Channel 9 Forums - Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product http://mschnlnine.vo.llnwd.net/d1/Dev/App_Themes/C9/images/feedimage.png Channel 9 Forums - Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums Channel 9 keeps you up to date with the latest news and behind the scenes info from Microsoft that developers love to keep up with. From LINQ to SilverLight – Watch videos and hear about all the cool technologies coming and the people behind them. http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums en Thu, 23 May 2013 02:33:59 GMT Thu, 23 May 2013 02:33:59 GMT Rev9 77 -77 -1 Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Quentin Clark announces in his blog that select technologies from WinFS will be integrated in ADO.NET 3 and Katmai (next release of SQL Server), but WinFS will no longer be continued as a separate product. That means that there once again will be no relational file system in the foreseeable future.
Wild guess: WinFS has been a pet project of Bill Gates. Doesn't seem to be one of Ray Ozzie.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/203237#203237 Fri, 23 Jun 2006 22:10:24 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/203237#203237 Martin Ennemoser 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/mawcc/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product It was a bad idea anyway.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/fe1bacb358084860a20b9deb0179f7ed#fe1bacb358084860a20b9deb0179f7ed Fri, 23 Jun 2006 22:11:22 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/fe1bacb358084860a20b9deb0179f7ed#fe1bacb358084860a20b9deb0179f7ed Manip 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Manip/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Having read the post, it doesn't seem as dire as you're suggesting. Basically, there was a recognition that WinFS was really a host of different technologies and was split along lines that made more sense. Roughly,

Angel The data API and model is being rolled into the next version of ADO.NET as LINQ and Entities, which were discussed in a recent video with Sam Drucker and Anders Hejlsberg. Seems reasaonable, since it would be cumbersome to have to learn one data API for the filesystem and another for everything else.

(b) The advances in self-management and integration of unstructured data are being put into the next release of SQL Server. Again, good call. It would have made absolutely no sense to offer a self-managing relational data store for free download and then try to sell a separate enterprise-grade RDBMS to go with it. Essentially, you'd be buying SQL Server for the reporting and data mining capabilities while you wondered why the management smarts weren't in SQL Server.

(c) Everything else goes... where? As for the UI and filesystem integration, my guess is a future release of Windows, which seems reasonable in that introducing these changes via a free add-on to existing Windows installs might be somewhat disorienting for many users. Much of the search functionality has mades its way into Vista. The part I was looking forward to was the common data synchronization engine, the need for which seems more obvious in light of all these "live" services; but then maybe that's the niche SQL Server Everywhere is targeting.

In short, it's messier than before, but I think the end goal is more or less the same.

WinFS is dead; long live WinFS! Smiley

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/efc537eedd7e442a9c569deb0179f81a#efc537eedd7e442a9c569deb0179f81a Fri, 23 Jun 2006 22:47:49 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/efc537eedd7e442a9c569deb0179f81a#efc537eedd7e442a9c569deb0179f81a BryanF 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/BryanF/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Well, Vista5384.4 are running on NTFS 3.1, same as XP, so that pretty much sets it for 2-3 years ahead.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/d2a96a89ea6149fb887a9deb0179f841#d2a96a89ea6149fb887a9deb0179f841 Fri, 23 Jun 2006 22:53:23 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/d2a96a89ea6149fb887a9deb0179f841#d2a96a89ea6149fb887a9deb0179f841 messerschmitt 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/messerschmitt/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product [C]

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/8ba545168d594c649fbd9deb0179f893#8ba545168d594c649fbd9deb0179f893 Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:06:04 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/8ba545168d594c649fbd9deb0179f893#8ba545168d594c649fbd9deb0179f893 DCMonkey 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/DCMonkey/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product I think that this is for the best. If the other major products all absorb WinFS features, it will make a relational file system (when it comes) more useful. Rather than being a stand alone product with it's own API's and schema's, it will be a rather painless upgrade, because all of the plumbing will already be there for the various platforms to use the data.


Edit: Sorry BryanF, I went to the bathroom while writing my post and didn't notice that I said mostly the same stuff I was in the process of typing.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/5cc317655e2f4c7ba4d69deb0179f86c#5cc317655e2f4c7ba4d69deb0179f86c Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:16:21 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/5cc317655e2f4c7ba4d69deb0179f86c#5cc317655e2f4c7ba4d69deb0179f86c kettch 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/kettch/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Lame.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/5ed03f3dafc94fe6a7479deb0179f8ba#5ed03f3dafc94fe6a7479deb0179f8ba Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:17:35 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/5ed03f3dafc94fe6a7479deb0179f8ba#5ed03f3dafc94fe6a7479deb0179f8ba Michael Griffiths 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Michael Griffiths/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product So it's down to "new version of ADO.Net"? Wow.  In with a bang, out with a whimper. What's the future of search technology on Windows?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/4a82da9f8455450ebc609deb0179f8e3#4a82da9f8455450ebc609deb0179f8e3 Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:19:27 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/4a82da9f8455450ebc609deb0179f8e3#4a82da9f8455450ebc609deb0179f8e3 Cairo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Cairo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
Cairo wrote:
So it's down to "new version of ADO.Net"? Wow.  In with a bang, out with a whimper. What's the future of search technology on Windows?



