Charlie Owen - Your first Media Center/Vista application (and a look at their secret room)
- Posted: Apr 07, 2006 at 7:17 PM
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Over in building 50 there's a secret room. It's never been shown in public before. What is this room for? Testing audio devices. It is a special room where it's completely silent and the walls have been treated to minimize sound wave reflections. After
giving us a tour Charlie Owen, PM on the
Media Center
team, gives us a little taste of Windows Vista's Media Center features and shows us how to build your first Media Center application. Great discussion of Xbox 360 and the latest in Media Center functionality. The Vista demo starts at about 19:00 into the
video. The Web site we talk about is the
Media Center Sandbox, which is where you can learn more.
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First of all, I am just 10 minutes in so I don't know if what I am about to say will be covered later in the video, but...
The way I understand it from reading various tidbits about MCML, it sounds like it existed before to describe the Media Center UI and was only opened up reluctantly because people weren't happy with the HTML model for UI development ( I being one of them. ) While I am thrilled that MCML is now opened up I can't help think that it will always be second class to XAML/WPF. Moving forward will we be seeing the technologies converge to the point where XAML/WPF becomes the standard for the UI?
Since WPF is getting all the tools (ie, Expression Interactive Designer), wouldn't it make sense to go to purely a WPF UI?
Cheers,
Clint
P.Swetha Rani .
Nope.
We leveraged the HTML model first because it offered us the quickest way to get our API out there and didn't force folks to learn a whole new development paradigm for a nascent market. In addition, many of our target partners already had HTML based experiences they could easily leverage in a remote controlled world. But yes, you are right, HTML development for Media Center can be painful at times.
And yes, the Windows Media Center Presentation Layer and MCML has existed in some form since the very first version of Media Center. It has proven, over the course of 4 versions of Windows Media Center (and soon to be a fifth in Windows Vista) to be such a powerful way to create applications designed for use with a remote control it was a no brainer decision to make it available to third parties. Far from being a reluctant decision, we are ECSTATIC it's being opened up to folks like you Clint. It's really what our community of developers have been asking for from our team and we are happy to deliver.
Clint --> While I am thrilled that MCML is now opened up I can't help think that it will always be second class to XAML/WPF.
I can see how you might arrive at this conclusion, but it's certainly not the case. We hope people will look at it this way...
The Windows Media Center Presentation Layer Application paradigm is the first class citizen in developing applications and services for Windows Media Center (but it's NOT available for general Windows development). The WinFX paradigm is the first class citizen in developing applications and services for Windows (and you can also use it in developing Windows Media Center experiences). The Windows Media Center SDK for Windows Vista has a topic called 'Choosing a Technology' which will help you decide which one is appropriate for your needs.
Clint --> Moving forward will we be seeing the technologies converge to the point where XAML/WPF becomes the standard for the UI?
Perhaps -- time will tell. The two teams are certainly collaborating now to give us the ability to use WinFX XBAP in Windows Media Center. Based on what I have seen so far internally I don't think you are dead-ended long term with either choice, if that's your concern.
Clint --> Since WPF is getting all the tools (ie, Expression Interactive Designer), wouldn't it make sense to go to purely a WPF UI?
That's the great thing -- as a third party you CAN use WinFX for your Windows Media Center experience -- totally your choice -- just as you can choose the Windows Media Center Presentation Layer or HTML, which is still a valid app dev model within Windows Media Center in Windows Vista.
So happy about having MCML, as the hosted HTML model drove me crazy.
They need to get you a better camera.
The trick now is to get my boss to pay me to play with MCE
You good!I want a wallop invite.Thank you very much!Hope you to contact with me!My mailbox is: tanzhiren0416@hotmail.comHave any of you written apps/tools using this XAML or MCML? It seems really cool in theory but it seems like it would be really limiting....constantly looking for the right way to describe your ui/functionality.
Again, exciting in theory but I am curious to see what kind of apps come out of it.
Well, obviously the Microsoft team developing the platform (and Media Center itself) has done so. You can learn more and actually introduce yourself to some MCML with the following two blog posts from our team:
http://blog.mediacentersandbox.com/PermaLink,guid,f0919949-91e9-4f4c-977f-bd944950ae4f.aspx
http://blog.mediacentersandbox.com/PermaLink,guid,cb622812-d80f-45d2-82d6-a54099e62e21.aspx
The samples available from those posts will work with the Beta2 build coming soon. If you have any questions about the samples, feel free to post comments on the blog posts themselves.
