Arguments for C# over JAVA

Hi guys, I need some advice please.

We are soon to begin a new project and we currently have a team of 4 looking into the toolsets that will use.  The project management want full traceability from Requirements through to code via testing, use cases and class design.

They have so far considered offerings from IBM (Rational Rose or whatever it is now called) and Telelogic.  (To be considered soon Borland and Microsoft Team Foundation).

The problem is that both the IBM offering and Telelogic offering do all the traceability that the requirements / analysts want, however the Dev's want C# as their language of choice and the support for C# in these tools is not good.  They both have plug-ins, but appear not easy to use and slow and do not tie in with Visual Studio 2005, our preffered IDE.

Of course, now the project manager wants us (the Devs) to use JAVA as our language and none of us want this.

So, we need some arguments for C# over JAVA.  This is what we have so far (Note, all the dev's are existing Delphi/C++ programmers and we have therefore ruled out VB.NET or other languages). 

1. C# is the natural choice, as it is written by the people who design the platform that the software will run on.
2. C# interfaces with COM really easily (We are currently unsure how JAVA interfaces with COM objects)
3. JAVA User Interface is poor and looks average at best compared to that generated by native Win32
4. The system will be hosted on Windows XP currently and we have no current requirement to run on other OS's
5. The App is graphically intensive and we will want to take advantage of WPF when it is released and we do not believe that JAVA will give us this.

Ideally, I would like us to use Microsoft Team Foundation / Team System, but there is no requirements support.  The only requirements interface that we know of is Caliber RM from Borland.  This is what we currently use and have had lots of database corruption issues and the Requirements guys dont like it and want a better product like DOORS (From Telelogic).

So does anyone know of any products that would give us full traceability from Requirements to code or that would plug into Visual Studio Team Foundation. 

We are also considering a product called Enterprise Architect as our design tool and possibly writing a bespoke interface between it and whatever the choice of Requirements / Test Management / Analysis tool turns out to be.

Sorry for the long ramble, but we just dont want to write the new system in JAVA, because we are C# fanboys and believe it to be the better solution.  (But we need more arguments that gut feelings)

Thanks

Mike

Well I have some arguments in favor of java.
But first a general comment:

- Have you tought of formulating some general criteria for selecting a language in which to write the program?
Some arguments could be, will it have to run on both linux or windows? Is it going to use external interfaces like COM? What specific things do you use that java or C# doesnt have?

Dont understand me wrong here, I'm a huge fan of C#, but I like to write a good piece of java just as good.
Here's some arguments why you could choose to use java:

- Java can be used on more platforms than just windows
- There's a huge amount of free libraries available for java, which are pretty good documented and easy to use


Good luck selecting the right language/framework for the job

I personally think one of the biggest arguments in the favor of C# is that Java is painfully slow.  Almost irregardless of what the application is or does, it's bloated and slow.  Look at Eclipse as a good first example... that has to be one of the worst, if not the absolute worst, IDEs I've ever had the displeasure of using.  Horrifically slow, bloated, etc.

A few of the others I think you already enumerated.  With Java, you'll spend a fair amount of time setting up just the UI for each form and the layout of them.  Not saying that it's overly difficult or complex, but it IS time-consuming.  With C#, you can concentrate on getting the functionality in and the form almost comes implicitly, and much faster.  You can ship the product faster, and it already has the 'familiar' Windows look and feel.

My opinion anyway.

C# + .Net is Java done right.  Mainly because Microsoft waited to enter the market until Java had been around for a while and took care of the majority of it's weaknesses.  Still, there are advantages to both:

Java:
* Completely cross-platform, the same code runs identically on Windows, Linux, and Mac, and is supported by the same people.
* Lots of free libraries for Java, since Java's been around longer.
* Java can be used to create cross-platform web applets that are more complex than Flash movies.  C#/.Net can't do this.