Trying to keep up with Spotlight most likely. The ability for 3rd parties to write protocol handlers to search inside non-filesystem stores (like Outlook PST files) is about the only thing they have on Apple at the moment.

I'm extremely disappointed in MS right now.

Boooo! Booooooooooo!

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/27c9b4cf53404d5eb2189deb0179f90c#27c9b4cf53404d5eb2189deb0179f90c Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:29:32 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/27c9b4cf53404d5eb2189deb0179f90c#27c9b4cf53404d5eb2189deb0179f90c DCMonkey 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/DCMonkey/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
Manip wrote:
It was a bad idea anyway.


How, exactly?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/911095c81e3e4a94b2099deb0179f933#911095c81e3e4a94b2099deb0179f933 Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:35:14 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/911095c81e3e4a94b2099deb0179f933#911095c81e3e4a94b2099deb0179f933 W3bbo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/W3bbo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
W3bbo wrote:

Manip wrote: It was a bad idea anyway.


How, exactly?


Files by their nature are an assembly of metadata... So they want to write a system that creates a relationship between metadata and more metadata in order to somehow make it easier to find the file ? ...

It sounds great on paper to add more information about a file, but in practise it will be no more useful than XPs comments (which nobody uses).

You're end up with a situation like the Windows Registry in which you have thousands of entries which contain completely useless information, and then are forced to try and clear out the data without damaging anything.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/39221d3dc76a4a5cb5869deb0179f95d#39221d3dc76a4a5cb5869deb0179f95d Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:53:48 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/39221d3dc76a4a5cb5869deb0179f95d#39221d3dc76a4a5cb5869deb0179f95d Manip 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Manip/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product It got axed.  Thats a shame.  many people were waiting on that technology.  There is another reason for you NOT to upgrade.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/4a2f9f49f88444659a179deb0179f985#4a2f9f49f88444659a179deb0179f985 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 03:42:50 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/4a2f9f49f88444659a179deb0179f985#4a2f9f49f88444659a179deb0179f985 rjdohnert 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/rjdohnert/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Bleh... what baffles me is how Vista can be three years late when only a handful of the promised features were actually implemented. Eye candy and security are nice features but they dont justify the prolonged delays. Microsoft really needs to organize their priorities and establish and manage efficent development teams. I hope this is a learning experience and that they'll strive to better meet deadlines in the future.


Regards,
Vincent

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/904016a101ab435993c49deb0179f9ad#904016a101ab435993c49deb0179f9ad Sat, 24 Jun 2006 04:03:36 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/904016a101ab435993c49deb0179f9ad#904016a101ab435993c49deb0179f9ad Xaero_Vincent 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Xaero_Vincent/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
mawcc wrote:
Wild guess: WinFS has been a pet project of Bill Gates. Doesn't seem to be one of Ray Ozzie.


Quite impressive - not only can Ray Ozzie make a split-second decision that instantly changes the direction in a company of 60,000 people, he can also do it two years before he fully replaces Bill Gates!
I'm guessing the two-year cooling period is just a code name for Ozzie having Bill tied up in his basement and signing everything he brings him?

In other words, remember that in a company this huge the people at the very top make large changes in direction, but rarely decide the fate of specific features or products.

I think the UI/filesystem integration is a very touchy subject. It's a pretty drastic change to the way we organize our files, and as such has to be implemented right. I prefer the current method with all of its problems to a half-assed implementation. Some may say that they've had years to get it right and still they failed. That may be true. But unlike some others here, I don't feel like anyone's promised me anything. A press release isn't a contract, and I doubt anyone has based their business plan on the existance of WinFS.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/bd273e54636441fbbc4b9deb0179f9d9#bd273e54636441fbbc4b9deb0179f9d9 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 06:25:23 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/bd273e54636441fbbc4b9deb0179f9d9#bd273e54636441fbbc4b9deb0179f9d9 Yggdrasil 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Yggdrasil/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
Xaero_Vincent wrote:
Eye candy and security are nice features but they dont justify the prolonged delays. Microsoft really needs to organize their priorities and establish and manage efficent development teams.


I think they have got their priorities straight.

Windows XP isn't lacking in features. It's got TONS of features. It's got great features. Where it's lacking is security, usability and occasionally stability.

I would much rather see Vista be an XP Redux done right, with these problems addressd, before we start doing completely new things without making sure we got our bases covered.

WinFS? Avalon/WPF? These are the real eye/geek candy. Brand new technologies are fun for us developer, but don't solve the real needs of the OS users.

I'm sure the Vienna teams are hard at work on brand spanking new features for us. I'm sure the MSResearch folk are thinking up god-knows-what. I'm also sure the Vista management knows what's important.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/c4989e5eb79049d198589deb0179fa03#c4989e5eb79049d198589deb0179fa03 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 06:30:31 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/c4989e5eb79049d198589deb0179fa03#c4989e5eb79049d198589deb0179fa03 Yggdrasil 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Yggdrasil/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product You've got to be kidding me...