We are also shipping at least one end-to-end sample with the SDK as well -- a Windows Media Center Podcast Client -- learn more at http://blog.retrosight.com/PermaLink,guid,17f1725d-b1f5-4631-90c5-6afc49dc5ca7.aspx.
Great to see Charlie on Channel 9 again, and thanks for the shout out!
Also, I think there should be some more videos of MCE - vista functionality out there. I have hardly seen MCE in action running on vista. I'd like to see some footage of the TV and video features. I hope you're listening scoble!
The idea of this in the living room is very exciting. the UI design for workflow seems pretty excellent.
The big question for me, as a DirecTV subscriber is...how does MCE interface with the DTV streams (HD and SD)?
the HDTivo now records the stream directly so it looks as good as it's going to look. how does the new mce deal with this?
i would be very very happy to rid myself of the damned hdtivo for a mce so hopefully the answer allows me to get all giddy in anticipation
rob
I was so excited about MCML from my first post I forgot to mention the thing i heard Charlie say that still kinda leaves me wanting more from MCE.....
MCE only supports 2 tuners each for NTSC and HD.... This kinda leaves me hanging.... Its not inconceavable(sp?) to consider the notion of a MCE Server (especially now with x360 extender power)... having more than 2 tuners of any type running and recording television from all over.....
I see it as a limitation that could be avoided.... support for at least 4 tuners of any one type (8 in total) would be far more superior... with the hundreds of channels available to anyone now adays its not hard to believe there could be 3+ shows on TV at the same time that i may want to watch..... would also allow for better overlapping recording.....
if say I'm recording a TV movie that starts @ 5 and ends @ 7 (5-7) and i want to also record CSI @6 (6-7) and i like to record the 6'oclock news @ 6
at the moment I can't record all these programs and watch them later unless at least one of them is broadcast in HD over the air..... And i most certainly can't be watching live TV at all in that scenario
now if I had an MCE server in a home with 4 people (mom, dad, 2 kids) its also not hard to consider that as a whole they may all want to record more just 2 shows at once.... Also if you are watching live TV at the time you can only record 1 other program..... with lots of people wanting to be on the centralized media experience that becomes almost impossible....
Plus with the hauppauge PVR 500MCE its not hard to get 4 tuners in 2 PCI slots...
just a thought guys
I don't believe we have made any more specific announcements about DirecTV in Windows Vista beyond what you see in this press release from CES this past January: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/jan06/01-04CES06PR.mspx. I've asked someone on our TV team to let me know if we have more to share. Net, net -- it sounds like we are on a path to give you what you seek, especially given we previously announced native digital cable support will be in Windows Vista via Open Cable Unidirectional Receiver (OCUR). No pun intended, but stay tuned.
Ang3lFir3 -- > ...support for at least 4 tuners of any one type (8 in total) would be far more superior...
Take a walk on over to Peter Rossers blog at http://blogs.msdn.com/peterrosser/archive/2006/04/03/MCE_TechTalk_1.aspx where he explains how to get N tuners working in Windows Media Center. We still only officially support 4 total tuners (2 NTSC, 2 ATSC) but if ya gotta have more, it's doable. Peter actually had 3 ATSC + 6 NTSC for a total of 9 tuners at one time.
smidley --> I agree with the idea about a plugin to watch CH. 9 vids from Online spotlight or something like that.
You can use Newsgator Media Center Edition (find it in Online Spotlight) to subscribe to the Channel9 RSS video feed and watch in Media Center or on the XBox 360 Media Center Extender.
As for performance on extenders, will mcml apps render better than wpf based apps?
Also, good thing you pointed out the apple remote comparison by Steve Jobs. I also touched on it on my Blog
http://www.tunjiafonja.com/tunjis_weblog/2006/03/hey_steve_we_ar.html
tj8212 --> As for performance on extenders, will mcml apps render better than wpf based apps?
Yes.
Ok, I noticed in the video that MCML bears a striking resemblance to XAML. You guys have support for layout panels, common controls, databinding, event triggers and separation of behaviour from control type. I'm sure there are other similarities. So I was puzzled as to why you found it necessary to create yet another UI markup language. But a combination of that last demo of the twirling letters and the post quoted here leads me to suspect that you didn't want to go the WPF route because the performance of WPF at the moment leaves alot to be desired.
Did you need a more lightweight framework?
Will the new mce support a ca-module/pay tv in europe? Now we need a set top box to watch pay tv
this article :
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/jan06/01-04CES06PR.mspx
describes :
"Microsoft announced a broad agreement with DIRECTV Inc. that will open up new ways for consumers to enjoy their digital media in the networked home and on portable devices. Microsoft and DIRECTV will work together to enable digital content to flow between Windows-based PCs, DIRECTV devices, PlaysForSure™-based portable media devices and Xbox 360."
