    Congrats.

    [... Update2: Channel9 has a great video here with an interview with Soma and ScottGu talking about what's new and what is there to expect with this new release...] Pingback from Samiq Bits
  • figuerresfiguerres ???
    figuerres wrote:
    

    Hmm... must check this out!

    and see if the GoLive! is now or a later rev.

    too bad I don't have the time to submit a pile of bug reps etc... like I did in the VS2005 time frame... Still have a VS2005 Cube from Soma and crew...   the "thanks for all the testing" thing they sent out after the final cut.



    Sweet.... it is a "GoLive!"  that's major!!
  • Would it be possible to get a lower resolution version of this video?  With these large files, on my machine at least, the video is completely unwatchable.
  • CharlesCharles Welcome Change
    moonwalkercs wrote:
    Would it be possible to get a lower resolution version of this video?  With these large files, on my machine at least, the video is completely unwatchable.


    Are you playing the streaming video? It's multi-bit rate encoded for exactly this reason (I am assuming your internet connection is slow).

    We will be providing more bit rate options in the future (so, you'll be able to choose High Quality or Low Quality files). But this won't be the case for a while.
  • i'll be definitely checking out vs2008 beta 2. one thing though i didn't like at all about this interview: c++ didn't get mentioned. it's so frustrating to me.
    c# and vb do have a great story with linq, with office integration with new language features etc etc.
    i know that all of these features are much harder to accomplish or not allowed with native c++ (as the comittee decides on language features). i also understand that there have been some improvements to mfc 8 and a better integration story with managed code (which in itself is a huge effort i must admit) and debugger enhancements. But, let's face it, most IDEs including VS are not making a lot of progress in terms of helping the c++ developer. I think its much harder to come up with good ideas how to make the lives of c++ devs easier.
     I still enjoy writing stuff in native c++. i've learned to live with the fact that my apps tend to look a lot more simple than anything i could create with windows forms or wpf. but then there are companies like e.g. intel that innovate in the c++ library space and in the c++ tool space (threading tools just to mention one area).
    i don't see that kind of innovation from microsoft, unfortunately. why not create the majority of new c++ related tools as libraries outside the VS sku? why integrate these things (like the new marshal_as stuff) into the sku?
    a graphical tool using the DSL designer of vs 2008 that generates stubs for an mpi application? make some space at codegear and maintain it. that would be an example how to share innovation with the c++ folks (it doesn't even need to be free and open source. look at intel's model. well.. they don't have an IDE to build.. i know..)

    again: i know that native c++ cannot participate in the glory of wpf, wcf, wwf that easily. but make it shine through superior tools instead. marketing hasn't picked that one up, yet.

    thanks, Charles for that interview! made download the bits right away.  this is not meant to be lame c++ fanatic critizism (i admit it sounds a bit like that Wink). i'm just still feeling that c++ needs a bit of a boost Wink... please don't be offended anyone. it's just my opinion on the recent developments in VS but i admit: a strong opinion.

    cheers,
    martin



  • William Staceystaceyw Before C# there was darkness...

    Thank you, thank you guys!  Looks to be the best yet.  I have been chomping ever few hours waiting for this one.  Been wanting to use the linq class model on a db app and use the sql ce sync designer.  Hopefully, this all works out.  I would like to see more tutorials on linq and databinding and local ce and remote sql solutions.  Have a few out, but need some more coverage.

    Great!!

  • William Staceystaceyw Before C# there was darkness...

    Installing.  What is the "Microsoft Document Explorer 2008" ?  tia

  • Microsoft Document Explorer is the on-line help application that comes with Visual Studio.
  • Top stuff guys - you've just made my day! Smiley

    I just have one request... Could you please do some of the Visual Studio / Tools development at Microsoft UK so us Brit's come work for you! Smiley
  • William Staceystaceyw Before C# there was darkness...
    Is sql ce 3.5 supposed to be installed?  I am getting errors trying to create a ce db in vs2008 and trying to use the localCache project item.  It acts like 3.5 is not installed. 
    "Microsoft Synchronization services does not appear to be installed"

    Trying a reinstall now.
  • I'll add my support to Martin here.  C++ is clearly become the red-headed stepchild of the VS requirement teams.  Many, many apps are still done in native C++ and C++/CLI offers a somewhat painful approach to the .NET libraries. 

    Where's my C++ refactoring support??!!!!!  Unit testing support? MSBuild support?  all missing.

    John
  • schroedl wrote:
    C++/CLI offers a somewhat painful approach to the .NET libraries.

    What's painful about the approach taken for C++/CLI and its interface with the .NET libraries?  This would be some good feedback to send to the C++/CLI and VS teams.
  • schroedl wrote:
    I'll add my support to Martin here.  C++ is clearly become the red-headed stepchild of the VS requirement teams.  Many, many apps are still done in native C++ and C++/CLI offers a somewhat painful approach to the .NET libraries. 