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/6fe8424a945f4dd981ff9deb0179fa2c#6fe8424a945f4dd981ff9deb0179fa2c Sat, 24 Jun 2006 09:36:16 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/6fe8424a945f4dd981ff9deb0179fa2c#6fe8424a945f4dd981ff9deb0179fa2c Tom Servo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Tom Servo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product I hope Microsoft have learned from the Vista adventure that they dont have the capacity to re-invent a OS in one try, they should really do what Apple have done for the past six years -releasing somewhat minor but still substancial OS upgrades every year that really pushes the user experience forward.

Look at the 90's -3.11->98 was within a 5 year timeframe, NT 3.1->4.0 within just 3 years and all of them was a substancially upgrade for users

Another thing, if the pricing rumors for Vista are true, well this user just wont buy it, its not worth that kind of money. 

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/8f3df8a3d5c4442b87659deb0179fa55#8f3df8a3d5c4442b87659deb0179fa55 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 11:05:33 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/8f3df8a3d5c4442b87659deb0179fa55#8f3df8a3d5c4442b87659deb0179fa55 messerschmitt 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/messerschmitt/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Apple completely re-write OS X from scratch... They didn't make minor changes...

And Operating Systems get exponentially harder to develop, particularly if you have unrealistic backwards compatibility goals.

I think Microsoft should take its lessons from Vista and for their next big release drop all backwards compatibility before Windows XP (e.g. no Win16, MS DOS, POSIX, and OS/2 etc). These old components also offer the biggest security headache... They were written in the dark age of computer security and thus cannot be trusted.

Microsoft might do what Apple did in OS X and for the next major OS release add a virtual machine that will run all the old junk, while removing it from the primary OS its self.

Windows XP has twenty dlls last updated in 1998 and 1999. It also has 1,616 dlls that I've never accessed since I installed virgin XP. On top of that there are 300 executable (exe, com) files that I have never used since installing Windows XP orginal.  

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/48d26543c2564860be1a9deb0179fa7f#48d26543c2564860be1a9deb0179fa7f Sat, 24 Jun 2006 11:59:14 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/48d26543c2564860be1a9deb0179fa7f#48d26543c2564860be1a9deb0179fa7f Manip 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Manip/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Windows x64 doesn't support 16bit crap anymore, this is already a start. It would be still nice if they made things leaner and meaner. For instance modularize the functionality and have the loader use a system wide hashtable that tells it where the files are to be found if they're not available on disk already, so that functional packages can be installed on demand instead of cramming my disks full with (old) crap I never use.

And for that matter, since I've been telling it for some time, create a VM to break backwards compatibility. If not a VM, then put it in a seperate subsystem, hell it works fine for WOW64. VM-wise, since it'll be a Windows specific functionality, you can even design stuff to pass-through calls from the virtualized code to the host system, for instance for window operations (GDI and USER <-> new fangled host code) and all that.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/80bf5849bfe24f40ac779deb0179faa9#80bf5849bfe24f40ac779deb0179faa9 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:13:53 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/80bf5849bfe24f40ac779deb0179faa9#80bf5849bfe24f40ac779deb0179faa9 Tom Servo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Tom Servo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Win64 gets rid of Win16?! ... WOOT! Big Smile

I haven't got Windows XP 64bit edition so I didn't know that. But it is very good news. I plan on going for a 64 bit edition of Windows Vista (assuming it isn't all on one DVD like it is rumoured to be).

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/7d3262d15fc6491297f99deb0179fad1#7d3262d15fc6491297f99deb0179fad1 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:17:09 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/7d3262d15fc6491297f99deb0179fad1#7d3262d15fc6491297f99deb0179fad1 Manip 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Manip/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Yeah, trying to run 16bit applications gets you something like this:

Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

Some 16bit install bootstrappers are being recognized by the WOW64 loader and takes over the job of the bootstrapper.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/48931ef9df4c4d9bbd739deb0179faf9#48931ef9df4c4d9bbd739deb0179faf9 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:42:54 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/48931ef9df4c4d9bbd739deb0179faf9#48931ef9df4c4d9bbd739deb0179faf9 Tom Servo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Tom Servo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
Manip wrote:
Win64 gets rid of Win16?! ... WOOT!

Simple reason too: an x64 procesor cannot run 16 bit code when it's in long mode (native 64 bit).

So the x64 editions of Windows no longer include the NTVDM or WoW32. It does include a new WoW layer though, WoW64, which is used for running 32 bit applications on 64 bit Windows.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/a92b38868bad45a2820c9deb0179fb22#a92b38868bad45a2820c9deb0179fb22 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:45:06 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/a92b38868bad45a2820c9deb0179fb22#a92b38868bad45a2820c9deb0179fb22 Sven Groot 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Sven Groot/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
Tom Servo wrote:
Yeah, trying to run 16bit applications gets you something like this:

Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us




Is edit.com still included in XP-64? Pretty funny ...

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/6aa42a75fd0041ae8d549deb0179fb4a#6aa42a75fd0041ae8d549deb0179fb4a Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:18:30 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/6aa42a75fd0041ae8d549deb0179fb4a#6aa42a75fd0041ae8d549deb0179fb4a Cairo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Cairo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product No, it's from my stale 32bit Windows install that I really need to delete some time.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/502eb787c39d4bf284189deb0179fb72#502eb787c39d4bf284189deb0179fb72 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:36:38 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/502eb787c39d4bf284189deb0179fb72#502eb787c39d4bf284189deb0179fb72 Tom Servo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Tom Servo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
Manip wrote:


Apple completely re-write OS X from scratch... They didn't make minor changes...