Directv devices...hmm. Well, please let everyone know that's involved that I want a microsoft device running my living room television experience, not a directv one. The HDTivo is pretty crappy. It's the slowest piece of hardware I have ever seen and it's not maintained in any way.
directv can give me the signal as long as Microsoft gives me the way to get to that signal
thanks for the reply!
We shipped the very first version of Windows Media Center back in 2002. Windows Presentation Foundation ('Avalon') was demonstrated at PDC 2003 and, as of today, is still in beta.
I.e., we have been shipping software using the Windows Media Center Presentation Layer for over 4 years now. I believe we would have used WinFX for Windows Media Center had it been a shipping platform way back when.
Senkwe Chanda --> But a combination of that last demo of the twirling letters and the post quoted here leads me to suspect that you didn't want to go the WPF route because the performance of WPF at the moment leaves alot to be desired.
Nope. We didn't expose the Windows Media Center Presentation Layer because WPF isn't performant enough. Note we have also given you the ability to use WPF for your Windows Media Center experiences, if you so choose. I've seen WPF do some pretty amazing things (the North Face demo totally rocks -- see http://channel9.msdn.com/showpost.aspx?postid=116327).
Also, this statement would assume we had an option to ship Windows Media Center built on WinFX originally (which we didn't). The two UI description paradigms happened largely in parallel, each with different mandates. See my reply to Clint above (^^).
Maybe something like this
MCML Pros
-Full Power, claims you can build an app as powerful if not better the mce itself
“Add Ins allowing for the creation of full fidelity experiences on par with or exceeding Media Center itself using the new Windows Media Center Presentation Layer.”
-Used by the mce team to build mce
MCML Cons
-App will not work outside of mce
-no visual tool
FAQs
Is MCML ready for primetime?
Well if the mce team has built mce with mcml, I guess its ready???
So MCML is the only way to fully leverage the Microsoft .NET Framework, access the full Media Center application programming interface (API) and run on-demand or as a background process?
The interview was really interesting, good work!
There's just one minor thing that I don't get; everything humanly possible has been done to make the room quiet with the noisy hardware and such seperated in a different room, etc.
And still there's an Xbox and an Xbox 360 in there, and an unsilenced projector hanging in the ceiling? Sort of seems like that would defeat the purpouse.
Anyway, I envy you. Wish I had access to facilities like that. Would be perfect for marathons of quality TV series.
I really enjoy this technology, and what it brings together and have demo'd media center units in the past. I really like what Vista is also going to add with the UI menus too. Very informative and neat to see what is to come!
With regards to the Extender functionality, will Vista include an Extender "client" itself? I heard there was talk of this going under the codename of "Softsled."
Please, please, please tell me Vista will have an Extender app built-in.
Also, is there any possibility in the future that the maximum number of extenders will be increased?
1) Why does everything 'new!' and 'exciting!' look like Mac OS ? I initially thought the screenshot was a comparison of Mac's iDVD, but then noticed things didn't fit properly.
2) While I'm at it, why is 'securty!' such a buzzword at Microsoft now ? I mean, other folks have been doing it right for a long time. Security is not sexy, and definetly not going to sell PC's.
I hope that since I'm not directly bashing vista in it's current beta form, folks can realize this isn't a troll, but just two questions that keep bugging me. I really hope Microsoft isn't betting on folks upgrading because of 'me too!' features. Notice whats happening with General Motors right now, after doing just such a thing for years.
Cheers.
For what it's worth, Media Center has been around for several years now, and Apple's Front Row--with a fraction of the capability--was released at the end of last year.
Some--but very few--folks have been doing it "right." Microsoft has taken (and is taking) its knocks for security and has gotten by far the most attention, but if you've followed the news lately, other rocks are being overturned, and the security focus is spreading to companies that were previously given a pass (Oracle, Apple, etc.). It's not a "buzzword" for Microsoft only--it's one for the whole industry. Keep in mind that these days in the malicious hacking world, it's all about $$$, and because of its vast market share, Windows is going to get the most lovin'.
If there weren't so many ISVs and other baggage to drag along kicking and screaming, they'd have made "restricted" user accounts the norm a long time ago, and these conversations would hardly exist (they'd be entirely different security conversations).
tj8212 --> Can we get some kind of objective comparisn between mcml and wpf for mce apps on the sandbox site.