C# + .Net:
* Very fast as it uses the native UI toolkit rather than recreating the look of the platform or creating its own look and feel.
* Supports COM/.Net/native interop, allowing developers to reuse code written in (1) another .Net language, (2) a COM application, or (3) a completely native library like you'd reference in C++ (such as the Win32 API or MFC).
* IDE, although slightly buggy (esp. on the webapp side) is faster and easier to develop with than any Java IDE available.  This especially shows when writing GUI applications.

That just scratches the surface.  It's really a matter of which one fits your needs the best.

littleguru wrote:

You can't do a C# versus Java. You need to do a .NET versus Java.

C# is just a language on the .NET platform. It's not important if we talk about C#, VB.NET, managed C++ or any other .NET language... They are all .NET.

I think most people have not understood what .NET really is...

Thanks littleguru, but my request was for C# versus JAVA.  I have a full understanding of what .NET is as opposed to C#, but the people that I have to deal with are only interested in what languages they can support with their integrated toolsets (IBM, Telelogic etc).

Thanks C.R.S and Kental giving feedback on the Eclipse IDE, never having used it ,this is good information.  Also, I had heard from a colleague that JAVA was difficult to setup re forms etc.

Also, wondering if any of you guys in your daytime jobs use the full Requirements to Code traceability model and if so, how are things linked and what tools are in use.

Cheers for feedback so far

Mike

m1keread wrote:

littleguru wrote:You can't do a C# versus Java. You need to do a .NET versus Java. C# is just a language on the .NET platform. It's not important if we talk about C#, VB.NET, managed C++ or any other .NET language... They are all .NET. I think most people have not understood what .NET really is...

Thanks littleguru, but my request was for C# versus JAVA.  I have a full understanding of what .NET is as opposed to C#, but the people that I have to deal with are only interested in what languages they can support with their integrated toolsets (IBM, Telelogic etc).

Thanks C.R.S and Kental giving feedback on the Eclipse IDE, never having used it ,this is good information.  Also, I had heard from a colleague that JAVA was difficult to setup re forms etc.

Also, wondering if any of you guys in your daytime jobs use the full Requirements to Code traceability model and if so, how are things linked and what tools are in use.

Cheers for feedback so far

Mike

C# versus Java?

C# offers pointers in unsafe blocks, renames a few keywords, has a using() block, etc...  otherwise, it's pretty much identical to Java as a language.

If you want to know about IDEs, GUI generation, etc., you want to know about .Net versus Java, NOT C# versus Java.

CannotResolveSymbol wrote:

C# versus Java?

C# offers pointers in unsafe blocks, renames a few keywords, has a using() block, etc...  otherwise, it's pretty much identical to Java as a language.

If you want to know about IDEs, GUI generation, etc., you want to know about .Net versus Java, NOT C# versus Java.

Thanks CRS, maybe it is .NET over JAVA, having thought about it.  But the view I have to get over to the project managers is one of C# over JAVA.

I suppose it is more than just .NET though, because what I am interested in is getting across the arguments for developing using Visual Studio 2005 (Not interested in SharpDevelop or Delphi 2006) on the windows platform against developing using JAVA (under Eclipse? Dont really know) on the windows platform.

Ideas like the COM/native code interop, IDE better, GUI better etc.

C# is an open standard, Java is not.

m1keread wrote:

CannotResolveSymbol wrote: C# versus Java? C# offers pointers in unsafe blocks, renames a few keywords, has a using() block, etc...  otherwise, it's pretty much identical to Java as a language. If you want to know about IDEs, GUI generation, etc., you want to know about .Net versus Java, NOT C# versus Java.

Thanks CRS, maybe it is .NET over JAVA, having thought about it.  But the view I have to get over to the project managers is one of C# over JAVA.

I suppose it is more than just .NET though, because what I am interested in is getting across the arguments for developing using Visual Studio 2005 (Not interested in SharpDevelop or Delphi 2006) on the windows platform against developing using JAVA (under Eclipse? Dont really know) on the windows platform.

Ideas like the COM/native code interop, IDE better, GUI better etc.

There are two major Java IDEs, both of which I've used.  Both pale in comparison to Visual Studio in most respects, IMO.

