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Jason Anderson - Late night with the Burton team (Visual Studio Team System), Part I

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This is a different kind of video for Channel 9.

Two weeks ago Robert Scoble, one of the five guys who works on Channel 9, held a geek dinner. He holds those regularly at a food court near Microsoft -- this one was held in honor of security expert Dana Epp, who was in Seattle to attend a conference. At the geek dinner, a discussion -- er, it was really almost a fight -- started between two members of the Visual Studio 2005 Team System, Tom Arnold and Jason Anderson, and several other attendees at the dinner.

Tom and Jason smoothed things over and invited the entire crowd back over to campus to get a demo of the Visual Studio Team System. They ended up staying until almost midnight.

We've split the video up into four pieces. The whole thing is two-hours long. Here's the first piece. Let us know if you enjoy this. If so, we'll do more longer presentations like this.

Oh, several bloggers wrote about the event. Here's some of their blog reports on the dinner and the meeting (you'll see these guys in the video too -- they hadn't seen VSTS before, and their questions are answered):

Randy Holloway
Steve Maine
Dana Epp
Don Alvarez (we couldn't find a blog from him)
Todd Bishop (he writes Seattle PI's Microsoft Blog)

Starting around the table on the left is Randy Holloway, Dana Epp, Todd Bishop, Steve Maine, and Don Alvarez.

Also at the dinner was Anita Rowland (among others). Here's her writeup. If you're ever in the Seattle area, let us know and we'll throw you a dinner. Maybe you'll even get to see something cool demoed like this.

Update: Part II is here.

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  • yeah, sure - 10.000 tests.

    if visual studio was usable with 10.000 files in 25 projects that would be great.

    which it is not.

    do i really want to add 10.000 test cases to that?

    quite frankly, i don't.

    i'm happy if it doesn't crash on my team with funny '?' exceptions every day...

    maybe the 'team system' really is a great thing - but until the studio isn't much more stable than it is today, i'm certainly not going to move any more jobs/projects to it. and certainly not 10 thousands of it.

    WM_MY0.02$
    thomas woelfer
  • The more in-depth the videos are, the more exciting the viewing experience is.  I definitely enjoyed it so keep 'em coming!

  • Mike SampsonSampy And I come back to you now - at the turn of the tide
    Stress testing with large amounts of projects and files is something very much in the minds of us for Whidbey. We have extensive performance testing and ambitious goals.

    Trust me, VS perf with large amounts of data is something we hear a lot about from customers and we're listening!
  • rhmrhm
    That's good to hear. I'm really keen on the msbuild functionality. It seems a lot of "real developers" if they use devstudio at all use make to build instead of using the project manager function. Thing is, I really hate make, half-baked unix relic that it is, and from what I've read msbuild is just the thing to finally put it out of its misery.

    Anyway, on the subject of the team system stuff, I was thinking for a lot of that video "hey, this is just like Nunit/CSUnit/etc. but integrated" and then just as the guy was expanding on the more interesting tests it ended!

    btw. Isn't this going to tread quite badly on the toes of quite a few 3rd part tools vendors? It sounds like a clone for TestComplete to pick one example.
  • SimoSimo With me it's a full-time job.

    On multiple levels, this is great stuff.

    1. You'd like to know if I enjoyed this... yes!! This is really what C9 is about.

    2. I love the Visual Team system stuff, also big fan of MSBuild. To be fair I haven't tried it out yet. But as a corporate developer it's addressing all the issues I work with every day. I have a lot of time for the Team System guys, whoever sold the idea to the VS product manager deserves a great bonus... if you pull it off.

  • I like the longer format.
  • BorlandBoyBorlandBoy BorlandBoy
    The longer videos are good, but would be helpful if we had a download link, rather than just a stream. Doesn't matter so much for the shorter ones.

    Cheers
    Malcolm
  • The Channel 9 TeamThe Channel 9 Team 5 guys from Redmond
    I'm catching up on getting downloadable videos up too.

    I'll get the four of these up next week.
  • Downloadable videos would be great for those of us in countries like South Africa Smiley I'm curious though, why do you guys make it sound as if it's such a task to create downloadable videos? Surely this task can be automated, it doesn't need to be a manual process, afterall, most of us with bandwidth issues are using tools like NetTransport and SDP to download the streams to disk.
  • DrongoDrongo What next?
    From the point of view of being kept informed and interested about future MS work, videos like this are akin to gold dust - more please.
  • Wayne TaylorKryptos Backup People!
    This is cool stuff, I for one what to see the rest!

    Cheers
  • The Channel 9 TeamThe Channel 9 Team 5 guys from Redmond
    Unfortunately it is a manual process. Lots of forms to fill out to upload one video. I'm getting faster at it, though. Will have a list of downloadable videos up shortly. Probably by end of the day today.

    --Robert Scoble
  •    This seems to be a step in the right direction.  I'm really happy that you added this level of testing inside VS.  The long video format is perfect for those programming gurus wannabes like me...Tongue Out

       Keep em comming!!!  I do preffer, if you could, to have a place where we can download these videos.  I still can't get broadband in my area...(suffering from low bandwidth symdrome please help!!!)...although efforts are being made by the cable and telephone companies, I still have to wait a couple of months to have broadband available...(no sattelite service near my home either...:-@)...Soooo...I would appreciate if there can be a way of downloading the videos...Smiley

    Keep posting!


