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Where is WinFS now?

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WinFS was an ambitious effort to embed an integrated storage engine into the Windows operating system, and use it to create a shared data ecosystem. Although WinFS never shipped as a part of Windows, many of the underlying technologies have shipped, or will ship, in SQL Server and in other products. In this interview Quentin Clark traces the lineage of those technologies back to WinFS, and forward to their current incarnations.

Quentin Clark led the WinFS project from 2002 to 2006. He's now a general manager in the SQL Server organization.


JU: You made a fascinating remark last time we spoke, which was that most of WinFS either already has shipped, or will ship. I think that would surprise a lot of people, and I'd like to hear more about what you meant by that.

QC: WinFS was about a lot of things. In part it was about trying to create something for the Windows platform and ecosystem around shared data between applications. Let's set that aside, because that part's not shipping.

JU: So you mean schemas that would define contacts, and other kinds of shared entities?

QC: Yeah. That's a mechanism, a technology required for that shared data platform. Now the notion of having that shared data platform as part of Windows isn't something we're delivering on this turn of the crank.

We may choose to do that sometime in the future, based on the technology we're finishing up here, in SQL, but it's not on the immediate roadmap.

JU: OK.

QC: Now let's look under the covers, and ask what was required to deliver on that goal. It's about schemas, it's about integrated storage, it's about object/relational, a bunch of things. And that's the layer you can look at and say, OK, the WinFS project, which went from ... well, it depends who you ask, but I think it went from 2002 until we shut it down in 2006 ... what was the technology that was being built for that effort, in order to meet those goals? And what happened to all that stuff?

You can catalog that stuff, and look at work that we're doing now for SQL Server 2008, or ADO.NET, or VS 2008 SP1, and trace its lineage back to WinFS.

JU: Let's do that.

QC: OK. I guess we can start at the top, with schemas. We're not doing anything with schemas. At the end of the WinFS project we had settled on a set of schemas. It was a very typical computer science problem, where the schemas started out as a super-small set of things, and then became the inclusion of all possible angles, properties, and interests of anybody interested in that topic whatsoever. We wound up with a contact schema with 200 or 300 properties.

Then by the time we shipped the WinFS beta we were back down to that super-small subset. Here's the 10 things about people that you need to know in common across applications.

But all that stuff is gone. The schemas, and a layer that we internally referred to as base, which was about the enforcement of the schemas, all that stuff we've put on the shelf. Because we didn't need it. It was for that particular application of all this other technology.

So that's the one piece that didn't go anywhere.

Next layer down is the APIs. The WinFS APIs were a precursor to a more generalized set of object/relational APIs, which is now shipping as what we call entity framework in ADO.NET.

What's getting delivered as part of VS 2008 SP1 is an expression of that, which allows you to describe your business objects in an abstract way, using a fairly generalized entity/relationship model. In fact we got best paper at SIGMOD last year on the model, it's a very good piece of work.

So you describe your business entities in that way, with a particular formal language...

JU: For people who haven't seen this, how would you characterize that language?

QC: It's pretty standard entity-relational. It's really a matter of describing to the system a set of properties and collections and relationships among entities. The important thing we tell people is to describe their entities as they think about them. Not as they think they should be expressed in a fully normalized database schema, and not as they need to program to them as objects, but in terms of how they think about them, and want to be able to report on them, or interact with them.

From there we can derive objects you can program against, we can derive schemas to build a store of them.

The traceback to WinFS is that we had a very fixed way of doing this for a particular set of entities. We built the schema around items, and items were entities that had relationships to other items. We built this whole model on a more generic substrate that we never expressed.

So we said OK, we didn't ship the WinFS APIs, but we have this asset, a more generalized expression framework for entities, let's figure out how to finish that work up, and get that delivered as part of the next ADO release.

This stuff is now very well integrated with LINQ. You can do LINQ to relational, where LINQ will look down into the database, look at the schemas that are there, and express that directly up into LINQ. Or you can do LINQ to entities, which allows you to have a layer of abstraction between what you're programming to and your underlying physical database schema.

