Channel 9 Forums - Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 http://mschnlnine.vo.llnwd.net/d1/Dev/App_Themes/C9/images/feedimage.png Channel 9 Forums - Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums Channel 9 keeps you up to date with the latest news and behind the scenes info from Microsoft that developers love to keep up with. From LINQ to SilverLight – Watch videos and hear about all the cool technologies coming and the people behind them. http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums en Tue, 21 May 2013 19:23:44 GMT Tue, 21 May 2013 19:23:44 GMT Rev9 32 -32 -1 Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 Will the browser wars start again? Apple / Mozilla / Opera wish to extend the Netscape plugin architecture and API by extending a cross-platform standard that could allow you to run web based applications off your desktop.

It sounds a bit like ActiveX and Active Desktop, but it could end up better (simply due to being cross-platform and cross-browser). Learning from the issues with ActiveX and IE security, I'm sure it could prove to be successful.

It looks like it is something XAML would do when Longhorn is out, but has an advantage over it - cross-platform, no need to wait for Longhorn; Sun, Macromedia and Adobe are likely to be behind it as well.

I hope they have some success in this, may even encourage XAML (or a subset of XAML) to be backported to Windows 2000 / XP. Looks far better than XHTML as well (adds extra Widgets like menus, toolbars, etc). It would have an advantage over XAML as it is simply extending XHTML (extra markup would be ignored by non-conforming browsers [MSIE])

Essay by J. Hobbs: http://homepage.mac.com/jhobbs/essays/
Web Hypertext Application Technology Working Group: http://www.whatwg.org/
Dave Hyatt's Blog: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/

It is not a W3C initiated project, rather the ones behind it actually make the tools that will implement it (they may submit it to W3C or IETF later). It hopes to mix the best of (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript, XForms etc.

Maybe this may convince users to switch browser - as IE cannot do any of these things at the moment? Maybe we will start seeing those "Best experienced in Firefox/Safari/Opera" images again? By then Firefox may only be 4mb - so no problem downloading and installing (may not even need installing at all - just unzip to a new folder and run).

If Microsoft got behind this (probably never happen unfortunately), it would prove to be very successful and would benefit everyone and improve Microsoft reputation (adding features that tie you to Windows - i.e. ActiveX). In the past, Netscape plugins where supported (IE5 last version to support them?), maybe they could be supported again (imagine a plugin that would work on any browser?)

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/12625#12625 Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:48:08 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/12625#12625 sbc 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/sbc/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 Anyone else notice it is the same war just a new generation of fighters?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/2700a47215af4d199dae9dea0121beff#2700a47215af4d199dae9dea0121beff Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:16:55 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/2700a47215af4d199dae9dea0121beff#2700a47215af4d199dae9dea0121beff Manip 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Manip/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 Speaking of the browser wars, has anyone seen this:

http://software.ericsink.com/Browser_Wars.html

While the Mozilla guys hate Mosiac, their browser originated from it. lol

I wonder if anyone from Microsoft would say how many people are right now on the IE Team. I'm wondering what the current number is.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/9360dd73a86742aca8b99dea0121bf27#9360dd73a86742aca8b99dea0121bf27 Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:05:47 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/9360dd73a86742aca8b99dea0121bf27#9360dd73a86742aca8b99dea0121bf27 Shining Arcanine 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Shining Arcanine/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
sbc wrote:
It sounds a bit like ActiveX and Active Desktop, but it could end up better (simply due to being cross-platform and cross-browser). Learning from the issues with ActiveX and IE security, I'm sure it could prove to be successful.


IMO, there's little sign that they have learned anything from ActiveX/IE. They're only just looking into security zones and marking scripting interfaces 'safe'. Mozilla and Firefox have fully scriptable, automatically installable components through the XPCOM API for creating plug-in components, XPConnect scripting solution for scripting XPCOM components, and the XPInstall component for downloading components on demand. XPCOM components are unmanaged native code with no sandboxing.

The first saving grace for them at the moment is that there aren't that many XPCOM components around. The recent IE exploits were successful because they circumvented the security zones model, due to errors in parsing the URLs. The second is that the browser has its own registration database; an XPCOM component has to be installed into every browser the user wants to use it with.

