Comment Feed for Channel 9 - Office UI - New Licensing Story

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

Cyonix — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:49:18 GMT

If you really want to make this a standard like the menu bar & toolbar you should release an add-on to Visual Studio (perhaps sign licence agreement before download) that adds these controls.

Please make it part of the standard set of controls

posted by Cyonix

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

jmazner — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:35:25 GMT

I can assure you that the Visual Studio team is thinking about how and when to do this...but it never hurts for them to have more customer input to guide their decisions. In the meantime, we do have a set of component vendors who have already signed up to build Office 2007 UI controls. From the bottom of http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2006/nov06/11-21officeui.mspx (this includes some ISVs as well):

Office UI Licensing Partners

•	90Degree Software
•	Attachmate
•	Falafel Software, Inc.
•	DevComponents LLC
•	Developer Express
•	ILOG, Inc.
•	Infragistics, Inc.
•	Syncfusion Inc.
•	Telerik Corp.
•	Xceed
•	Objective Computing
•	ABB
•	MindJet
•	Serena Software
•	DivElements

posted by jmazner

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

staceyw — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:31:07 GMT

Nice job folks. That makes a lot of sense to me. I agree with Cyonix however. MS needs common ribbon control in VS. Don't want to wait 2 years for 3rd party and pay another 600 for it. That would seem to be the easiest way to get standards going as I assume your own controls would comply. That said, I also assume you are working on just that.

posted by staceyw

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

Wells — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:52:24 GMT

Good interview. Nice camera work Rory.

And it would seem that OpenOffice can't use the ribbon interface. I have nothing against OO but it makes me feel good that they can't just rip off the interface like with previous versions.

posted by Wells

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

JChung2006 — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 02:31:37 GMT

Where is the guidelines document mentioned in the video?

Edit: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/office/aa973809.aspx -- coming soon...

posted by JChung2006

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

Detroit Muscle — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 03:51:41 GMT

Wells wrote:

Good interview. Nice camera work Rory.

And it would seem that OpenOffice can't use the ribbon interface. I have nothing against OO but it makes me feel good that they can't just rip off the interface like with previous versions.

Not using the ribbon UI is one of the major selling points of OpenOffice right now.

posted by Detroit Muscle

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

Cyonix — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:57:23 GMT

Detroit Muscle wrote:

Wells wrote: Good interview. Nice camera work Rory.

And it would seem that OpenOffice can't use the ribbon interface. I have nothing against OO but it makes me feel good that they can't just rip off the interface like with previous versions.

Not using the ribbon UI is one of the major selling points of OpenOffice right now.

Have you actually used office 2007?

Everyone i have shown loves how much easier the interface is to use, and that's from my technical friends to my mum....

Perhaps you could outline the problems with it so as to provide some feedback for the office team.

posted by Cyonix

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

CGH — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 06:04:44 GMT

Hi guys. I was 'number 35' to view, but I hopped into bed [to sleep!] before viewing the whole thing [I live in Glasgow, Scotland and its now 06:00 [AM GMT] and another 800 folk have viewed already!

Great to see Jensen, having had your RSS feed in my Outlook 2007 Beta for the past few months.

Looking forward to my full production version of O2K7.

Ciao

Chas

posted by CGH

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

josephs2877 — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:47:08 GMT

Interesting!!!!

I'm curious to know if the royalty-free license will extend once the ribbon UI is implemented across other Microsoft products (e.g, Dynamics). It makes sense to protect the Office competition, but if I put the ribbon in a CRM product will I lose the license if it competes with another Microsoft product with the ribbon in it?

posted by josephs2877

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

Paul D. Murphy — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:12:35 GMT

What a bunch of BS. Microsoft can no more license the look and feel of thier UI than Ford can license the look and feel of the GT. You can license the icons, you can license the code; you can't simply state this layout belongs to me and anyone who wants this layout needs my license.

For about 10k I can by a 3rd party shell to fit on a car chasis that will make my car look like a Ford GT. I have no love for the Open Office crowd, but I hope to God they release a ribbon just to challenge you guys on this draconian and absurd move.

I'm a big Microsoft fan, but this is nonsense.

Paul

posted by Paul D. Murphy

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

staceyw — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:44:38 GMT

Paul D. Murphy wrote:

What a bunch of BS. Microsoft can no more license the look and feel of thier UI than Ford can license the look and feel of the GT. You can license the icons, you can license the code; you can't simply state this layout belongs to me and anyone who wants this layout needs my license.