We do have this already in the beta Windows Media Center SDK -- it's a chart with a side-by-side comparison of the three development choices -- if you have the SDK, look for the 'Choosing a Technology' topic. We are trying to limit the information we post to the Media Center sandbox to stuff we are reasonably sure won't change between now and RTM (since it lives 'forever' on the web) -- and this chart and accompanying commentary probably have a few more edit passes before we can call it ready for prime time.
Cryo --> [With regards to the silent room we filmed the video in ]...there's an Xbox and an Xbox 360 in there, and an unsilenced projector hanging in the ceiling? Sort of seems like that would defeat the purpose.
For audio only tests, there is no reason the projector can't be turned off or the XBoxes moved into the siloed machine room. For video tests you aren't worried about the sound fidelity (and you can see AV sync problems with the lowest of the lowest audio fidelity). That said, the XBox is *probably* in there, well, because the room makes for an WICKED gaming venue. I mean, what fun would a room like that be if it were always business and no play at least some of the time.
bluvg --> With regards to the Extender functionality, will Vista include an Extender "client" itself? I heard there was talk of this going under the codename of "Softsled." Please, please, please tell me Vista will have an Extender app built-in.
There have been some things misquoted the past couple of days with regards to 'SoftSled', so don't believe everything you read on the web. This approach is just one of the possible directions you might see things take in the future -- there are no specific announcements at this time. Having said that, I will say this: Windows Vista Home Premium and Windows Vista Ultimate will ship with OEM systems and in the retail (standalone) channel -- you don't need something like SoftSled if you have Windows Media Center 'built-in' already.
bluvg --> Also, is there any possibility in the future that the maximum number of extenders will be increased?
As a good friend once said: 'Anything is possible -- it's *just* software'. There are many factors that go into this type of decision, not the least of which is consumer demand -- and there are *way* more features folks are demanding from Windows Media Center at the moment over 5+ MCX connections.
[Charlie is answering in the the order the questions / comments were made...] I see and acknowlege your comments, ohgood. I thought bluvg did a pretty good job of answering, so I'll just say 'ditto'.
There have been some things misquoted the past couple of days with regards to 'SoftSled', so don't believe everything you read on the web. This approach is just one of the possible directions you might see things take in the future -- there are no specific announcements at this time. Having said that, I will say this: Windows Vista Home Premium and Windows Vista Ultimate will ship with OEM systems and in the retail (standalone) channel -- you don't need something like SoftSled if you have Windows Media Center 'built-in' already.
I hadn't seen any recent quotes; I think the last time I heard about "SoftSled" was from a Paul Thurrott article quite awhile back. If I may, I would like to suggest that having Media Center built-in is not the same as having an Extender client. It's analogous to how having several PCs with hard disk storage is not the same as having a network with a server.
For example, in my case, I have one PC with all my music loaded into it, as well as having videos and whatnot. I could share those files across the network to my other PCs, but it would be rather high-maintenance compared to the simple remote client approach (which works so well on my Xbox!). Furthermore, it's the only PC with a tuner and access to a cable connection. If I want access to that, an Extender client is the only real approach.
I should say that the Extender is, IMO, one of the coolest things about Media Center. It works slick over my 802.11n wireless network... I'd even say that it works better than having the Media Center PC hooked up directly to the TV! The beauty of the Extender is that it works more like an appliance, whereas the Media Center app creates some conflicts with the PC (unless I just have this misconfigured; I have it set up as a monitor as a primary display and the TV as a secondary). For example, if I'm on the computer browsing the web and my girlfriend is watching TV through the Media Center app, I have to click on the Media Center taskbar button in order for her to be able to change the channel. If I need to start the Media Center app on the computer monitor, I need to turn off the secondary display in the video driver, and then turn it on and move the app back onto it (usually a blind process, since the TV is around the corner) afterwards. Plus, just to use the app, someone has to be logged into the computer. With the Extender, it makes all that happen transparently and behind-the-scenes, and you can use your computer normally. Beautiful!
As a good friend once said: 'Anything is possible -- it's *just* software'. There are many factors that go into this type of decision, not the least of which is consumer demand -- and there are *way* more features folks are demanding from Windows Media Center at the moment over 5+ MCX connections.
I understand. I think I'm not alone, though, in requesting a sort of "Media Center Server." Today, the options (of which I'm aware) are setting up a Windows Media Server and configuring it with certain channels as streams, or installing an expensive A/V system+ coax to each node + tuner cards + software. Where I work, there is a legitimate business value in having something like a "SoftSled"-style client that can connect to a central Media Center PC from anywhere in the office. I don't think we'd ever see a ton of people using it concurrently... maybe 5 is enough, really. But it would also be critical that each client wouldn't go through something like the Xbox Extender setup; ideally, Active Directory authentication would be sufficient.