I'll point out in passing that IE has had the "Safe for Scripting" and "Safe for Initialization" options since IE 3.0 and security zones since version 4.0.

Fundamentally the 'mark object/interface safe' scheme has a massive flaw: it relies on the component developer being honest, scrupulous, and correct. IE has the stop-gap solution of the 'kill bit' - telling IE never to load a component with this GUID. .NET's Code Access Security is a definite step in the right direction; however, I don't expect Microsoft to abandon the ability to load COM components into Internet Explorer.

sbc wrote:
In the past, Netscape plugins where supported (IE5 last version to support them?), maybe they could be supported again (imagine a plugin that would work on any browser?)


Netscape plugins are still supported by IE6: the Adobe Acrobat Reader 5.1 I have installed here (I won't install 6, it's too damned slow, has poor UI, and always crashes if I try the remove-plugins tricks) uses a Netscape-compatible plugin for loading into an IE frame.

Actually the Acrobat plug-in to IE is shockingly poor - try loading different PDFs into two different windows simultaneously, or scrolling one while another is downloading a new chunk. You can't, because Reader seems to use a single thread to download in a single out-of-process server. It also doesn't handle having a separate Reader frame too well.

There's nothing majorly wrong with having an out-of-process server - that's how Word is hosted in IE, using OLE 2.0 interfaces.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/d93a7a6a1b5b45b9a4dc9dea0121bf59#d93a7a6a1b5b45b9a4dc9dea0121bf59 Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:06:24 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/d93a7a6a1b5b45b9a4dc9dea0121bf59#d93a7a6a1b5b45b9a4dc9dea0121bf59 Mike Dimmick 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Mike Dimmick/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 I don't think what they are doing is similar to XAML. At this point I think they are simply trying to implement something similar to ActiveX that will enable plugin developers to script their plugins on other browsers. You can do that in IE, but other browsers have different technologies, some even don't have it.

However, the WHAT group is trying to answer XAML, but so far they don't seem to know how to do it. I can assure you that extending HTML is not the answer. Because from XHTML it is clear that, html is about structuring document, rather than providing a foundation for web apps. You can't buy and sell components on top of HTML today.

XAML seem to be simply an xml format to define user interface. I am not even sure if someone has to learn it, because probably visual studio will take care of everything. For that reason I don't see a real competition so far. People are talking, but I don't know what they are doing. So far from what I read, they seem to focus on HTML and Javascript. I would welcome this effort but it is not a match for XAML and other technologies from Microsoft. XAML is more about delivering really complex apps on the browser. With HTML and javascript all you can do is make the current apps that we already use better. I think they can compete with Flash here, rather than XAML. Certainly XAML is a competitior to all of these technologies, but XAML is a more complete solution. You can actually write your own components in lower level languages, like C# (Javascript is interpreted)

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/8b4e2b68e8b444899d509dea0121bf86#8b4e2b68e8b444899d509dea0121bf86 Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:22:10 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/8b4e2b68e8b444899d509dea0121bf86#8b4e2b68e8b444899d509dea0121bf86 Keskos 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Keskos/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 IMO both Word and Adobe are very poor. I mean it locks IE and crashes it so often; I would like to see both adopt a new method of displaying material, I also actively avoid both formats for web-viewing when possible.

Adobe has gotten worse and worse, it used to actually load fast and be stable as a rock but in recent versions that has all changed. When I want to read a long document I just download it and run it from the desktop, that way at least it is stable even if still slow.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/ace254a424a14ec4ada29dea0121bfc8#ace254a424a14ec4ada29dea0121bfc8 Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:11:04 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/ace254a424a14ec4ada29dea0121bfc8#ace254a424a14ec4ada29dea0121bfc8 Manip 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Manip/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
Mike Dimmick wrote:

Actually the Acrobat plug-in to IE is shockingly poor.


It's craptaculary slow! And that goes for the full version of Acrobat too. Loading photoshop feels snappy in comparison. Strange that.