For about 10k I can by a 3rd party shell to fit on a car chasis that will make my car look like a Ford GT. I have no love for the Open Office crowd, but I hope to God they release a ribbon just to challenge you guys on this draconian and absurd move.

I'm a big Microsoft fan, but this is nonsense.

Paul

IIRC, yes you can. Apple does it, MS does it, you can do it.

posted by staceyw

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

staceyw — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:46:52 GMT

Wells wrote:

Good interview. Nice camera work Rory.

And it would seem that OpenOffice can't use the ribbon interface. I have nothing against OO but it makes me feel good that they can't just rip off the interface like with previous versions.

It sounded like all they would need to do is sign the license and implement it per the specs. Not sure how it plays with their existing license.

posted by staceyw

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

Paul D. Murphy — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:06:51 GMT

staceyw wrote:

Paul D. Murphy wrote:
What a bunch of BS. Microsoft can no more license the look and feel of thier UI than Ford can license the look and feel of the GT. You can license the icons, you can license the code; you can't simply state this layout belongs to me and anyone who wants this layout needs my license.

For about 10k I can by a 3rd party shell to fit on a car chasis that will make my car look like a Ford GT. I have no love for the Open Office crowd, but I hope to God they release a ribbon just to challenge you guys on this draconian and absurd move.

I'm a big Microsoft fan, but this is nonsense.

Paul

IIRC, yes you can. Apple does it, MS does it, you can do it.

You are just flat wrong dude. You can license code. You can license copy. You can license icons. You can license all kinds of things that are tangible. You can't simply say 'blue tabs belong to me' so sign my license if you want blue tabs.

The whole program is designed to license the document describing the design guildelines. This is fine. Microsoft can license thier guidelines all day long. That doesn't preclude me from making a ribbon like control that looks, feels and operates exactly like the ribbon found in office. By agreeing to the guildelines, I would put myself on the legal bubble with Microsoft. I am free to not license the guidelines and build ribbons till I'm blue in the face so long as my code doesn't violate any patent or copyright held by Microsoft.

It sounds like Microsoft is trying to say "we own anything that looks or feels like a Ribbon" which they can't do. If you want to make a ribbon go ahead. If you want to make a ribbon and put it onto a word processor that you wrote go ahead. Unless you infringing on Microsoft patents or thier copyright you are free to do that.

Just like these guys do with the Ford GT.
http://www.erareplicas.com/gt/gt.htm

Microsoft is framing the licensing of some guildelines as if that carries the same weight as licensing the actual IP (the code, copy and art used in a ribbon). It doesn't.

posted by Paul D. Murphy

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

littleguru — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 22:18:51 GMT

When is this coming? ~~How much is it costing?~~ It's free! Sounds very cool to give us this stuff. Should be included in Visual Studio! Really. Everybody should have the right to use the controls. There is so much thirth party recreating all the controls from Microsoft, but they always feel different. Would be great, if we could get more such controls, also from Vista!

For example the search box that is used in Vista! That would be great stuff.

posted by littleguru

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

cain — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:50:48 GMT

Paul D. Murphy wrote:

staceyw wrote:

Paul D. Murphy wrote:
What a bunch of BS. Microsoft can no more license the look and feel of thier UI than Ford can license the look and feel of the GT. You can license the icons, you can license the code; you can't simply state this layout belongs to me and anyone who wants this layout needs my license.

For about 10k I can by a 3rd party shell to fit on a car chasis that will make my car look like a Ford GT. I have no love for the Open Office crowd, but I hope to God they release a ribbon just to challenge you guys on this draconian and absurd move.

I'm a big Microsoft fan, but this is nonsense.

Paul

IIRC, yes you can. Apple does it, MS does it, you can do it.

You are just flat wrong dude. You can license code. You can license copy. You can license icons. You can license all kinds of things that are tangible. You can't simply say 'blue tabs belong to me' so sign my license if you want blue tabs.

How is this any worse than Apple patenting the "genie effect"?

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=680

posted by cain

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

nksingh — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 05:58:35 GMT

Notice that pyramid of black cubes in the video on Jensen's desk?