That work is ongoing, we're getting good feedback, we'll see how far it takes us.

JU: How much continuity is there in terms of the team?

QC: A lot. When I did the reorg, I had an Excel sheet of everyone in the organization and where we were moving them to. Last I looked at it, 80-plus percent of the team was still in SQL somewhere.

One of the interesting things about WinFS was that we started hiring a different kind of person. The database team is full of traditional hardcore systems database guys. When we did WinFS we were looking for a different thing.

JU: In fact you don't consider yourself to be a hardcore database guy, right?

QC: Right. I'm a good example. I started at Microsoft in the Word group, and went from there to IIS to something called Application Center, worked on the manageability technologies for a while, and then was asked to come over and do WinFS. So my background was much more about how to use databases, how do you build apps around them, and not so much what are the internal algorithms you should use for bitmap indexing.

Of course we had a lot of folks from the core database team, but we hired a lot of folks that had experience with compilers, with user interfaces, with building apps on the database. A lot of those folks who were leading the API effort for WinFS are now leading the API effort for all of SQL.

So that's the story for the API team. As for the rest of it, well, there's obviously a big chunk around file systems. If you want to do this shared data model, you want it to be applicable to all data, not just things you can express relationally. So we had to figure out how to merge database constructs with file systems.

A lot of people thought this was impossible, and would harken back to Cairo and various other projects announced and unannounced to the public world around integrated storage, that didn't necessarily produce fruit.

We had one key advantage. We found an architectural approach that allowed us to control the semantics, and provide transactional database consistency over the files that were involved, while still allowing the file system to be in control when it came to file-handle-level operations.

We did it with a kernel driver that allowed us to control the namespace, and keep the database involved. The database lives up in user mode. As far as the operating system is concerned, there's no difference between SQL Server and Microsoft Word. They're high-level user-mode apps that occasionally drop down and make requests of the kernel.

So there was a fundamental disconnect. How do we maintain control over this low-level system concept, the file system, by a user-mode app? We built a kernel-level driver to communicate back to the user-mode SQL process. It had a cache of what things should look like, and what things are in what state, but it was there along the API path for the file system, to allow it to control the namespace operations over files that were "in" WinFS.

People would often ask me if WinFS was a file system, and I'd struggle with the answer to that, because, well, you know, from a certain standpoint the answer is yes. The stuff I saw in the shell, was it in the WinFS filesystem? Well, OK. But there are no streams inside the database. So from a user perspective, those files were "in" the filesystem. But from an API perspective it was more nuanced than that. I could still use the Win32 APIs, get some file, open it, and from that point forward the semantics were exactly like NTFS. Because it was NTFS at that point.

There was a certain place along the API chain where the database was completely out of the way. This allowed us to get the perfect compatibility that had tripped up other integrated storage efforts in the past. Other efforts tried to get this compatibility by emulating all the Win32 APIs, which is tough. And the performance bar is very high.

JU: So how does this carry forward, if it does?

QC: It does. That approach was so good that we decided to generalize it for SQL Server 2008, as a feature called filestream. It's basically a new kind of blob support for the database. You configure a column for filestream, you can take a file and insert it as a record, you get back a file handle, you can stream things into that file handle. You can do queries and get back file handles, and get streaming API-level NTFS performance on the files you put in there.

What we have not done is the namespace support. So you don't get to walk through a directory of files. You examine a row, you ask that row to give you back the right token, you start doing the Win32 operations on it.

But the rest is integrated. You back up the database, you back up the filestream. From most perspectives -- except mirroring, which we didn't get to fully integrating -- it looks like any other blob.

JU: Where do you see that being used to good effect?

QC: Right now there's a choice people have to make. There's a size limit on blobs in the database, because we put them inside database pages, and that leads to a performance problem as well. If you want to pull a 2-gigabyte stream out of the database with traditional blobs, it's not as performant as walking up to NTFS and using a file handle. We have to recreate the file by putting together a series of database pages that are themselves a level of indirection on file system pages.