]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/f512874338aa491da1e99dea0121bff0#f512874338aa491da1e99dea0121bff0 Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:19:28 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/f512874338aa491da1e99dea0121bff0#f512874338aa491da1e99dea0121bff0 lars 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/lars/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
lars wrote:
Mike Dimmick wrote:
Actually the Acrobat plug-in to IE is shockingly poor.


It's craptaculary slow! And that goes for the full version of Acrobat too. Loading photoshop feels snappy in comparison. Strange that.


That is because Adobe decided to fill 6.0 with bloat. I'm still running 5.05 and PDF documents load very quickly for me.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/998b5e8a86124033b02f9dea0121c019#998b5e8a86124033b02f9dea0121c019 Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:32:34 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/998b5e8a86124033b02f9dea0121c019#998b5e8a86124033b02f9dea0121c019 Shining Arcanine 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Shining Arcanine/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
Mike Dimmick wrote:
IMO, there's little sign that they have learned anything from ActiveX/IE.


You haven't read about SP2 have you? It is here at last, including many ActiveX lockdowns.

Read more here:

http://www.chrisbeach.co.uk/core/scripts/entryViewer.php?ID=5540


Expect to be seeing a lot less bad press on IE issues now.. and hopefully a more concerted effort to properly investigate the security of other browsers

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/c20cd01f12334b5789d99dea0121c043#c20cd01f12334b5789d99dea0121c043 Mon, 30 Aug 2004 01:28:52 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/c20cd01f12334b5789d99dea0121c043#c20cd01f12334b5789d99dea0121c043 beachy 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/beachy/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 Dude, why the quintuple posting... Why spamming your blog?

...

Dude....

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/160f51cce85f4db0b59e9dea0121c06b#160f51cce85f4db0b59e9dea0121c06b Mon, 30 Aug 2004 01:46:50 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/160f51cce85f4db0b59e9dea0121c06b#160f51cce85f4db0b59e9dea0121c06b Jeremy W 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
beachy wrote:
:
Expect to be seeing a lot less bad press on IE issues now.. and hopefully a more concerted effort to properly investigate the security of other browsers



i doubt that

90% share = 90% target
* sp2 borders on "UnBreakable!" campaign - it will attract full wrath of hackers to prove themselves against ms year long effort - ie/explorer are still the shell

there will be MORE bad press not less.. count on it

*prediction:
 you may feel a consumer backlash to sp2..that could be coming
 hope im wrong
it was a no win to begin with.. not ms fault

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/20a22ea7cad143bc870a9dea0121c095#20a22ea7cad143bc870a9dea0121c095 Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:11:26 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/20a22ea7cad143bc870a9dea0121c095#20a22ea7cad143bc870a9dea0121c095 me 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/jamie/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 To mitigate the inevitable negative response/bad press/backlash etc., I suggest the following advertising taglines:

SP2: Think of it as a stepping stone to SP3.

SP2: Now with 37% less vulnerabilities!

SP2: It just plain sucks less.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/5a73c45ec3e5403497869dea0121c0bd#5a73c45ec3e5403497869dea0121c0bd Mon, 30 Aug 2004 03:48:31 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/5a73c45ec3e5403497869dea0121c0bd#5a73c45ec3e5403497869dea0121c0bd Karim 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Karim/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 IE is dead in the water.  i like Netscape and firefox and that is only until Apple comes out with Safari for the PC.  I only use IE for two things, Channel 9 and Windows update.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/2992855e41c940b2b31e9dea0121c0e8#2992855e41c940b2b31e9dea0121c0e8 Mon, 30 Aug 2004 04:00:05 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/2992855e41c940b2b31e9dea0121c0e8#2992855e41c940b2b31e9dea0121c0e8 rjdohnert 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/rjdohnert/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 Apparantly someone cares about Linux.  California is looking at deploying Linux and other Open Source solutions.  I am not a Linux cheerleader but heey people are looking for alternatives and these constant daily reports about Microsoft security flaws is not helping.  Sure all the SP2 reported "flaws" have all been half-baked bullshit FUD attacks with no substance decision makers with Little or no tech knowledge do take these into account.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/852956cedf7c47f1ad939dea0121c13c#852956cedf7c47f1ad939dea0121c13c Mon, 30 Aug 2004 05:08:12 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/852956cedf7c47f1ad939dea0121c13c#852956cedf7c47f1ad939dea0121c13c rjdohnert 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/rjdohnert/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 Plus Calif. is suing ms again as well as auctioning off gov pencils and stuff to raise cash for state- go arnie go - sell those pencils