I'm willing to bet that those represent patents on the ribbon interface. I wouldn't be surprised if all but one or two are for various aspects of the ribbon. The ribbon is definitely a patentable idea, so it makes sense that MSFT owns IP on this.

posted by nksingh

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

staceyw — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 07:13:59 GMT

Paul D. Murphy wrote:

You are just flat wrong dude. You can license code. You can license copy. You can license icons. You can license all kinds of things that are tangible. You can't simply say 'blue tabs belong to me' so sign my license if you want blue tabs.

The whole program is designed to license the document describing the design guildelines. This is fine. Microsoft can license thier guidelines all day long. That doesn't preclude me from making a ribbon like control that looks, feels and operates exactly like the ribbon found in office. By agreeing to the guildelines, I would put myself on the legal bubble with Microsoft. I am free to not license the guidelines and build ribbons till I'm blue in the face so long as my code doesn't violate any patent or copyright held by Microsoft.

It sounds like Microsoft is trying to say "we own anything that looks or feels like a Ribbon" which they can't do. If you want to make a ribbon go ahead. If you want to make a ribbon and put it onto a word processor that you wrote go ahead. Unless you infringing on Microsoft patents or thier copyright you are free to do that.

Just like these guys do with the Ford GT.
http://www.erareplicas.com/gt/gt.htm

Microsoft is framing the licensing of some guildelines as if that carries the same weight as licensing the actual IP (the code, copy and art used in a ribbon). It doesn't.

I am no lawyer, but a simple search turns up many things that seem to counter what you are saying. Speaking of "Tabs", Adobe already has that one. By my read, if you make a ribbon bar "virtually identical" to MS's, that could be a patent violation (if they have one). And, imo, it is different enouph from anything before, that they would win (and the fact they have a million layers). But the point seems mute, because they are giving everyone an out to avoid all the madness.

- Adobe Tab patent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tab_%28GUI%29
- Patents on GUIs: http://www.cptech.org/ip/business/software/gui.html
- http://lpf.ai.mit.edu/Patents/abstracts/Abstracts.html
- http://www.macobserver.com/columns/devilsadvocate/2004/20030513.shtml
- Apple patent on Spring-Folders
- TrueType font hinting.
- See "The Virtual Identity Standard" here: http://law.richmond.edu/jolt/v1i1/myers.html
- Apple Stacks (i.e. piles) http://homepage.mac.com/rdas7/stacks.html

posted by staceyw

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

mwirth — Fri, 24 Nov 2006 18:11:23 GMT

well.. to make myself a bit more unwanted around these here parts i have to admit that to me this is all about preventing some of the competing office suites like openoffice to mimic the look and feel of ms office.. which is what they used to do if we're honest for a second.
good? bad? i tend to think the latter is true.

a short an inacurate post.. but these are my first sentiments towards this issue.. it just looks weird to customers.

posted by mwirth

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

andywilkinson — Fri, 24 Nov 2006 20:47:48 GMT

What? No link to Jensen's blog!

Jensen Harris (the GPM in this video) has what I consider one of the best blogs out there. He covers the full life of the Ribbon, with excellent explanations of the features, and why they came about. Check it out here,

http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/default.aspx

For new readers of his blog, he recently posted an "index" of his posts,

http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/2006/11/10/the-office-2007-ui-bible.aspx

posted by andywilkinson

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

yolio — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:16:30 GMT

Hi All, this is the first time ive posted on 9

regarding the UI, would you think I would have to licence our Web App, its based on the Office UI, not eact but close

here are some shots.

http://www.y2media.co.uk/images/files/brandvu1.jpg

http://www.y2media.co.uk/images/files/brandvu2.jpg

any thoughts on licencing would be gratefully received.

Thanks

posted by yolio

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

dannomite — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:02:48 GMT

staceyw wrote:

I am no lawyer, but a simple search turns up many things that seem to counter what you are saying. Speaking of "Tabs", Adobe already has that one. By my read, if you make a ribbon bar "virtually identical" to MS's, that could be a patent violation (if they have one). And, imo, it is different enouph from anything before, that they would win (and the fact they have a million layers). But the point seems mute, because they are giving everyone an out to avoid all the madness.