So people today have to make a choice. Do I want the integration with the database, so backup works, my transactional semantics work, all this stuff works, and live with the performance and size limitations. Or do I want the best possible performance, and basically no limitations on size, by putting things in the file system, and then having my application logic figure out how to glue together the database world and these files that are now strewn about the file system. And when I do a backup, then I also have teach my operations guys that when you back up the database your not backing up all the data, you also have to worry about these files the database knows nothing about.

With filestream, people don't have to make the choice. They get the performance they want, with the database integration they expect.

Now the next place to take that, after 2008, is to add Win32 support. So we did this other feature as part of WinFS, which we're calling hierarchical ID. It's a column type, a new column type, which creates hierarchy support in the database.

We did this for WinFS because obviously if you're storing your data in a filesystem-like hierarchy, you need to be able to do things like show me all the stuff in this folder, and answer that query lickety-split. You can't be walking through record by record looking for matches.

JU: Or dealing with the SQL way of expressing hierarchy, which is doable but beyond my comprehension.

QC: Yeah, it's hard. The fundamental problem is that the query processor doesn't understand the concept of path. It understands matches on columns. It can find substrings within records, but it's kind of brute force. You can use fulltext indexing, but...

JU: ... but you don't get containment for free.

QC: That's right. So hierarchical ID is a column type that teaches the optimizer about hierarchy, about path, so you can do queries that find all the things contained within this part of the path.

So we have that feature also shipping in 2008, and there are all sorts of different uses for it. For example, people use it for compliance. They'll create a hierarchy of different confidentialities and compliance levels. This thing is confidential, which is a superset of things that are executive-eyes-only. Hierarchies like that are just out there in the world.

JU: How do you build and visualize them?

QC: You tell us about them. You express the form of your hierarchy, and you populate the records accordingly. But I don't think there's a tool yet.

JU: So there's the filestream piece, and the hierarchical ID piece, and then the Win32 namespace pieces is the shoe that hasn't yet dropped?

QC: That's right. In the next release we anticipate putting those two things together, the filesystem piece and the hierarchical ID piece, into a supported namespace. So you'll be able to type //machinename/sharename, up pops an Explorer window, drag and drop a file into it, go back to the database, type SELECT *, and suddenly a record appears.

Potential uses for that? It's all over the place. Take our own expense reports. We used to have these Excel form templates, and you'd fill it out and submit it to some system. Then we hit a phase where it was all online, so you're on the plane home and too bad for you. But imagine they could reintroduce that template again, and you could save that Excel file directly into the database.

Or more importantly, if you go to edit the thing, you don't have this process where you've taken a copy of the thing, you're editing it, you're sending it back through a mid-tier system that then has to reconcile the database records with the filesystem records. I can just say, oh, I need to add three more things. I double-click, and yes I'm still interacting with some web-based app, but the links I get are real Win32 links. I open the thing, I edit it, I stick it back, everything knows that it was changed within the right transactional semantics.

People are constantly having to bridge between the file world, and the world of data around the files. Providing Win32 support gives developers the opportunity to allow the desktop clients to directly interact with a file that's part of some application, without having to go through all the semantics of the mid-tier.

Are there always going to be some applications that will want to have mid-tier control over every aspect of every part of every workflow? Of course. But from a productivity standpoint, to be able to allow people to build applications more quickly, to be able to customize applications and not have to manage all those semantics themselves, that's huge.

Sync is another topic, but imagine we build the right things around synchronization, so people can take the files offline. It's a major productivity gain. As a developer, you know the consistency of the world you're dealing with. You're not having to create and manage and upload and deal with copying all on your own.

JU: You've alluded to the downside already, which is that it now becomes a new data management discipline that is neither familiar to the people from the filesystem world nor from the database world, it's a hybrid, and that's an obstacle.

QC: Sure, there's a learning curve, as with any other new technology.