Now Playing:

Terminator VS Assimilator
at a courtroom near you

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/0de413c15cf447a3b3449dea0121c163#0de413c15cf447a3b3449dea0121c163 Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:03:53 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/0de413c15cf447a3b3449dea0121c163#0de413c15cf447a3b3449dea0121c163 me 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/jamie/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
rjdohnert wrote:
Apparantly someone cares about Linux.  California is looking at deploying Linux and other Open Source solutions.  I am not a Linux cheerleader but heey people are looking for alternatives and these constant daily reports about Microsoft security flaws is not helping.  Sure all the SP2 reported "flaws" have all been half-baked bullshit FUD attacks with no substance decision makers with Little or no tech knowledge do take these into account.


I've got a fetish.

It's called subscribing to Secunia's feed of vulnerabilities in software.

For instance, did you know that OS X has more vulnerabilities listed since it's release than Windows Server 2003? Crazy, eh? Who'd of thought.

And today's alerts include vulnerabilities in Java and Debian. None for Microsoft today. Heck, none for Microsoft in nearly 2 weeks.

That isn't to say they don't have a lot of, and MANY outstanding, vulnerabilities...

But, yeah, it's a fetish Big Smile

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/5db23dcd5f9b46679b5a9dea0121c19b#5db23dcd5f9b46679b5a9dea0121c19b Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:07:09 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/5db23dcd5f9b46679b5a9dea0121c19b#5db23dcd5f9b46679b5a9dea0121c19b Jeremy W 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 Yeah, I gotta agree with Keskos. Don't read the tabloid news, Slashdot is the only true source of information.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/2c0ebdd081594fdda9839dea0121c1ec#2c0ebdd081594fdda9839dea0121c1ec Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:32:36 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/2c0ebdd081594fdda9839dea0121c1ec#2c0ebdd081594fdda9839dea0121c1ec Manip2 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Manip2/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
Keskos wrote:
No Slashdot is for small kids. It makes you believe that Apache is GPLed.


Your right, kids can enjoy slashdot just as much as adults, this is a lot to do with the high quality of editing and varied content. So if your young, old or interested check out slashdot.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/bfedcf750c7d4096aeaa9dea0121c23c#bfedcf750c7d4096aeaa9dea0121c23c Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:42:38 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/bfedcf750c7d4096aeaa9dea0121c23c#bfedcf750c7d4096aeaa9dea0121c23c Manip2 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Manip2/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 I nearly fell off my chair laughing at this. Well done Manip Big Smile

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/ba2091feef394788a4a79dea0121c264#ba2091feef394788a4a79dea0121c264 Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:45:33 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/ba2091feef394788a4a79dea0121c264#ba2091feef394788a4a79dea0121c264 Jeremy W 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 Tongue Out I'm still giggly Tongue Out

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/1efe59366ccc4336a17e9dea0121c2b3#1efe59366ccc4336a17e9dea0121c2b3 Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:49:56 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/1efe59366ccc4336a17e9dea0121c2b3#1efe59366ccc4336a17e9dea0121c2b3 Jeremy W 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
Jeremy W. wrote:
Tongue Out I'm still giggly Tongue Out


Jeremy, why do you repeat the same thing over and over again? Isn't that spamming according to you. Please stop it. We understood you are laughing.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/a66e5a83b74b420db5179dea0121c2dc#a66e5a83b74b420db5179dea0121c2dc Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:53:45 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/a66e5a83b74b420db5179dea0121c2dc#a66e5a83b74b420db5179dea0121c2dc Keskos 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Keskos/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
Keskos wrote:
Jeremy W. wrote: Tongue Out I'm still giggly Tongue Out


Jeremy, why do you repeat the same thing over and over again? Isn't that spamming according to you. Please stop it. We understood you are laughing.


I am quoting this post, in case you edit it.

Why did I post it? Because you "made a funny", just like Manip did. I noticed your edit of my quote and thought it was humorous.