- Adobe Tab patent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tab_%28GUI%29
- Patents on GUIs: http://www.cptech.org/ip/business/software/gui.html
- http://lpf.ai.mit.edu/Patents/abstracts/Abstracts.html
- http://www.macobserver.com/columns/devilsadvocate/2004/20030513.shtml
- Apple patent on Spring-Folders
- TrueType font hinting.
- See "The Virtual Identity Standard" here: http://law.richmond.edu/jolt/v1i1/myers.html
- Apple Stacks (i.e. piles) http://homepage.mac.com/rdas7/stacks.html

Wow, I can't believe that I have to sign a seperate legal agreement with MS even when I use design guideline compliant controls from a third party like Dotnetbar. Free agreement or not, intentional or not, this says loud and clear MS self-interests are more important than it's customers and that we can't be trusted.

What's interesting is that you could get close to the office 2007 ribbon using existing controls available in most all GUI's. The idea that Microsoft somehow now owns tabbed groups of toolbar buttons with the name "ribbon" is silly. I've done tabbed groups of toolbar image/text buttons numerous times in the past in my own applications. This is NOT a new invention. 3D Studio Max has had tabbed toolbars for a long time. There are some additional frill features that Office 2007 ribbon has, like collapsing, scaling, etc, but that once again can be quickly added to controls already in the wild. What you won't get easily though, is the exact look and feel of the office 2007 ribbon, but that will probably not be that important in competing products like OpenOffice. There is no reason why OpenOffice couldn't implement tabbed toolbars with their own look, without being accused of copying the ribbon control, because there was already prior art for tabbed toolbars. I look forward to hearing who it is Microsoft thinks they can prosecute for doing something similiar, but not "exactly" like the "new" ribbon control. [6]

> sounds like Microsoft is trying to say "we own anything that looks or feels like a Ribbon" which they can't do

I agree. The ribbon looks and functions alot like a tabbed toolbar, which was clearly implemented prior. MS did not invent this concept, they, as usual, enhanced prior art and then claimed it as their own. On top of that they turn around and discourage others from doing the same with the ribbon control. In the video they actually talk about not allowing others to "enhance" the Office 2007 controls. Say what? MS can improve upon what others have come up with, but we can't improve upon what MS has came up with? Do as MS says, not as they do? That sound fair? Not to me.

posted by dannomite

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

emission — Tue, 12 Dec 2006 00:56:29 GMT

According to Microsoft, you definitely need a license. But the license is BS, as many have stated.

Also, this could be fun for reference:

http://daringfireball.net/2006/12/microsoft_workgroup_manager_icon

BTW. Nice UI on your CMS!

posted by emission

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

tc — Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:32:37 GMT

Its clear to me that Microsoft spent a lot of time and money developing this UI.  It seems probable that one or more patents or copyrights owned by Microsoft would apply and be valid. I've certainly never seen something like it.

Since the license is free, and the only things you really have to agree with are (roughly speaking):

    1. you aren't directly competing with Office 2007 products and
    2. if you're going to use this UI, do a good job of it.

it seems quite reasonable.

If you want to make money cloning Office 2007, you'll have to take the risk that Microsoft will attempt to enforce its IP rights. If, as some have argued, this is prior art and invalid, you'll have a good argument. On the other hand, if you're just using the Office 2007 to make your application look cool and seem to be part of the Office suite, Microsoft has given you a way to do with without running the risk of violating their IP.

The license is voluntary. Your position without signing it is exactly the same as it would have been if Microsoft never offered the program. The only thing the program does (and I, for one, appreciate it) is make it safe to use that UI without fear that you are violating Microsoft's IP. I suspect there are many companies out there who's legal departments have told them they can't use that UI for fear of lawsuits. This gives those companies a way to do so safely.

posted by tc

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

dannomite — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:05:30 GMT

As I said earliar, tabbed toolbars are not new: http://animation.about.com/od/3danimationtutorials/ss/3dsmax_less1p2_2.htm

I hope that fancier versions of tabbed toolbars with some style changes like gradient colors, collapsing, etc, are not what MS thinks they can go after. If Open Office adds distinct looking tabbed toolbars I certainly hope MS doesn't attempt to claim ownership of this concept.

Bottom line is MS is an intimidating enough force, and MS Office market penetration is deep enough, to get most everyone to sign the Office 2007 UI agreement. It has in large part become a me-too affair.

posted by dannomite

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

modosansreves — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 11:48:15 GMT

Why didn't they patent the menu ?
It would be funny to buy a licence for placing 'File' in there.

posted by modosansreves

Re: Office UI - New Licensing Story

modosansreves — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 11:51:30 GMT

posted by modosansreves