So, that's the filesystem piece, and I'm really proud of the work we've done there. We're introducing the kernel driver in 2008, we're giving people this nice marriage between the two worlds, and then we get to take that next step in the next release and give people the complete picture.

I can live with the argument that we don't have integrated storage yet. Yes, we have filestream blobs in the database, which is a big step. We have the performance and the database consistency all in one package, and that's a huge step forward. But when we have Win32, at that point, unarguably, we have integrated storage.

JU: How do you think that plays out as the center of gravity shifts toward the cloud?

QC: There is no app in the world that doesn't need a database. Every cloud app has one under the covers somewhere. One thing we've learned in the last few years is that the fuzziness between structured data and unstructured data is just increasing. The major online apps that I interact with have both. You know, Hotmail has attachments. And they have limitations on attachments because they have trouble managing sizes and whatever else.

We have things now where people can create some space, put some files up there, but man, if you want any metadata around those files, too bad, it's just a dumb blob store.

JU: What I'm getting to here is that, well, part of the challenge for WinFS as originally conceived, with a heavy client component, was: How do you get the network effects? Five years later the center of gravity has shifted, there are shared spaces in the cloud where those effects can happen.

QC: Yes. And I think the technology we're building is underlying technology for the cloud apps. All of our major properties are built on SQL, and they want to use this stuff, we have work going on there, pre-release work to take advantage of these features, because they want them.

From a business standpoint, my first concern is how to provide value to our customers. And those are our customers. The people building the cloud apps are our customers.

Now, beyond that, one of the things we used to say about WinFS was that it was the world's best mashup playground, because you had all the data in one place. In the mashup world you're talking to one service at a time.

Do I think that the opportunity to build applications that solve real end-user problems building on technology like this continues to thrive? Sure.

When I think about the enterprise space, which is primarly where we sell SQL, they want this. They want a repository, and they want it not to be restricted on the types of data it has.

You'd be surprised, SQL's behind some of the biggest cloud services on the planet. And our customers who are building them have been struggling with this structured-versus-unstructured data problem.

Filestream alone gives them the answer. They don't so much need the Win32 aspect, because they have enough app development expertise in the mid-tier to bridge this stuff reasonably well. But they do want the transactional and backup consistencies that filestream gives them.

JU: Is that ultimate mashup playground also a good environment in which to iteratively work out what some key schemas need to be?

QC: Yeah, that leads to another interesting point. Going through the litany of technologies that have come from WinFS, one of them is the notion of what I refer to as semi-structured records. The schema is not necessarily all that well defined at the outset of the application. How does the database handle that? We had built WinFS around a feature called UDTs, which is a column type -- a CLR type system type.

We finished that up, and we built a whole spatial datatype on it in SQL Server 2008, it's all good stuff.

But when we stepped back and looked at the semi-structured data problem in a larger context, beyond the WinFS requirements, we saw the need to extend the top-level SQL type system in that way. Not just UDTs, but to have arbitrary extensibility.

So we did this feature in SQL Server 2008 that we internally refer to as sparse columns. It's a combination of various things. First, a large number of columns. Right now there's a 1024 limit on the number of columns in a single SQL table. We're way widening that out.

That comes of course with the ability to store data that's very sparsely populated across a large number of columns. In SQL Server 2005 we actually allocate space for every column in every row, whether it's filled or not.

JU: This is what the semantic web folks are interested in, right? Having attributes scattered through a sparse matrix?

QC: That's right. And that leads to another thing which we call column groups, which allow you to clump a few of them together and say, that's a thing, I'm going to put a moniker on that and treat it as an equivalence class in some dimension.

Then we have something called filter indices, where instead of creating an index that spans all the records in a table, you can specify what records it applies to.

JU: When it's really cheap to make lots of those equivalences, you get the ability to let people call things however they want to call them. There can be lots of aliases and labels floating around, and people can have their own vocabularies. You don't have to be so rigid about names. As you discover equivalences, you map them, and that's very efficient. Versus trying to get people in committees to agree how to call things, that's the hardest problem in the world. But if you can let people operate in their own semantic namespaces, and then bridge things together...

