Apple Media Centre

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0511macmini2.html

if true, could this be the death of the media centre as promoted by MS?  One wonders if MS should start getting more into the Hardware market by producing their own range of PC's and competing with Dell/HP/IBM etc as to promote their own products

Its funny, because I think I ranted that the mini would have made a great media centre if only they had the right connectors with it when it first came out...

Recently a colleague got one of these (pop ups blah), which I think are great but then again its missing one thing - a DVD recorder. How much harder would it be to include that? That would be the killer devide for me for the living room.

So - listenign Apple or whoever? Make this thing, but make sure it has:

Two tuners.
Upgradble HDD.
DVD writer.
Composite video, SCART & S-video output - probably 5.1 sound, too.

And make sure I can just plug it in, and it works. No messing.

In a nice looking box (like the mini) this would kick arse.

Tensor wrote:

So - listenign Apple or whoever? Make this thing, but make sure it has:

Two tuners.
Upgradble HDD.
DVD writer.
Composite video, SCART & S-video output - probably 5.1 sound, too.

And make sure I can just plug it in, and it works. No messing.

In a nice looking box (like the mini) this would kick arse.

Don't forget 720i and 1080i HD output without DRM or PVP

fair enough on the high def, but do you seriously expect them not to put drm on it? Yeah you would like it, but they wont do it, and most people wont care.

About time they did one.

I think everybody would benefit from a bit of Apple vs Microsoft media centre competition.

 

Most definitely.

Apple is entering the Media Center Kill Zone. More info here.

Next year, both Microsoft and Apple will have the largest "new product pipeline" in the respective company's history.

You must admit, for elegant design of consumer products, Apple is king.

Just an historical question...

Did Apple ever released a product that was competing with an existing Microsoft's one and managed to "kill" it? Or even provide some significant competition?

Also remember that MCE is now shipping on almost half of all the desktops sold at retail...

W3bbo wrote:

Tensor wrote: So - listenign Apple or whoever? Make this thing, but make sure it has: Two tuners. Upgradble HDD. DVD writer. Composite video, SCART & S-video output - probably 5.1 sound, too. And make sure I can just plug it in, and it works. No messing. In a nice looking box (like the mini) this would kick arse.

Don't forget 720i and 1080i HD output without DRM or PVP

And it'll come in a full tower case...    The mac mini doesn't have the power to be a real threat.  It can't have much power it's too small to have proper cooling.  It's just not possible for it to be a really good media center.  Maybe sometime in the future.  But then how will they keep the price down to make it competitive.  Historically, Apple computers are much more expensive and have to rely on "quality" of product.

PaoloM wrote:

Did Apple ever released a product that was competing with an existing Microsoft's one and managed to "kill" it? Or even provide some significant competition?

Also remember that MCE is now shipping on almost half of all the desktops sold at retail...

That is excellent historical perspective, but I would remind you of the one thing that completely changes the equation:

The iPod.

Apple owns the digital music player market.  The latest model plays video and is FLYING off the shelves.  The iTunes Music Store sold over a million videos in less than 20 days after they started.  Disney is about to start using the video iPod for movie trailers and promotional content.

People are craving video content to fill up their iPods.

So if Apple comes out with a media player Mac mini, and if it has a hardware H.264 encoder, Front Row 2.0 with the Apple Remote, and the rumored built-in iPod Dock... it won't kill MCE at first.

It will kill TiVo.  (That's why TiVo recently announced they will support transcoding content to the iPod.)

THEN Apple will kill MCE.

Apple advantages over Microsoft:

- Cost of player.  Microsoft BLEW IT on Portable Media Centers by making them big, ugly, and too expensive -- $500 for a bulky 20 GB Creative Zen Vision vs. $300 for a sleek 30 GB iPod.

- Cost of computer.  Mac minis start at $499.  Media Center PCs only recently have dropped in price.

- Codec.  Apple will use Quicktime, probably with H.264 or MPEG-4.  Either of those might be more efficient than the Windows Media codec used in Media Center, thus allowing Apple to store more shows at the same quality, or the same number of shows with a higher video quality.

- Hollywood connections.  Jobs already has Pixar and Disney in his pocket, which allows him to make episodes of Lost and Desperate Housewives available for download from the iTunes Music Store the day after they air.  Media Center doesn't have an integrated Music Store offering video for sale.

For Microsoft to win, 1) the player must be cheaper, 2) the computer must be cheaper, 3) the codec must be at least as good, and 4) they will need to sell video online.

Points 1-3 are technological and I could see Microsoft playing catch-up, possibly, particularly with a Vista-based MCE.

I don't see Point 4 happening overnight.  And that's the real key.

The iPod is the Trojan Horse.  It got into everyone's pocket.  Now Jobs is going to leverage that to get into everyone's living room. 

People had trouble filling up their 30 GB and 60 GB iPods with music.  Now that they can load up videos, this won't be a problem, thus driving long-term increases in capacity and continuing needs to "upgrade."  The long-term outlook is rosy.

I'd like to quote something Beer said in another thread about consistency in UI design (he was arguing against forced consistency):

Beer28 wrote:

Is your computer a tool or an entertainment system similar to a television set?

The visionaries have seen the answer to that question, and it is: BOTH.

First one to replace the TV wins. 

Karim wrote:

That is excellent historical perspective, but I would remind you of the one thing that completely changes the equation:

The iPod.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. However, I would remind you of the one thing that changes the equation once again:

The XBox

PVR + Games Console + Internet appliance could well be the killer product. Sure it'd need MSFT to fuse MCE with the 360, but the media xtender concept seems to be heading in that direction already. And historically Windows boxes have always managed to win on price.

Karim wrote:

That is excellent historical perspective, but I would remind you of the one thing that completely changes the equation:

The iPod.

