Comment Feed for Channel 9 - Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

BruceLee — Tue, 11 May 2004 05:55:21 GMT

Just glad to hear that T-SQL is not dead yet.

posted by BruceLee

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

Skriker V1.0 — Tue, 11 May 2004 14:10:58 GMT

What would you say to developers who are using MySQL to convince them to move over to MSSQL?

Iain

posted by Skriker V1.0

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

rchildress — Tue, 11 May 2004 16:13:03 GMT

Skriker V1.0 wrote:

What would you say to developers who are using MySQL to convince them to move over to MSSQL?

Iain

Euan : That's easy! We got views and triggers!

posted by rchildress

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

clint_hill — Tue, 11 May 2004 16:20:17 GMT

I'm sure you were wanting a response from Euan, but I enjoy talking about "what technology or product to use". And I think it comes down to this: What makes your job easier. I am sure you could come up with a list of 10 things for both MSSQL and MySQL that would want you to move to other side. But this really isn't the point. The point is you have work to do and if one tool helps you do that job better, than by all means that is the one you use.

I should qualify my statement here by saying I use MSSQL and wouldn't care to use MySQL. But to give you an example of what I mean I have often used Access Data access pages to give people an interface to the data. I am an ASP/ASP.NET developer and I am opening up Access to build interfaces?? Yah, because sometimes it's just easier. Be pragmatic in your work. Work smarter and things will get easier. It means that the client/end user will get their job done easier as well.

I would like to hear however a response from MS on some of the technology advantages of MySQL - honestly I don't know.

posted by clint_hill

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

Stepaniuk — Wed, 12 May 2004 03:10:34 GMT

rchildress wrote:

Skriker V1.0 wrote:
What would you say to developers who are using MySQL to convince them to move over to MSSQL?

Iain

Euan : That's easy! We got views and triggers!

Lord don't get me started on this debate. We have MySQL right now and i'm glad to say that we are finally converting to MS SQL Server. I have not used MS SQL Server but i am finding it is less of a learning curve than MySQL.

The other thing that MS SQL has are Stored Procedures, Backup and Restore Modules, Replication Services, and above all CONSTRAINTS!!! In MySQL by default (maybe it's just the version im suing) there are not foreign key constrains. You can type them with your CREATE TABLE syntax, but the server won't enfoce them!

Lastly, MS SQL has Enterprise Manager. Sure there are many GUI's written for MySQL, but the most popular one requires installing PHP on the server, not cool.

posted by Stepaniuk

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

Stepaniuk — Wed, 12 May 2004 03:12:58 GMT

clint_hill wrote:

I would like to hear however a response from MS on some of the technology advantages of MySQL - honestly I don't know.

One of the big advantages MySQL had for a long time was cost. MySQL is free, except if you sell your product with it, then there are licensing fees.

MySQL is a good database, don't get me wrong, it has strength over MS SQL, but most of those are lifestyle arguements.

Chris Stepaniuk

posted by Stepaniuk

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

Stepaniuk — Wed, 12 May 2004 03:13:52 GMT

Euan,

Thanks for the discussion, i agree that taking those types of risks more often than not steel your sleep, but in the end pay off.

Speaking of myths...

I once heard that C# was going to be a replacement for C++, i laughed. When i was asked why, i asked this person if they knew that office was written entirely in C++, and large chunks of Visual Studio are written in Managed C++, C#, and VB.NET just to prove they could do it.

C++ isn't going anywhere, it will be around for many years, and you will continue to develop managed and unmanaged apps on the Windows platforms.

posted by Stepaniuk

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

EuanG — Wed, 12 May 2004 03:18:36 GMT

Another great question!

The first thing I would say is checkout our MSDE SKU which is free. Many people don't realise there is a free version of "SQL Server". It has very rich functionality, its 100% compatible with SQL Server Std and Enterprise Edition(you can just detach the database file and attach it to one of the higher end SKUs).

Next I would say look at the maturity of the Management/Development Tools and Perf Tuning tools. Tools like Profiler, Replay, Database Tuning Advisor and Graphical Showplan can really help developers build and tune there apps.

Then I would suggest going and looking into the fantastic help and advice thats available in our community via places such as http://msdn.microsoft.com/data or our newsgroups on msnews.microsoft.com or maybe some of our community sites like http://www.sqljunkies.com, http://www.sqlservercentral.com, http://www.sqlteam.com, http://sqlserverfaq.com, http://www.sswug.com/

Finally I would take a look at SQL2000 and SQL2005 and look at the range of features, the reliability, the scaleability and the performance, there is tons of information to look at, this is a great starting place: http://www.microsoft.com/sql/

-Euan

posted by EuanG

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

EuanG — Wed, 12 May 2004 03:21:55 GMT

This is a great misperception about SQL Server and several of the competitors out there. MSDE is free, its free to use and free to distribute as part of your app, we changed to make it this easy a few months ago. There are not many vendors out there that are really this free.