If you gonna try to correct someone please get the facts before you write, Apple didnt "completely re-write OS X from scratch", they tried that in the 90's and failed (Rhapsody),  then they bought Jobs old project  NeXT, took  a good chunk of open-source  code and  glued it with a nice GUI on top of it and called it MacOS X, thats common knowledge -except for you apparently.

Apart from that you failed to comprehend what i wrote, instead of re-inventing the wheel as Microsoft originally tried with Vista, they should do as Apples does, releasing minor OS-upgrades each year or so but still giving users something new, would they have done that we would have been using  the 6th sequel from XP by now.

 

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/40cfbe92ee5c48bc962b9deb0179fb9d#40cfbe92ee5c48bc962b9deb0179fb9d Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:56:51 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/40cfbe92ee5c48bc962b9deb0179fb9d#40cfbe92ee5c48bc962b9deb0179fb9d messerschmitt 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/messerschmitt/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
messerschmitt wrote:

Manip wrote: 

Apple completely re-write OS X from scratch... They didn't make minor changes...



If you gonna try to correct someone please get the facts before you write, Apple didnt "completely re-write OS X from scratch", they tried that in the 90's and failed (Rhapsody),  then they bought Jobs old project  NeXT, took  a good chunk of open-source  code and  glued it with a nice GUI on top of it and called it MacOS X, thats common knowledge -except for you apparently.


Which means that OS X is a complete rewrite from OS 9... As per what I already said.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/4b1d6088e0c64ecb91059deb0179fbc6#4b1d6088e0c64ecb91059deb0179fbc6 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:57:42 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/4b1d6088e0c64ecb91059deb0179fbc6#4b1d6088e0c64ecb91059deb0179fbc6 Manip 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Manip/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
Manip wrote:
Which means that OS X is a complete rewrite from OS 9... As per what I already said.


F'cking moron, go away if your only mission here is to play stupid and troll.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/2e916afcf27b493996b69deb0179fbef#2e916afcf27b493996b69deb0179fbef Sat, 24 Jun 2006 14:42:54 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/2e916afcf27b493996b69deb0179fbef#2e916afcf27b493996b69deb0179fbef messerschmitt 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/messerschmitt/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
messerschmitt wrote:

Manip wrote: Which means that OS X is a complete rewrite from OS 9... As per what I already said.


F'cking moron, go away if your only mission here is to play stupid and troll.



Wow, childish name calling... Good one... 8-)

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/e39f088f52f6464fa4349deb0179fc17#e39f088f52f6464fa4349deb0179fc17 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:19:25 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/e39f088f52f6464fa4349deb0179fc17#e39f088f52f6464fa4349deb0179fc17 Manip 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Manip/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Pity poor little manlip, he has no friends and no life outside of C9, where he spends way too much time......without ever adding value.




WinFS never was a Product, it’s a technology and beta 1 is available for ISV’s to build Products and they will.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/fd74114c007a40f58d829deb0179fc3f#fd74114c007a40f58d829deb0179fc3f Sat, 24 Jun 2006 18:58:49 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/fd74114c007a40f58d829deb0179fc3f#fd74114c007a40f58d829deb0179fc3f eagle 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/eagle/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product This seems like the right approach to me.  For one thing, the amazing work being done by msresearch (C-omega) and the CLR folks with LINQ are much more compelling for the development community than the object/relational file system story they've been working on for the last decade.

It's much more important (right now) that the work on database entities aligns with LINQ than with Windows search/indexing strategies.  Both are goodness, but LINQ presents developers with new capabilities as well as a paradigm shift that the rest of the industry will have to embrace to remain relevant - it's that big!

Also, there is a basic tension between pushing linking and content-type information down into the file system, and supporting the Web, which already has the linking and content-type awareness that an object file system is supposed to bring to the local system.

Finally, the reason that it's so much easier to search the Web than your desktop computer is that there are banks of powerful servers fully dedicated to scanning and indexing the Web.  Collaboration server and related technologies are a better way to bring Web style linking and content-type awareness to the intranet, workgroup and finally to the desktop.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/8559ed432ead4e2a88da9deb0179fc6a#8559ed432ead4e2a88da9deb0179fc6a Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:05:56 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/8559ed432ead4e2a88da9deb0179fc6a#8559ed432ead4e2a88da9deb0179fc6a davidofmorris 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/davidofmorris/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product WinFS is Sweet

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/04102f367e054018aea89deb0179fc92#04102f367e054018aea89deb0179fc92 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:07:37 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/04102f367e054018aea89deb0179fc92#04102f367e054018aea89deb0179fc92 eagle 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/eagle/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product So each ISV will have to bundle and install "WinFS" separately on people's computers?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/23c47931ca254bef98769deb0179fcbc#23c47931ca254bef98769deb0179fcbc Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:57:54 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/23c47931ca254bef98769deb0179fcbc#23c47931ca254bef98769deb0179fcbc Cairo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Cairo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
Cairo wrote:
So each ISV will have to bundle and install "WinFS" separately on people's computers?