    "The code you do today will hunt your future" --Tony
  • The Channel 9 TeamThe Channel 9 Team 5 guys from Redmond
    I'll get a complete list of video downloads for you soon. Here's a search that'll bring up some of them.

    I'll solve the video download issue and get back to you. That's what I'm working on today.
  • pacelvipacelvi Phear
    Can we see a video of the fight?
  • The Channel 9 TeamThe Channel 9 Team 5 guys from Redmond
    Unfortunately we didn't film that (the food court was too noisy). But, the blogs linked to above give a pretty good idea of what was discussed.
  • LazyCoderLazyCoder quit looking at me!
    Simo wrote:

    2. I love the Visual Team system stuff, also big fan of MSBuild. To be fair I haven't tried it out yet. But as a corporate developer it's addressing all the issues I work with every day.



    If you like MS-Build, why wait for MS to get around to releasing it? Why not use NAnt right now?
  • scobleizerscobleizer I'm the video guy

    You're welcome to come to the next PR event. Smiley

    Another one will be scheduled next week.

    But, the reason I didn't link to your blog is cause I didn't know about it.

  • LazyCoderLazyCoder quit looking at me!
    scobleizer wrote:

    You're welcome to come to the next PR event. Smiley

    Another one will be scheduled next week.

    I was thinking of getting in touch w/ Paul Murphy and seeing about setting up a "downtown Seattle" geek dinner while Adam Field is staying at the Westin.

    scobleizer wrote:

    But, the reason I didn't link to your blog is cause I didn't know about it.



    Yeah, trackbacks suck as a method for linking blogs together mainly because they are unreliable or they depend on someone being able to see the link in their referral log. I tracked back every post you linked to above and my trackback only showed up in 1/2 of them. My trackback to your blog was probably lost in the glut of trackback from A-list bloggers. errrr.... I mean it's obviously the intent of the MS PR machine to inhibit any dissenting voices by not linking to them. Wink (whew, almost lost my paranoia there for a second)
  • LazyCoderLazyCoder quit looking at me!
    The Channel 9 Team wrote:
    Unfortunately we didn't film that (the food court was too noisy). But, the blogs linked to above give a pretty good idea of what was discussed.


    Not really, Those blogs gloss over the main point of the loud discussion. The fact that MS isn't "eating it's own dogfood" in the case of team services.

    I've got the story on my weblog (which isn't cool enough for all the softies to link to)

    http://www.lazycoder.com/weblog/archives/2004/06/23/visual-studio-whidbey-and-team-services/

    Honestly, this geek dinner turned into a big MS PR thing and it was pretty annoying.
  • SimoSimo With me it's a full-time job.
    LazyCoder wrote:

    If you like MS-Build, why wait for MS to get around to releasing it? Why not use NAnt right now?


    Went with the BuildManager tool from the MS Patterns and Practises site. Does NAnt help with assembly dependencies? When I skimmed through the documentation I didn't see any mention. Would be interested to hear what it does.
  • LazyCoderLazyCoder quit looking at me!
    Simo wrote:
    LazyCoder wrote:
    If you like MS-Build, why wait for MS to get around to releasing it? Why not use NAnt right now?


    Went with the BuildManager tool from the MS Patterns and Practises site. Does NAnt help with assembly dependencies? When I skimmed through the documentation I didn't see any mention. Would be interested to hear what it does.


    Can someone post a link to the BuildManager tool at the MS Patterns and Practices site. I can't find it anywhere on that site and the search, predictably, doesn't help.

    Do you mean this? BuildManager Object


  • SimoSimo With me it's a full-time job.
    LazyCoder wrote:

    Can someone post a link to the BuildManager tool at the MS Patterns and Practices site. I can't find it anywhere on that site and the search, predictably, doesn't help.


    Sorry got the name of it wrong, which wouldn't have helped you.

    Direct link to the Build Tool is here.
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnbda/html/tdlg_app.asp

    BuildTool was written a year ago to address the lack of a buld tool within VS.net 2002/2003.

    It was provided as part of this P&P white paper:
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnbda/html/Tdlg_rm.asp?frame=true
    on Team developement with VS.net.

    The main home page for MS Patterns & Practises is here: http://www.microsoft.com/resources/practices/default.mspx

    Used to be a major fan of the P&P site but have been disappointed with the Data Application Block. Version 2.0 was released with a couple of screaming bugs. Then some of the original team that put the thing together put a great effort into producing a 3.0 that is hidden away under the gotdotnet site and doesn't appear to come with the same stamp of approval as 2.0 despite it looking a lot better.
  • Hi,

     Just wanted to note a couple of points...

    1) I totally respect your comments about VS, we're improving many aspects of VS and performance and robustness are certainly part of that.

    2) Tests can be as small as methods, so, the comment about 10,000 is from the standpoint that we’ve tried to make the environment very usable even for large numbers of tests.

     

    3) You can load tests without projects and solutions. If you are just wanting to ‘manage and execute’ tests, projects and solution are optional.

     

     Hope this helps clarify the comment…

     

     Jason

  • Can someone help me with information (link?) to more info on Team System Change Control? My company is getting ready to buy a change control system, and I'd love us to buy VSTS.

    Also, (don't shoot me) will MS Access projects integrate with VSTS in the future?

    Thanks,

    Geoff

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