But when the iPod came out, there was no corresponding Microsoft offering. The only other choices at the time were some Creative and some Rio models, that were pretty much MP3 only players.

Karim wrote:

Apple owns the digital music player market. 

Yes, they rightfully do.

Karim wrote:

So if Apple comes out with a media player Mac mini, and if it has a hardware H.264 encoder, Front Row 2.0 with the Apple Remote, and the rumored built-in iPod Dock... it won't kill MCE at first.

I don't know... FrontRow is a very half hearted attempt, designed mostly for "demo effect". We know nothing about this fabled hardware, so I can't even try to go into speculations, I remember when the Mac mini was announced, it was supposed to finally "kill" Dell (that didn't happen) and become the HTPC of choice (that didn't happen either). Actually, Apple never released sales figure of the mini SKU alone, and going by past history, when Apple doesn't do that it means that sales are underwhelming.

Karim wrote:

It will kill TiVo.  (That's why TiVo recently announced they will support transcoding content to the iPod.)

TiVo was supposedly in some sort of deal with Apple about that, but then the deal fell thru and TiVo decided to go ahead and offer transcoding with ot without Apple's "approval". You'll also notice that some networks (ABC, aka Disney, NBC, etc) have started making vague legal noises towards TiVo about that...

Karim wrote:

THEN Apple will kill MCE.

That assuming MCE stops developing. We already know that's not the case.

Karim wrote:

- Cost of player.  Microsoft BLEW IT on Portable Media Centers by making them big, ugly, and too expensive -- $500 for a bulky 20 GB Creative Zen Vision vs. $300 for a sleek 30 GB iPod.

You may think of the Creative Portable Media Center, as the Zen Vision is more or less the size of the new iPod. But you also have to remember the size of the screen (much bigger on the Zens, really cramped on the iPod). Your eyes may be still sharp, mine said byebye and went on some carribean island, leaving me with glasses and contacts since I was a youngling.

Karim wrote:

- Codec.  Apple will use Quicktime, probably with H.264 or MPEG-4.  Either of those might be more efficient than the Windows Media codec used in Media Center, thus allowing Apple to store more shows at the same quality, or the same number of shows with a higher video quality.

We don't know anything about this. MCE records shows straight  in MPEG2, wrapped in the DVR-MS format for metadata and indexing. I don't know of any hardware encoder for MPEG-4...

Karim wrote:

- Hollywood connections.  Jobs already has Pixar and Disney in his pocket, which allows him to make episodes of Lost and Desperate Housewives available for download from the iTunes Music Store the day after they air.  Media Center doesn't have an integrated Music Store offering video for sale.

Absolutely true. MCE, on the other hand, has the Online Spotlight to stream videos from many providers, but yeah, I don't recall any option to buy and download.

I wouldn't underestimate things like this.

That's a TIVO killer. And it suits Microsoft perfectly -

Microsoft supplies the software, other people build the harware.

If that idea catches on....

PaoloM wrote:

Also remember that MCE is now shipping on almost half of all the desktops sold at retail...

Sounds a bit high to me.. Where did you get that number?

Sorry, forgot the link. Let me try to fish it out of the tangled interwebs...

I got this for now (Ars is a very reputable source of stuff )

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051014-5435.html

Good for Ars:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051129-5643.html

Yet anothe reason to read Ars for news. That is, if you don't already.

PaoloM wrote:

MCE records shows straight  in MPEG2, wrapped in the DVR-MS format for metadata and indexing. I don't know of any hardware encoder for MPEG-4...

There's a $150 standalone MPEG-4 recorder, designed mainly for the PSP:

http://www.neurosaudio.com/store/recorder2.asp

There are also several MPEG-4 encoding chipsets out there from the usual suspects (Broadcom et al.)

I wasn't sure about the DVR-MS format, but if it uses MPEG-2 as you say, then yeah, Apple will have the upper hand with either MPEG-4, or H.264 (MPEG-4 part 10).  Apple is pushing hard for H.264 as it will offer improvements over MPEG-4 part 2 -- and DVD quality in half the bitrate of MPEG-2.

PaoloM wrote:

I got this for now (Ars is a very reputable source of stuff )

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051014-5435.html

Interesting, I hadn't known about that.

Well this changes the mix obviously, if Microsoft can sell video content, that at least makes it possible for them (in my mind) to compete with Apple, once they've addressed the technological issues (pricing on player, computer, and codec efficiency).

The article says that "You can pay for content by the program, or by subscription."  It's unclear whether it's an apples-to-apples (no pun intended) comparison or not.  The Akimbo web site says that their service costs $9.99 per month.  That is completely unlike the iTunes Music Store model, where video content goes for $1.99 a throw.

Once you download the content from the iTunes Music Store, you own it.  It's yours.  You don't have to periodically check the rights on it to make sure you can still play it.  It's rights-managed, of course -- you can't share it with friends -- but you can play it on other computers or portable devices that you own.

The Akimbo/Microsoft offering seems to be more in the Napster vein -- you have SUBSCRIPTION access to a lot of content, NONE of which is ever really "yours" or intended to be copied from one machine to another.  Some programs hang out in your Akimbo cache "as long as you are a member of the Akimbo service," others "have a limited viewing period, typically 30 days, and will automatically be removed from your library upon expiration."

I'm not sure if these guys understand that people like OWNING stuff.

The last thing someone wants to do is come home, decide they want to watch something they downloaded 31 days ago, only to find that -- oops! -- it's no longer in your Akimbo cache, and now you have to download the whole stupid show over again.

The Akimbo/MS solution isn't so much purchasing content as renting it.

There's room for both models, but I think the success of the iTunes Music Store shows that people like BUYING things that don't EXPIRE.