QC: And that gets back to why the entity data model is so important. It lets people have their own way of describing, programming to, and interacting with the data they want to deal with.

JU: Now what about relationships? In WinFS, a relationship among entities was a first-class object. How does that carry forward?

QC: The notion of a relationship is a first-class object in the entity data model. Now what we haven't done there is bridged an understanding of that into the database itself. Can the query processor understand a relationship, and be optimal for navigating through those semantics? We haven't bridged that part of the world yet. It's certainly possible to create database schemas that allow you to have good query efficiency through your entity model, but it's still intellectual work. We'd like it to be so that the database can look at an EDM schema and create at least the approriate indices so when you are examining things through that lens, we can make sure your experience is optimal.

QC: Finally there's synchronization. It went through a classic computer-science learning curve as well. At first we said, we need to synch with the cloud, with other WinFS instances, with server systems, how hard can this be?

Then we quickly realized how hard this was. What should be more infamous than people breaking their pick on integrated storage is people breaking their pick on multimaster replication. It's an incredibly difficult problem to get right.

Apps that have gotten this right for a particular domain have become wildly popular. Lotus Notes got it right for a particular domain, so did Exchange and Outlook, but a generalized solution has been very elusive.

Anyway, we did a partnership with Microsoft research, and at some point along the arc we solved it fairly well. It's not trivial. This is not something that ends up being a simple solution to this very complex problem. It's actually reasonably sophisticated, but it works, and we built it in as part of the last WinFS beta.

As they realized they were onto something, they started to fork out a componentized version of it that's now finding its way into a bunch of Microsoft products. The official branding is Microsoft Sync Framework. I think they're on target for shipping it in six different products, and for embedding it all over the place.

Building an app like Outlook, from scratch, is hard. You can always interact with your data, when you're connected the thing will always synchronize and reconcile, when it's offline it still provides a consistent experience. To build that from scratch, it's really hard. Taking the sync framework allows people to go and build that experience without having to solve the hard multimaster synchronization problems.

QC: Finally, we'd done a bunch of work to keep the SQL engine tamed and behaving properly on the desktop. Some of that has found its way into SQL Server 2008 and some has not, because there's a less pressing need for it. But for departments, and for SQL Server Express on the desktop, we still want to finish that.

JU: So to wrap up, I'd like you to reflect on how the original environment for WinFS was the end-user desktop, but now the environment in which many of these technologies have come to fruition is the enterprise datacenter and backoffice. How do these worlds yet come together?

QC: I was very happy to be able to take the technology forward, because I saw the broad applicability, not just in the problem space we were working on, but in terms of the general usefulness of the database.

My job is to grow the usefulness of the database. The work we did with WinFS was in line with that, and I'm happy with that, but there's a part of me which is still unfulfilled. Boy, what would it mean if every application could have some shared notions about, for example, the people in my life, that other applications could plug into and use.

Can we express that fully in a cloud way? Maybe. It harkens back to the old Hailstorm ideas. And we have things like Astoria [SQL Server Data Services] that is a projection of entities over the web. That's awfully familiar, both in terms of WinFS and in terms of Hailstorm.

Where it goes, I don't know. We've made a choice right now to incubate some underlying platform technologies for the web, and allow the operating system team to cycle on the stuff that's on their plates right now.

But I think not too long from now we'll come out of those cycles and say, OK, we have all this fundamental technology, what's the next big innovation we can do?

That's kind of where we got tripped up in the Longhorn cycle. We were building too much of the house at once. We had guys working on the roof while we were still pouring concrete for the foundation.

At one point we realized we needed to decouple things. And that really did give this team the freedom to go off and take these underlying technologies, which we believe were fundamental to the database, and get them done correctly.

But I do at some point want to see that place in my heart fulfilled around the shared data ecosystem for users, because I believe the power of that is enormous.

I think we'll get there. But for now we'll let the concrete dry, and get the framing in place, and then we'll see how the rest of the house shapes up.

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