It was a tip of the hat. A thank you.

Oh, yes, it was spam too. I'm the king of spam, long live the king!

/me is still giggly.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/d460c807ba934e40a4399dea0121c307#d460c807ba934e40a4399dea0121c307 Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:55:20 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/d460c807ba934e40a4399dea0121c307#d460c807ba934e40a4399dea0121c307 Jeremy W 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
rjdohnert wrote:
Apparantly someone cares about Linux.  California is looking at deploying Linux and other Open Source solutions.  I am not a Linux cheerleader but heey people are looking for alternatives and these constant daily reports about Microsoft security flaws is not helping.  Sure all the SP2 reported "flaws" have all been half-baked bullshit FUD attacks with no substance decision makers with Little or no tech knowledge do take these into account.


The money they save in the startup cost will be nothing compared to the money they'll lose in the long term.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/a9417ec76c644c43ad719dea0121c331#a9417ec76c644c43ad719dea0121c331 Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:28:04 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/a9417ec76c644c43ad719dea0121c331#a9417ec76c644c43ad719dea0121c331 Shining Arcanine 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Shining Arcanine/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004 I think everyone assumes the browsers wars 2004 will be IE against FF/Mozilla but they have forgotten a more interesting browser.. my browser.. VBScript Explorer

 Address.jpg

Output.jpg

It might not have flashy features like forms or images or markup .. but it is faster.. I believe in a few years everyone will be using my browser for their day to day browsing. I have already had some interest from AOL to replace their aging AOL / IE interface.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/7227b8058cfc41edae509dea0121c35c#7227b8058cfc41edae509dea0121c35c Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:29:08 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/7227b8058cfc41edae509dea0121c35c#7227b8058cfc41edae509dea0121c35c Manip2 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Manip2/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
Shining Arcanine wrote:
rjdohnert wrote:Apparantly someone cares about Linux.  California is looking at deploying Linux and other Open Source solutions.  I am not a Linux cheerleader but heey people are looking for alternatives and these constant daily reports about Microsoft security flaws is not helping.  Sure all the SP2 reported "flaws" have all been half-baked bullshit FUD attacks with no substance decision makers with Little or no tech knowledge do take these into account.


The money they save in the startup cost will be nothing compared to the money they'll lose in the long term.

Thing is you can't be definate about that. Money is saved due to the ability to use old hardware with a new OS, but only time will tell if money is saved in the long term.

Have there been any cases of companies migrating to Linux and then moving back to Windows? I mean complete (or near complete) migration, not moving back halfway through.

Does anyone with Linux move to Windows - as long as they have the software they need, they may never do so?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/9b4b7c95aba24a649e1c9dea0121c389#9b4b7c95aba24a649e1c9dea0121c389 Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:42:31 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/9b4b7c95aba24a649e1c9dea0121c389#9b4b7c95aba24a649e1c9dea0121c389 sbc 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/sbc/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
sbc wrote:
Shining Arcanine wrote:
rjdohnert wrote:Apparantly someone cares about Linux.  California is looking at deploying Linux and other Open Source solutions.  I am not a Linux cheerleader but heey people are looking for alternatives and these constant daily reports about Microsoft security flaws is not helping.  Sure all the SP2 reported "flaws" have all been half-baked bullshit FUD attacks with no substance decision makers with Little or no tech knowledge do take these into account.


The money they save in the startup cost will be nothing compared to the money they'll lose in the long term.

Thing is you can't be definate about that. Money is saved due to the ability to use old hardware with a new OS, but only time will tell if money is saved in the long term


When I refer to the startup cost, I'm referring to that as well. They're only hurting themselves in the long term.

sbc wrote:
Have there been any cases of companies migrating to Linux and then moving back to Windows? I mean complete (or near complete) migration, not moving back halfway through.


I'm sure that there were a few.

sbc wrote:
Does anyone with Linux move to Windows - as long as they have the software they need, they may never do so?