Am I dreaming too big?
I don't think so. Dedicate a Media Center PC to the task and you effectively have a 'Windows Media Center Server'. If you count the Media Center PC as a node itself (only use it for Windows Media Center) you have 6 sessions of Windows Media Center going at once. Think about it -- with status quo of what is shipping today you can have distributed audio / video throughout these rooms in a single house...
Living Room (Media Center PC)
Bedroom 1 (Media Center Extender)
Bedroom 2 (Media Center Extender)
Bedroom 3 (Media Center Extender)
Den / Bonus Room (Media Center Extender)
Kitchen (Media Center Extender)
Your particular usage of Windows Media Center (single PC, dual monitor, television and monitor in separate rooms connected by long video cables) is not exactly what we had in mind for a single Media Center PC scenario.
Generally speaking, if you have a single PC, the thought is you put away the mouse / keyboard, sit back and relax while enjoying content. If you want to use a Windows application (like browsing the web or email) and Windows Media Center at the same time you would typically run Windows Media Center in a window on the desktop. That's not to say your usage is wrong -- just not the use case for which we designed (but I'm glad it works as well as it does).
And that's where Media Center Extender indeed does become very handy -- it allows you to 'extend' the Windows Media Center experience to other rooms, while leaving the Media Center PC in the typical location of the home.
The initial setup of the Media Center Extender does more than you might think (check out http://channel9.msdn.com/showpost.aspx?postid=126995 where Dave Alles talks about MCX a little bit more in depth -- not sure if he touches on all that happens behind the scenes). For example, we set up the shares necessary to securely share the content out to the various MCX devices, as well as create the individual Windows Media Player libraries for each MCX user. Also, keep in mind the MCX initial setup happens once -- not every time you need to use. And even if we did a 'SoftSled' you would still need to have this setup (more than likely).
Charlie, would it be possible to get my hands on the source code for that last demo with the spinning letters? I don't have a Media Centre PC so I don't want to download the entire SDK. But I'd like to browse that source.
Thanks.
Several quick questions:
1) The first comment on the thread you reference above suggests that you will not be able to watch videos encoded with xvid/divx and the like on an xbox360/MCX device, is this correct?
2) Is there a list of people making Media Center Extenders?
3) Will the current crop of MCX devices be able to fully support Vista's media center? What sort of level will post be Vista RTM devices be expected to function at?
Senkwe Chanda --> Charlie, would it be possible to get my hands on the source code for that last demo with the spinning letters?
Absolutely! We posted the Alphabet Soup sample (and a couple of others) when we introduced Windows Media Center Presentation Layer Web Applications. Read the blog post at http://blog.mediacentersandbox.com/PermaLink,guid,cb622812-d80f-45d2-82d6-a54099e62e21.aspx for a pointer to the Alphabet Soup source (it's readable XML in your browser).
PerfectPhase --> The first comment on the thread you reference above suggests that you will not be able to watch videos encoded with xvid/divx and the like on an xbox360/MCX device, is this correct?
Your statement is correct in that we don't natively support xvid / divx within Windows Media Center or Media Center Extender (for a list of the formats supported on Media Center Extender see http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/MedctrSDK/htm/supportedmediatypesforthemediacenterextender.asp?frame=true).
However, there are a couple of community apps which have cropped up enabling you to watch xvid / divx on Media Center Extender: See http://www.brains-N-brawn.com/mceDivX360 and http://www.runtime360.com/ (the former was written by one of our newest Windows Media Center MVPs, Casey Chestnut).
Gotta love a platform.
PerfectPhase --> Is there a list of people making Media Center Extenders?
There should be over at http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/mediacenter/extender/default.mspx.
PerfectPhase --> Will the current crop of MCX devices be able to fully support Vista's media center? What sort of level will post be Vista RTM devices be expected to function at?
To be honest, I'm not on the MCX team and your previous question was about as deep as I can go personally with MCX technology outside of where it intersects with the platform piece. I'll see if I can get someone from the MCX team to join the conversation and give us some details on these questions.
Hopefully,
James
I'm driving MCE from a 7" touchscreen and the thing that bugs me is the tiny scroll buttons - if i could edit the UI to increase these that would be great
Install the TvTonic plugin for MCE and select Cannel 9 for one of your channels.
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Is there a possible way of downloading this video?
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