What install? There is no install any more.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/010f1eb974e8403b89c79deb0179fce4#010f1eb974e8403b89c79deb0179fce4 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:00:18 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/010f1eb974e8403b89c79deb0179fce4#010f1eb974e8403b89c79deb0179fce4 blowdart 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/blowdart/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
blowdart wrote:

Cairo wrote:So each ISV will have to bundle and install "WinFS" separately on people's computers?


What install? There is no install any more.


Are you referring to this?

"With most of our effort now working towards productizing mature aspects of the WinFS project into SQL and ADO.NET, we do not need to deliver a separate WinFS offering. "

I'm having trouble reconciling that with Eagle's cheerleading...

Is WinFS "MDAC 3.0"?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/d08d763bf0d5456ea1d19deb0179fd0e#d08d763bf0d5456ea1d19deb0179fd0e Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:03:59 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/d08d763bf0d5456ea1d19deb0179fd0e#d08d763bf0d5456ea1d19deb0179fd0e Cairo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Cairo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Whenever I see people complaining about how long Vista has taken, I can't help thinking back to when XP was released when everybody was complaining about how MS kept releaseing new operating systems every two or three years 'forcing' everyone to upgrade, and how they wished they'd slow down the release schedule a bit, maybe one new release every five or six years or so...  (and how long has it between between XP and Vista?)

People are going to complain no matter what MS do, so I say they should just do whatever the **** they want.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/6c77b518c7d64237a4159deb0179fd36#6c77b518c7d64237a4159deb0179fd36 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:21:40 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/6c77b518c7d64237a4159deb0179fd36#6c77b518c7d64237a4159deb0179fd36 cain 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/cain/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
messerschmitt wrote:

Manip wrote: 

Apple completely re-write OS X from scratch... They didn't make minor changes...



...

Apart from that you failed to comprehend what i wrote, instead of re-inventing the wheel as Microsoft originally tried with Vista, they should do as Apples does, releasing minor OS-upgrades each year or so but still giving users something new, would they have done that we would have been using  the 6th sequel from XP by now.


That is what they did.  Vista is built on 2000 SR1 OS.  They have added/changed on that and the WPF/WCF stuff can run on Vista or XP.  So it was not the whole OS wheel.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/4d8502077e0c43089a3d9deb0179fd61#4d8502077e0c43089a3d9deb0179fd61 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:23:17 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/4d8502077e0c43089a3d9deb0179fd61#4d8502077e0c43089a3d9deb0179fd61 William Stacey 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/staceyw/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
staceyw wrote:
Vista is built on 2000 SR1 OS.


No, Vista ist built on the Windows Server 2003 code base. That was the main reason for the delay, they switched from the XP code base to the Windows Server 2003 code base.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/dd1648bf94024d3fa4a49deb0179fd89#dd1648bf94024d3fa4a49deb0179fd89 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:39:38 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/dd1648bf94024d3fa4a49deb0179fd89#dd1648bf94024d3fa4a49deb0179fd89 Martin Ennemoser 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/mawcc/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Worse, they started on Win2k3, then went WinXP SP2 for some dumbass reason and when SP1 hit Win2k3, they went back.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/e78a330a39eb49a383f59deb0179fdb0#e78a330a39eb49a383f59deb0179fdb0 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 21:12:46 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/e78a330a39eb49a383f59deb0179fdb0#e78a330a39eb49a383f59deb0179fdb0 Tom Servo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Tom Servo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product WinFS exists in beta, but yea it’s evolving.

It never was a desktop search product; it’s a way of organizing your stuff.

ISV’s have been working with WinFS for about a year now and they have created applications that will organize your CD collection and your Moms recipes.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/593c549a697440a1960a9deb0179fdd9#593c549a697440a1960a9deb0179fdd9 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 21:36:43 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/593c549a697440a1960a9deb0179fdd9#593c549a697440a1960a9deb0179fdd9 eagle 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/eagle/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
eagle wrote:
ISV’s have been working with WinFS for about a year now and they have created applications that will organize your CD collection and your Moms recipes.


Wow -- it's that scalable?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/a2b5909714d040e8843a9deb0179fe01#a2b5909714d040e8843a9deb0179fe01 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 21:41:19 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/a2b5909714d040e8843a9deb0179fe01#a2b5909714d040e8843a9deb0179fe01 Cairo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Cairo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product How many CD's do you have?

Roger Lueder's TechEd  talk: Building on WinFS: Developing a Great WinFS App from Scratch.

He had a cool app for a Wine Collection:

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/b9eb75eee1bf4070b0269deb0179fe29#b9eb75eee1bf4070b0269deb0179fe29 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:54:38 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/b9eb75eee1bf4070b0269deb0179fe29#b9eb75eee1bf4070b0269deb0179fe29 eagle 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/eagle/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Is WinFS, in its current incarnation, like "Core Data"?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/e1f5a60e83d842b695fb9deb0179fe51#e1f5a60e83d842b695fb9deb0179fe51 Sat, 24 Jun 2006 23:09:37 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/e1f5a60e83d842b695fb9deb0179fe51#e1f5a60e83d842b695fb9deb0179fe51 Cairo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Cairo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
mawcc wrote:

staceyw wrote: Vista is built on 2000 SR1 OS.


