British ID Cards: You Ready?

British ID Cards to be Made Compulsory?

BBC wrote:

Identity cards will be made compulsory if Labour wins the next election, Home Secretary Charles Clarke has said.
Under the current scheme all passport applicants from 2008 will have to get an ID card - although there will be a brief opt-out period until 2010.

But Mr Clarke said he plans legislation after the next election to make it compulsory for everyone to get a card, whether or not they have a passport.

The Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats both oppose ID cards.

But Mr Clarke said he did not think the opposition would be able to stop the scheme because by 2010 a "large number of people... should either have cards or hope to have cards".

But he added: "I don't think there is any benefit in opting out at all. Anyone who opts out in my opinion is foolish."

Sure seems like a lot of "information" they are keeping track of, including your fingerprints, biometric info, how many times others have requested your ID, etc. I can't imagine what that database will look like.

billh wrote:

British ID Cards to be Made Compulsory?

BBC wrote:Identity cards will be made compulsory if Labour wins the next election, Home Secretary Charles Clarke has said. Under the current scheme all passport applicants from 2008 will have to get an ID card - although there will be a brief opt-out period until 2010. But Mr Clarke said he plans legislation after the next election to make it compulsory for everyone to get a card, whether or not they have a passport. The Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats both oppose ID cards. But Mr Clarke said he did not think the opposition would be able to stop the scheme because by 2010 a "large number of people... should either have cards or hope to have cards". But he added: "I don't think there is any benefit in opting out at all. Anyone who opts out in my opinion is foolish."

Sure seems like a lot of "information" they are keeping track of, including your fingerprints, biometric info, how many times others have requested your ID, etc. I can't imagine what that database will look like.

Ready? We are. The software won't be. This *is* the UK we are talking about, couldn't deliver a government software project if the economy depended on it.

I'm fine with the ID cards, in principle.

But I'm not okay with the database that the ID cards are attached to.

That, plus the fact the ID cards will eventually be out-sourced, along with the database, means I simply cannot trust this identity scheme, hence why I'm against the ID cards now, before it gets worse.

Rossj wrote:

Ready? We are. The software won't be. This *is* the UK we are talking about, couldn't deliver a government software project if the economy depended on it.

The Congestion Charge system was written in C# and delivered on-time with zilch technical problems;

The media reports every "computer system failure", but never mentions the successes. For shame.

W3bbo wrote:

I'm fine with the ID cards, in principle.

But I'm not okay with the database that the ID cards are attached to.

That, plus the fact the ID cards will eventually be out-sourced, along with the database, means I simply cannot trust this identity scheme, hence why I'm against the ID cards now, before it gets worse.

That's where my concern would probably lie, too...with the database on the backend.  I can only imagine the kind of queries they could come up with...and who says they would have to tell anybody about what they were looking at? I'm sure this will be coming to the States in some form or another soon enough...

Edit: of course, the prevailing logic in all of this is that if you are not an illegal or a "terrorist" why worry? If you do not engage in criminal activity, what do you have to hide? That logic works until the definitions of "what is a terrorist" changes.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how fast that definition will change. For instance, in the States, there has been a ruckus about "domestic spying"...but of course, it is only on people communicating with foreign countries (or suspicious people in those countries). And then what happens when some of these suspicious people become legal citizens? Then the logic changes to "who can you trust? Even legal citizens are potential suspects!".  Then the spying goes completely domestic (wait, it pretty much already has, but they will finally acknowledge it in the news). 

It's a train of thought that is bound for a trainwreck.

Manip wrote:

Can you imagine if the government had a big database with everyone's name and address in it?! ... Oh wait, nevermind... 

I was once told (by someone in the utilities sector) that most utility details, gas etc, were stored in a single database, but each utility company was only allowed to look at the details of people that were their customers. Maybe the UK gov could just copy that instead?

My only issue with it (if I were British, since I'm not it doesn't matter to me) would be that personal data stored on the card (via 2D barcode or computer chip) could potentially be accessible to anyone with a scanner or a smart card reader.  Meaning that businesses could get an extremely thorough customer database of all kinds of information you didn't volutarily give out.  If they encrypt the data on the card, or don't digitally store it on the card at all, I'd be fine with it.

Of course, I'm not paranoid, so I wouldn't fight it if it weren't encrypted.  It would just irritate me.  (My driver's license has the info from the front encoded in a barcode on the back).

Manip wrote:

Can you imagine if the government had a big database with everyone's name and address in it?! ... Oh wait, nevermind...