    Where's my C++ refactoring support??!!!!!  Unit testing support? MSBuild support?  all missing.

    John


    Refactoring?  Good luck with that.  C++ is a difficult beast to parse, made nearly impossible when you add in the preprocessor.  Theoretically, this sort of functionality would be possible, but the effort to implement it seems to great to be worth it to me.

    Unit testing?  What support do you want?  There's not a HUGE amount of support for other languages.  If you just want a testing framework, OK, but with out reflection don't expect these libraries to be all that user friendly Wink.

    MSBuild?  Now there's one I can agree with you on.  I thought this had been promised with the next version, but I've had no reason to check if Orcas did anything here.  If they didn't, I'll back you on this complaint.
  • Steve Teixeirastevetei Parallel Computing Platform
    mwirth, schroedl, wkempf, and the other C++ C9ers:

    Indeed, it's hard to disagree with you that C++ doesn't get the same air time as some of the shiny new stuff, but really it's because we know that C++ developers are secure and self-confident in their own coolness and don't need all of that public relations stuff to tell them they're cool.  Smiley

    On a more serious note, we've discussed all of the major new C++ stuff coming in Orcas on C9 in the recent past, including:

    Marshaling library and new MFC features
    STL/CLR
    Safe C++ Libraries

    Also, Bill Dunlap and I did a C9 video a couple of months back that talked more generally about the future of VC++.

    Regarding some of the other topics you guys brought up, let me talk about those briefly as well:

    Refactoring: Great C++ refactoring support is absolutely something that is in our long terms plans for Visual Studio.  However, it's not something we can deliver in the box today because of legacy architectural issues.  Two bits of good news on this front, though: 1. One of our major investments for the Orcas+1 product is to completely overhaul the C++ plumbing within the Visual Studio IDE, with the goals of improving the performance and scalability of existing features (e.g., Intellisense) and unlocking new scenarios for us in the future (e.g., Refactoring).  2. Meanwhile, we have partnered with Developer Express to deliver C++ support in their Refactor! for Visual Studio product.  You can get Refactor! today to add C++ refactoring support to your VS2005 experience.

    Unit testing: VS2005 supports unit testing of C++ code today, albeit with the limitations that the test harnesses and test generation must be C++/CLI code.  We've been talking a lot with the Visual Studio Test team about adding first-class native C++ support to the mix as well, but I don't have any news to report on this front as of yet.  Meanwhile, there are also viable third party alternatives such as cppunit you might wish to investigate.

    MSBuild: MSBuild support for VC++ is actually something we're working on right now.  Unfortunately, we weren't able to complete this work in time for Orcas, but we are looking at creative ways we might be able to deliver some of this work to customers, perhaps in CTP format, well before the Orcas+1 release.

    I hope this helps, and - by the way - I always love to see you C++ fans telling Soma and Charles that we need to get more VC++ and native code content out there!  Wink

    Steve Teixeira
    Group Program Manager, VC++
  • thanks for taking the time, steve!  i can't help it but whenever i watch a video of visual studio guys (deservedly!) praising their product i almost explode and shout "what about c++ ?!".
    we c++ dudes are happy when we've got squiggly lines below spelling errors Wink
    thanks again for your reply!

    Happy weekend!
    Martin
  • amotifamotif No Silver Bullet
    stevetei wrote:
    ...we know that C++ developers are secure and self-confident in their own coolness and don't need all of that public relations stuff to tell them they're cool. 


    I like to think we're also less distracted by bright, shiny objects. Tongue Out
  • figuerres wrote:
    Still have a VS2005 Cube from Soma and crew...

    Oh, how I miss my ACE cube! A month ago my little son dropped it from the desk and it broke in dozen of pieces. I was so sad! I am not begging but I wish I could get a replacement Wink

    I am also dowloading beta 2 at home, using Avalanche. Very cool stuff!

  • Bart De Smetbdesmet Bart De Smet ​[MSFT::SQL::​Cloud​Programmabi​lity::Rx]

    Hi folks,

    For those of you interested in the LINQ to SharePoint project mentioned by Scott in this video (thanks Scott!), take a look at www.codeplex.com/LINQtoSharePoint. Although we're still in the alpha stage, it's already worth to check out if you're targeting SharePoint list data in your .NET apps. Next week, we'll sync up with Orcas Beta 2, followed by a new alpha release mid August.

    Have fun with Beta 2,

    -Bart

  • JohnAskewJohnAskew 9 girl in pink sweater
    "Feature Complete".

    "Feature Set" must be the lowest common denominator both coders, analysts, and users share. Software design jargon:

    Test Driven Development, Feature Sets, (Goals), Tasks.

    Rocky Lhotka spoke about TDD and the Software Factories published by Patterns & Practices, saying that tests generated for factory-generated code were superfluous.