No, Vista ist built on the Windows Server 2003 code base. That was the main reason for the delay, they switched from the XP code base to the Windows Server 2003 code base.


oops.  I meant 2003 SR1.  Note that is SR1, not SP1.  Many updates to the core went into SR1.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/3551cd10a8404896b54c9deb0179fe7a#3551cd10a8404896b54c9deb0179fe7a Sat, 24 Jun 2006 23:13:26 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/3551cd10a8404896b54c9deb0179fe7a#3551cd10a8404896b54c9deb0179fe7a William Stacey 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/staceyw/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
eagle wrote:
How many CD's do you have?


About 260 or so...

eagle wrote:


Roger Lueder's TechEd  talk: Building on WinFS: Developing a Great WinFS App from Scratch.

He had a cool app for a Wine Collection:



I haven't seen that video yet, but why would you need WinFS for that? Seems like a fairly average database app, certainly nothing requiring a mothballed multi-million-dollar project to run off.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/f6d9ca65d0b549f5ba579deb0179fea4#f6d9ca65d0b549f5ba579deb0179fea4 Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:16:29 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/f6d9ca65d0b549f5ba579deb0179fea4#f6d9ca65d0b549f5ba579deb0179fea4 W3bbo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/W3bbo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
Cairo wrote:
Is WinFS, in its current incarnation, like "Core Data"?
While 'm not certain what you're referring to when you say "current incarnation", I can perhaps provide a partial answer. To put it simply: sorta.

Part of what Core Data is trying to solve is eliminating the need to write tedious object persistance code; that's something we have now in .Net via the CLR serialization services. The entity and relationship modeling sounds very similar to what Microsoft's proposing with their Entity Framework, though Apple doesn't seem to have the rich query functionality exposed through LINQ.

A lot of the big differences, I think, are in the services that are layed on top of these models. Core Data has basic change management (undo/redo), but WinFS had that and more. Particularly, WinFS provided a synchronization engine which could connect with other clients, web services or server-based databases (such as SQL Server)--Core Data seems focused entirely on the client from what I can tell. Also, there was an interesting concept called an InfoAgent, which would basically montior the store for particular conditions, and then do some action in response (e.g., "If I get an email from my doctor, alert me immediately even if I'm busy."). It was neat stuff, but I'm not sure what's to become of it.

WinFS was much more ambitious than Core Data--no doubt a consequence of Microsoft's desire to unify the functionality between client and server. Still, Core Data is actually here today, so I'm in no position to fault Apple's evolutionary approach.

HTH (at least somewhat).

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/9e96c807e7294e4483d59deb0179fed1#9e96c807e7294e4483d59deb0179fed1 Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:39:06 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/9e96c807e7294e4483d59deb0179fed1#9e96c807e7294e4483d59deb0179fed1 BryanF 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/BryanF/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
BryanF wrote:


HTH (at least somewhat).


It does, thanks. The asynchronous aspects of it sound interesting. And one of Core Data's primary limitations at the moment is that it can't talk to a server-baesd database system. It's a but like a cut down and then extended version of "EOF" (Enterprise Objects Framework) from WebObjects. Perhaps CoreData 2 will add some more enterprise-type features.



]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/81b2d67ba8674c898af89deb0179fefa#81b2d67ba8674c898af89deb0179fefa Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:42:39 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/81b2d67ba8674c898af89deb0179fefa#81b2d67ba8674c898af89deb0179fefa Cairo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Cairo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product i too was very much interested in WinFS. it is really sad when the project you work on is scrapped ,but another truth that i realised today is not all projects reach their target (being a student, all projects were succesful ).

hope all the work u guys put in would be useful in other forms atleast .

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/f76f18f476fa4d55807d9deb0179ff4b#f76f18f476fa4d55807d9deb0179ff4b Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:11:25 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/f76f18f476fa4d55807d9deb0179ff4b#f76f18f476fa4d55807d9deb0179ff4b Shiv 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Shiv/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
eagle wrote:
WinFS never was a Product, it’s a technology and beta 1 is available for ISV’s to build Products and they will.


Well beta 1 has no go-live license that I'm aware of, and there won't be a beta 2 or a release, so unless those ISVs only used WinFS for entites/ORM and/or "unstructured data" (whatever that includes), then they can't build squat.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/101ebf4573344959ab6c9deb0179ff22#101ebf4573344959ab6c9deb0179ff22 Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:27 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/101ebf4573344959ab6c9deb0179ff22#101ebf4573344959ab6c9deb0179ff22 DCMonkey 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/DCMonkey/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product The WinFS Team is intact and as enthusiastic as every about this cool technology, it’s just not going to be part of Windows Vista next year

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/340b461398db4f60982f9deb0179ff73#340b461398db4f60982f9deb0179ff73 Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:36:10 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/340b461398db4f60982f9deb0179ff73#340b461398db4f60982f9deb0179ff73 eagle 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/eagle/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
Shiv wrote:

hope all the work u guys put in would be useful in other forms atleast .

http://blogs.msdn.com/winfs/

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/92aacd87e8ef463181609deb0179ff9b#92aacd87e8ef463181609deb0179ff9b Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:55:25 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/92aacd87e8ef463181609deb0179ff9b#92aacd87e8ef463181609deb0179ff9b davidofmorris 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/davidofmorris/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
eagle wrote:
The WinFS Team is intact and as enthusiastic as every about this cool technology, it’s just not going to be part of Windows Vista next year


Your kool-aid must be stronger than mine, but I see no reason to be “enthusiastic”.