Eclipse:
* Uses SWT widget toolkit, which is faster than Swing but still slower than a pure native GUI.
* Code editor is tolerable, supports the typical intellisense and such.
* GUI editor is only a plugin, which may or may not work--  the one time I used it, I created a GUI one day, saved it, and it wouldn't load in the editor at all the next day.
* CVS support can be best described by words that this forum would filter.

Netbeans:
(Note:  I have not used Netbeans 5.0's GUI editor yet, because it was released recently and I haven't felt the urge to download it.  It is supposed to bring GUI construction closer to par with Visual Studio)
* Swing GUI.  GUI is entirely generated by Swing/Java 2D.  This means it is very, very, very slow and not even up to par with Eclipse.  Swing is getting faster, but the biggest performance increases are in JDK 6.0, which isn't yet released.
* Certain areas of configuration are awkward:  has very few preferences dialogs and requires you to wade through code-designer type property sheets for everything else.
* Traditional Java layout managers (not the one included with Netbeans 5.0, though) are very strict and require your components to be in their fixed layout:  GridBagLayout can do everything you need (occasionally with another layout manager inside a cell), but it takes a lot of tweaking and experimenting to get it just right.  Visual Studio takes a more free-form approach to GUI building, providing guides but not forcing you to use them.

I can't advise you as to graphics support between .Net and Java:  .Net uses GDI+, Java uses Java2D, and I have little experience with either.

On the subject of COM interop, I believe the only way you can do this in Java is to use the Java Native Interface, basically writing a C++ wrapper around your COM objects to expose them to the JVM.

I've found a tool, J-Integra for COM, which can talk to COM objects for you, but that costs $399 per developer seat plus a $149 per-client license.

If interfacing to existing COM objects is a requirement, I'd forget about Java.

If you need to make use of any OS facilities that the runtime library doesn't directly support, P/Invoke from .NET is far easier than JNI.

It's all about the libraries.

Are there libraries for Java that would facilitate building the project?

Are there libraries for C# that would facilitate building the project?

Both languages have proven their worth in their respective fields.  C# has one massive library that comes with it, Java has been around longer and thus has more third-party libraries written for it.

WillemM wrote:

- There's a huge amount of free libraries available for java, which are pretty good documented

Sorry, I couldn't resist... A point must be presented of someone writing about a product being "good documented".  That is all.

There are two things that you should consider:
1. Developer proficiency in the languages.
Figure out the true proficiency of your team.  That is not just knowing how to throw a program together, but intimate knowledge of the language and tools.
2. Libraries
The Java API is ridiculously large and the .NET library is still catching up.  On the other hand, if your not supporting platforms other than windows and you are a proficient .NET programmer then accessing the Windows libraries should not be a big problem.
If you really want highly graphical Win apps, then my suggestion would probably be .NET.  There is the managed DirectX API and WPF is not too far away.  I don't know what exactly your app is, but just make sure you have everything that you will need in the libraries.  Good luck.

Language, platform and tools should be chosen based on business needs, not based on developer preferences. Choose what will best suit the needs of your customer.

Is this enterprise system only able to run in a browser or can it be Windows Forms?

There are new tools and frameworks available for .NET 2.0

amotif wrote:

Language, platform and tools should be chosen based on business needs, not based on developer preferences. Choose what will best suit the needs of your customer.

Fair point, we are in the situation currently that we are beginning a new project and one of the first tasks that will be performed is the gathering of the business requirements and then forumulating them into system and functional requirements.  Therefore they need a tool to store and manipulate the requirements in.

Also, they want (may not actually get) full traceability from requirements to code, therefore they need the tools in place before they begin identifying the business needs.

JohnAskew wrote:

Is this enterprise system only able to run in a browser or can it be Windows Forms?

There are new tools and frameworks available for .NET 2.0

My gut feeling is that we will keep it as a Winforms application and it will not be hosted in a browser.  It is an internal application and will never be hosted on the net, but there is a very small chance that it may be required on a secure intranet.