-Euan

posted by EuanG

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

EuanG — Wed, 12 May 2004 03:32:25 GMT

I think Longhorn will drive a lot of people to build managed apps faster than they they expected, just as Yukon will do.

Dealing with User Defined DataTypes written in managed languages via OLE DB, ODBC and ADO is pretty challenging, dealing with them in Managed code is a snap. Lots of the newer APIs that MS is producing are in the same bucket, VERY easy to use from managed, some harder and more challenging in native code.

In the tools team we replaced millions of lines of C++ code in this release with C#. We also wrote some new C++ and some Managed C++ code, this is mostly in SQL Computer Manager and Profiler. The former is pure C++ the later is a mix.

In reality some of the reasons we did not write everything in managed was a resourcing issue and for other external reasons which I don't believe are valid.

On the other hand I think we wrote MC++ in some places and it is still the choice.

Many people use office as a gauge to see whether Microsoft is serious about Managed code, there should be no doubt we are very very serious about managed code but we are also a business. It was the right time to rewrite the tools for Yukon for a variety of reasons, the timing was right that managed code was an option. The office team has not done a rewrite in many years of the main product, when they do I am sure managed will be one of their options and likely the choice. They did rewrite Windows Sharepoint Services 2.0 in managed code as the timing was perfect.

Remember also that in the SQL Server team we wrote all of reporting services, the server and the designer, in managed code.

We are producing a lot of managed code apps as a company today and this will only increase, but more importantly many of you, our customers are producing managed code apps.

-Euan

posted by EuanG

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

JParrish — Fri, 14 May 2004 04:27:18 GMT

I have to say I am happy to see someone from MS come out and speak the gospel. It is VERY important that we see MS produce tools that are written in managed code, and that when others attemp the same it is possible to achieve the same level of quality given the same level of effort. That my friend is a free market and I hope it works well for MS, because MS and any innovative company that produces platforms for developers, helps to drive technology forward.

In addition to the competitive nature of it, MS implementing purely managed code tools will prove the legitimacy of many a developer. ANSI C has enjoyed it's status for a long time because multiple platforms have supported it, in an open standard. I see C# and the CLR capable of taking that same spotlight.

*crowd roars* =)

posted by JParrish

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

Stepaniuk — Fri, 14 May 2004 07:01:35 GMT

Euan,

That is awesome to hear. I know that i am not alone in the feeling that Microsoft isn't fully taking the plunge into managed code.

I am very excited to hear the integration with the CLR with SQL Server.

As for the Office argument, i agree, Microsoft is a business, and why break what works? Office is a huge app and would take a year or more to rewrite totally in managed code.

Again, thanks for all your insights into SQL Server and expecially the develop roles with SQL Server.

Chris Stepaniuk

posted by Stepaniuk

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

sbc — Fri, 14 May 2004 22:22:41 GMT

Will there be a Yukon version of MSDE?

posted by sbc

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

EuanG — Fri, 14 May 2004 23:06:13 GMT

Yes there will be a Yukon version of MSDE, we have done a ton of work on it, we will be announcing it when we release B2 and it will be part of B2.

posted by EuanG

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

sbc — Fri, 14 May 2004 23:29:43 GMT

Embedded Yukon sounds good. What OS's will Yukon work on (I assume at least 2000 and XP), and will the next Office have it (like Office 2003 has)?

posted by sbc

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

EuanG — Sat, 15 May 2004 00:54:34 GMT

Currently Yukon is going to target Win2000+ (WinXP, WinSvr2003, etc)

To be honest I am not sure of Office's plans for the next release but they have always been keen on MSDE so I can only presume they still will be

-Euan

posted by EuanG

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

sbc — Sun, 16 May 2004 17:53:13 GMT

Perhaps there should be better integration between Access and MSDE - choice between legacy Access Database, or create new MSDE database. Access may prove to be a good interface for MSDE - or maybe use MSDE as it's native format.

Does the SQL Team work much with the Access team?

posted by sbc

Re: Euan Garden - What are the myths about SQL Server (Yukon) that you'd like to correct?

EuanG — Mon, 17 May 2004 07:22:11 GMT

Yes we work pretty closely with the Access team, they are working on their next version and we have spent a ton of time talking about MSDE features with them. Look out for B2 of Yukon and the MSDE feature list and you will see the fruits of some of our work with Office and VS.

posted by EuanG