Let’s look at upcoming releases from Microsoft.  Vista is currently scheduled to RTM out October/November 2006. Assuming that holds, we’ll be at .Net 3.0, which included .Net 2.0 and the former WinFX APIs (WPF, WCF, WWF). “Orcas”, the next Visual Studio, isn’t expected to ship till the 2ND half of 2007. “Orcas” is also the version of Visual Studio that will support the LINQ technologies as well as the Entities framework being picked from the bones of WinFS, now to be known collectively as ADO.Net 3.0. The self-tuning bits of WinFS would then be rolled into “Katmai”, the next version of SQL Server. This is expected to ship 2007/2008. Judging from Microsoft’s Integrated Innovation kick and the delays SQL Server 2005 (“Yukon”) inflicted on Visual Studio 2005, and the fact that a new Visual Studio always seems to ship after I renew my MSDN subscription, I would guess that both Orcas, and Katmai will ship very late in 2007 at the earliest.

This, my friend, is over a year and a half away from now. Microsoft currently has no credibility in predicting release dates out that far.  Any other technologies “incubating” in the WinFS project that weren’t mature enough to make “Orcas” and/or “Katmai” by then might as well be dead chicken.

WinFS is dead chicken.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/fd20e8c5037b445d82d19deb0179ffc8#fd20e8c5037b445d82d19deb0179ffc8 Sun, 25 Jun 2006 03:06:30 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/fd20e8c5037b445d82d19deb0179ffc8#fd20e8c5037b445d82d19deb0179ffc8 DCMonkey 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/DCMonkey/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Discussions around this topic:

http://www.longhornblogs.com/robert/archive/2006/06/23/16365.aspx.
http://www.hunterstrat.com/news/2006/06/24/say-goodbye-to-winfs/
http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/PermaLink.aspx?guid=43532b55-f8f8-4b72-a532-c7343b4e1b9e

Microsoft from now on should not showcase or declare any feature, platform or technology that they are not sure will make the cut. They have lost almost all credibility in my books with this news. I just realize I wasted a year on working and learning a dead technology.... thank you MS!




]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/f750a820b12e40cdb21c9deb0179fff1#f750a820b12e40cdb21c9deb0179fff1 Sun, 25 Jun 2006 03:40:34 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/f750a820b12e40cdb21c9deb0179fff1#f750a820b12e40cdb21c9deb0179fff1 NuTcAsE 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/NuTcAsE/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product This is the saddest news I've heard from MS lately. This will be even worse for my friend to hear because he is a big DB guy. I was so looking forward to that UX that allowed me to surf my sea of data in such a natural way...oh well...still a dream.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/3fbb572d0f484cfe96fd9deb017a0033#3fbb572d0f484cfe96fd9deb017a0033 Sun, 25 Jun 2006 06:49:46 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/3fbb572d0f484cfe96fd9deb017a0033#3fbb572d0f484cfe96fd9deb017a0033 LightRider 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/LightRider/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product I don't care if WinFS died or if WinFS was never the super duper NTFS replacement that we all thought it was to begin with.

The fact of the matter is that people feel betrayed, and Microsoft just lost a lot of credibility, even amongst die-hard fans like myself.

Seriously, I've never lost trust in Microsoft so much as now. This is ridiculous.


WPF and Indigo are the only standing pillars (features, rather) of Longhorn. Indigo is invisible to end users. WPF is obviously a lot more than the "eye candy bullsh-t" that people say it is (because they, users and devs alike, don't understand the subtle implications of a real, practical, successful implementation of a truly document/controller-view separated API), but if people are stupid enough to believe that that's all Vista is, then Windows no longer has any foundation.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/6b7a6fdbf66a42aa97669deb017a00b5#6b7a6fdbf66a42aa97669deb017a00b5 Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:29:52 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/6b7a6fdbf66a42aa97669deb017a00b5#6b7a6fdbf66a42aa97669deb017a00b5 reinux 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/reinux/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product I still say the glass is half full and can't understand why all of you say it is half empty.

We learned long ago that WinFS would not be part of Windows Vista. After TechEd I thought it was just 6 months behind Vista, so now it's going to be another 6 months.

I can find all of my data because of a trick I learned back in the days of DOS, create Directories.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/b63786abf2284541b3da9deb017a00dd#b63786abf2284541b3da9deb017a00dd Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:55:20 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/b63786abf2284541b3da9deb017a00dd#b63786abf2284541b3da9deb017a00dd eagle 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/eagle/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
eagle wrote:


I still say the glass is half full and can't understand why all of you say it is half empty.