Netcraft reported that 5,000 Linux servers switched to Windows 2003 a few months after it came out. Last check most corporations don't switch until a year or two after a new OS has come out so it can be thoroughly tested for bugs.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/ed913d2b9763425f82aa9dea0121c3c2#ed913d2b9763425f82aa9dea0121c3c2 Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:54:09 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/ed913d2b9763425f82aa9dea0121c3c2#ed913d2b9763425f82aa9dea0121c3c2 Shining Arcanine 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Shining Arcanine/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
sbc wrote:
Thing is you can't be definate about that. Money is saved due to the ability to use old hardware with a new OS, but only time will tell if money is saved in the long term.


Reality is that these companies are NOT reusing hardware, because by law they need to have support contracts, and support contracts are VERY expensive to renew.

Just to give you an idea, we have about 40 "old" (just came off warranty) Proliant servers. They were "top of the line" (ish) when they came out.

To renew support for these? 600$/month each. That's 550$/month more than the cost of support for the first 4 years, and is actually 150$/month more than buying brand new hardware to replace these.

So, no, the argument that Linux is cheaper for large enterprises and governments because it allows them to reuse hardware is hogwash.

Now, that said, for smaller companies it may make sense for just that reason. However, considering lease rates are just so good right now, most companies find they can do more with new hardware than they could do with old ones like consolidating services, better failover, etc...

So it's really not as simple as "0$ for new OS that'll last longer". That's not to say that it can't be that simple (things like DNS, for instance). Just that it's not that simple...

Sorry for the long response!

edit: And, yes, I know you already said you weren't sure if it would save money long term, so I'm not "arguing" with you Smiley

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/7319e806be264c9e89959dea0121c3f0#7319e806be264c9e89959dea0121c3f0 Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:59:31 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/7319e806be264c9e89959dea0121c3f0#7319e806be264c9e89959dea0121c3f0 Jeremy W 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
Shining Arcanine wrote:

When I refer to the startup cost, I'm referring to that as well. They're only hurting themselves in the long term.


Funny. I've always heard people talk about it the other way around. That the problem is the initial cost of educating people to use a non-Windows system, and that the money is saved in the long run by not having to upgrade when Microsoft tells them to. Being able to continue running old hardware used to be true. But Linux has grown to be just as hungry as Windows.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/c1532e7f5233458b9e849dea0121c41a#c1532e7f5233458b9e849dea0121c41a Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:04:11 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/c1532e7f5233458b9e849dea0121c41a#c1532e7f5233458b9e849dea0121c41a lars 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/lars/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
rjdohnert wrote:
IE is dead in the water.  i like Netscape and firefox and that is only until Apple comes out with Safari for the PC.  I only use IE for two things, Channel 9 and Windows update.


I wish I could write a software like IE and let it die and have 90% of the market share. It would be awesome.

I use firefox mostly now.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/221fc5ffff6340a7a2ae9dea0121c110#221fc5ffff6340a7a2ae9dea0121c110 Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:54:07 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/221fc5ffff6340a7a2ae9dea0121c110#221fc5ffff6340a7a2ae9dea0121c110 Keskos 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Keskos/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
rjdohnert wrote:
Apparantly someone cares about Linux.  California is looking at deploying Linux and other Open Source solutions.  I am not a Linux cheerleader but heey people are looking for alternatives and these constant daily reports about Microsoft security flaws is not helping.  Sure all the SP2 reported "flaws" have all been half-baked bullshit FUD attacks with no substance decision makers with Little or no tech knowledge do take these into account.


If you are making a decision based on what you read on the web, good luck.

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]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/8743583001064dca87719dea0121c28b#8743583001064dca87719dea0121c28b Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:55:14 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/8743583001064dca87719dea0121c28b#8743583001064dca87719dea0121c28b Keskos 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Keskos/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - Browser Wars 2004
Manip2 wrote:
Yeah, I gotta agree with Keskos. Don't read the tabloid news, Slashdot is the only true source of information.


No Slashdot makes you believe that Apache is GPLed.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/557f2bdc7dca461ebba99dea0121c213#557f2bdc7dca461ebba99dea0121c213 Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:51:35 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/12625-Browser-Wars-2004/557f2bdc7dca461ebba99dea0121c213#557f2bdc7dca461ebba99dea0121c213 Keskos 32 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Keskos/Discussions/RSS