    No assertion like this could be made without first knowing the publishers themselves insure quality through TDD, imho.

    I would like to see more evangelism for TDD and the focus upon Feature Set and customer interactivity.

    We need guidance to model from your success.

    Danke.
  • BasBas It finds lightbulbs.

    Great video Charles! Very informative.

    Tried out the new beta last night... first major disappointment: still no quickwatch in C# Express... Dang. Looking forward to exploring the new features, though.

  • schroedl wrote:
    
    Where's my C++ refactoring support??!!!!! 
    John


    DevExpress provide a free refactoring tool for C++.

    http://www.devexpress.com/Products/NET/IDETools/RefactorCPP/

    I don't know whether there is an agreement between Microsoft and DevExpress, as there is for Refactor! for VB 2005.

    (OK, I didn't spot Steve Teixeira's on this above.)



  • William Staceystaceyw Before C# there was darkness...

    Pretty sweet guys.  Have been using it and the linq support and other features are fantastic.  Some feedback so far:

    1) Today Carot dissappeared like in vs2005 bug.  Seems to be a delay thing as it appeared again after ~1 minute or so.  Don't know how to repro yet.

    2) Naturally, SqlCe needs LinqToSql designer/provider support.

    3) A property dropper (ala Expression) would be cool to copy properties between controls.

    4) The help explorer is much snapper to load on F1.  Very nice.  Naturally some missing links (i.e. foreach), but I suspect that is WIP.

    I will try to keep a list going.  Well done folks.

  • thedebuggerthedebugger _thedebugger
    Hello Sir,

    Orcus beta 2 is amazing. and its toooooo fast. thanks for such nice product.

    Sachin
  • I'm running it now and importing all my projects.  I was afraid to do beta 1 but beta 2 seems solid.  Also seems much faster than 2005 and overall just better in many ways.

    Great job guys!
  • Whoa - I stopped watching orcas when Expressions came out - didn't think that it was going on to a full blown VS2k8, lol!

    Downloading now to see how vb.net has changed - I just hope the changes aren't as drastic as those between VS2k3 and 2005, I spent quite a few months working out how to upgrade one site that had just over a hundred incompatibilities...

    May be a few weeks until I post back on it though, since I have a pile of stuff to get through before I can get to it.

    chores, chores, chores...! Wink

  • Seems like the WPF designer still needs work.  I was building C# WPF test apss and ran into a variety of issues.

  • Dean_186Dean_186 Future is Clear.... Microsoft
    So who won on the game.  I seen the reflection of the TV in the Picture Tongue Out
  • CharlesCharles Welcome Change
    EddaRuss wrote:
    Seems like the WPF designer still needs work.  I was building C# WPF test apss and ran into a variety of issues.



    Please report the issues, my friend! The VS team will want to know about them.
    C
  • Hello,

    I have just dowloaded visual 2008. I wonder if there are "coach samples" (same as in http://msdn2.microsoft.com/fr-fr/teamsystem/bb383583.aspx) for visual 2008.


    Ed
  • I, too, have long felt that Microsoft has neglected the C++ development community. It's yet another case of MS pounding hard on the "new vision" (managed code, in this case) and forgetting that a huge percentage of Windows applications today are written in native code and ignoring that native code is a good fit for many new apps as well.

    Every day, I see developers in various forums asking "What can I use to develop native applications?". And it's absurd, because the automatic answer should be VC++, but it's impossible to really recommend because MS has effectively abandoned it. So developers are increasingly turning to Delphi or begrudgingly accepting managed code solutions, whether they're a good fit or not.

  • Beta 2 is very Beta Smiley i mean very buggy,

    1. it closes randomly, when working with WPF designer
    2. kinda love the WPF designer, could be better... like why the UI working area is so small!!! when you don't set the height and width properties? if you try to enlarge it eventualy working area is enlarging but height and width properties are also changing, wich is not good, please fix that
    3. a little code writting doesnt hurt but in Windows Forms there was a Events tab in properties windows, its missing in properties window for WPF designer...
  • Charles wrote:
    
    EddaRuss wrote:
    Seems like the WPF designer still needs work.  I was building C# WPF test apss and ran into a variety of issues.



    Please report the issues, my friend! The VS team will want to know about them.
    C
    where? forgot...
  • Ion Todirel wrote:
    
    Charles wrote:
    
    EddaRuss wrote:
    Seems like the WPF designer still needs work.  I was building C# WPF test apss and ran into a variety of issues.



    Please report the issues, my friend! The VS team will want to know about them.
    C
    where? forgot...
    you mean http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/Feedback wich is not working?
  • Hi all,
     
    For those who are interested in LINQ, please, visit: http://www.perpetuumsoft.com/Product.aspx?lang=en&pid=55

    I guess everybody know that LINQ to SQL doesn’t provide ability to automatically synchronize database structure with object model; this is usually done manually by the developer.

    I think that's the solution.

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