Are names are already in a minimal of three databases all this might do is move them into one big one. It doesn't really change anything. The only slightly new thing here is finger-printing for the population. 

No kidding.  In the States, there are plenty of databases...but no nationwide I.D. card.  Sure, you can say that is what the Driver's License is, but each of those are different for each state, and I'm sure the databases are not too compatible.  There are also plenty of people who don't drive, some that do not work, etc.  Those people are in few databases.  And sure, background checks are becoming more common for jobs, housing, loans, etc.

What they are proposing for you is to track everybody...I dunno, I guess you think that rocks or something, either that or you really have no clue what is going on. I'm guessing that would include homeless people also?

Why would they need your fingerprints? I'm sure in your case, they would figure out a way around that through the broad category of "other biometric information". Whether this new "card" will prevent ID forgery is another thing...although I don't know how widespread that is over there.

My school already has implemented a biometrics system for the library; everyone had their fingerprints taken, it makes the chance for the rental of books under a false name much harder.

We also have cards that can be used all round school to pay for things and access things.

I really like the system and I am looking forward to having an ID Card.

Angus Higgins

Angus wrote:

My school already has implemented a biometrics system for the library; everyone had their fingerprints taken, it makes the chance for the rental of books under a false name much harder.

Until you check out "Catcher in the Rye".  Ever seen the movie "Conspiracy Theory"? [6]

Cornelius Ellsonpeter wrote:

Angus wrote:My school already has implemented a biometrics system for the library; everyone had their fingerprints taken, it makes the chance for the rental of books under a false name much harder.

Until you check out "Catcher in the Rye".  Ever seen the movie "Conspiracy Theory"?

Well, the system isn't in place to stop theft really, just so that all the books are brought back promptly; it would be much more profitable to steal a laptop, or projector. Nobody would bother stealing a book to be honest.

Angus Higgins

blowdart wrote:

Angus wrote: Well, the system isn't in place to stop theft really, just so that all the books are brought back promptly;

And why would having your fingerprint speed that up in a school library?

(*sigh* I must be getting old, when I was a student we questioned authority, we didn't accept things. And now, when I read Angus's response to ID cards it makes me worry for the future)

I'm not sure, but I think coupled with a new system, i.e. 'computerized' (the old one was traditional) it has allowed a print out of any student with out standing books to be printed off each day, thse people can be found and dealt with accordingly.

Angus Higgins

I check out stuff from the library all the time with a flimsy plastic card that has a barcode on it and nothing more.  It took them years to even get to that point (this is a county/public library though).  No fingerprints, though. Requesting fingerprints just seems like major overkill for a library system.  Or...could it be...could it be...conditioning?

:O

Besides, I've never really heard of any library card ID theft rings being busted, although, you never know...

billh wrote:

I check out stuff from the library all the time with a flimsy plastic card that has a barcode on it and nothing more.  It took them years to even get to that point (this is a county/public library though).  No fingerprints, though. It just seems like major overkill for a library system.  Or...could it be...could it be...conditioning?



Besides, I've never really heard of any library card ID theft rings being busted, although, you never know...

I've always had my suspicions that the school could have the fingerprints there so that the police can use them, but that isn't neccessarily true.

Angus Higgins

Zilch Problems with London COngestion charge system ? LOL

I assume 1000's of incorrect non payment notices issued including one for a tractor on a Farm in Scotland is zilch problems ? ROFL

Angus wrote:

billh wrote: I check out stuff from the library all the time with a flimsy plastic card that has a barcode on it and nothing more.  It took them years to even get to that point (this is a county/public library though).  No fingerprints, though. It just seems like major overkill for a library system.  Or...could it be...could it be...conditioning? Besides, I've never really heard of any library card ID theft rings being busted, although, you never know...

I've always had my suspicions that the school could have the fingerprints there so that the police can use them, but that isn't neccessarily true.

Angus Higgins

If its Great Britain you are talking about you can be SURE if there was an opportunity to misuse they will

billh wrote:

I check out stuff from the library all the time with a flimsy plastic card that has a barcode on it and nothing more.  It took them years to even get to that point (this is a county/public library though).  No fingerprints, though. Requesting fingerprints just seems like major overkill for a library system.  Or...could it be...could it be...conditioning?



Besides, I've never really heard of any library card ID theft rings being busted, although, you never know...

Its almost certianly an attempt to condition people to it.
We had a case in Britain of a School library in London for 4 to 12 year olds using a fingerprint system for taking books out  until a parent who was a lawyer found out from her child by chance. 
She raised hell over it and it was withdrawn.