It's not a matter of the glass being half-full or half-empty. It's whether the glass exists at this point.

Microsoft should get better at either

a) not announcing vaporware
or
b) completing announced projects


]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/20b233d1db4c427597dd9deb017a0106#20b233d1db4c427597dd9deb017a0106 Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:50:56 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/20b233d1db4c427597dd9deb017a0106#20b233d1db4c427597dd9deb017a0106 Cairo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Cairo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
eagle wrote:


I still say the glass is half full and can't understand why all of you say it is half empty.

We learned long ago that WinFS would not be part of Windows Vista. After TechEd I thought it was just 6 months behind Vista, so now it's going to be another 6 months.

I can find all of my data because of a trick I learned back in the days of DOS, create Directories.



In what fevered imagination of an alternate reality do you think WinFS is going to ship 1 year after Vista?

The parts being pulled out to roll into Orcas and Katmai might make it out by then, but anything else being incubated in Project "Orange" is probably 2 years out past that. IOW, too long to care about right now.

WinFS is dead Orange Chicken

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/29b5df19ed6e49afb61a9deb017a0131#29b5df19ed6e49afb61a9deb017a0131 Mon, 26 Jun 2006 01:06:58 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/29b5df19ed6e49afb61a9deb017a0131#29b5df19ed6e49afb61a9deb017a0131 DCMonkey 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/DCMonkey/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Shipping this product just doesn't make sense for microsoft right now.  Where's the pressure in this market space?  Microsoft can let someone else prove that the market exists.  Remember the internet.  There's a good chance that shipping WinFS now would provide very little lift to the general acceptance of Windows for users or developers.  But a few developers would embrace it, putting pressure on microsoft to keep supporting it.  The response from the larger market would probably be to propose a set of competing technologies that microsoft would then have to adapt to, while still maintaining compatibility with WinFS 1.x for internal and external applications that embraced it.

Nevertheless, it may make perfect sense for microsoft to keep teasing the market.  There is clearly this idea that some Web-like capability could be placed between apps and storage - some document based but still relational something for everyone that would allow general purpose applications to browse your computer and intranet.  Microsoft clearly want to master this space once it shows itself, but as I said before, LINQ is much more strategic at this point, and database-entities need to align with it so that LINQ + SQL Server applications can capture maximum market share, in what is a real and growing market that microsoft already have a huge stake in.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/0545ed912c434af28a849deb017a015c#0545ed912c434af28a849deb017a015c Mon, 26 Jun 2006 01:26:57 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/0545ed912c434af28a849deb017a015c#0545ed912c434af28a849deb017a015c davidofmorris 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/davidofmorris/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
davidofmorris wrote:
Shipping this product just doesn't make sense for microsoft right now.  Where's the pressure in this market space?  Microsoft can let someone else prove that the market exists.  Remember the internet.  There's a good chance that shipping WinFS now would provide very little lift to the general acceptance of Windows for users or developers.  But a few developers would embrace it, putting pressure on microsoft to keep supporting it. 

Nevertheless, it may make perfect sense for microsoft to keep teasing the market. 


That's just crying sour grapes. Microsoft is doing this "teasing" that you talk about at the expense of their own credibility. Microsoft isn't Google. Those tricks don't work.

You make parallels with the web, but is this a web service that we're talking about? No, it's a client product. There's no point in waiting for others.

The problem isn't about general acceptance of Windows. It's about general acceptance of Microsoft.


eagle wrote:
 I still say the glass is half full and can't understand why all of you say it is half empty.

We learned long ago that WinFS would not be part of Windows Vista. After TechEd I thought it was just 6 months behind Vista, so now it's going to be another 6 months.


At first the glass was full. Then we were told the glass is half full -- it won't make it in Vista. Nonetheless, it was still half full, so we were happy. Now we're being told that the glass is empty.

Did you actually read the WinFS blog entry? It doesn't say WinFS isn't making it into Vista; it says WinFS isn't making it at all.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/93477a1902414bc9b2a39deb017a0188#93477a1902414bc9b2a39deb017a0188 Mon, 26 Jun 2006 02:19:01 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/93477a1902414bc9b2a39deb017a0188#93477a1902414bc9b2a39deb017a0188 reinux 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/reinux/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
reinux wrote:

The problem isn't about general acceptance of Windows. It's about general acceptance of Microsoft.

Oh my -  I had no idea the stakes were so high!  I stand corrected.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/d56f3fac0aa84544a4bf9deb017a01af#d56f3fac0aa84544a4bf9deb017a01af Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:21:51 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/d56f3fac0aa84544a4bf9deb017a01af#d56f3fac0aa84544a4bf9deb017a01af davidofmorris 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/davidofmorris/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
blatzcoder wrote:
Perhaps Microsoft should go after a bunch of Oracle devs to see how a large scale database is supposed to be built and then have them implement it.



That's not the problem. SQL Server is a very good (large scale) database. The problem with WinFS is how to effectively implement a store for semi-structured data (i.e. to store something that's between an opaque stream of bytes and a relational model in 3rd normal form).

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/1061a6d747264b43834c9deb017a01d9#1061a6d747264b43834c9deb017a01d9 Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:32:56 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/1061a6d747264b43834c9deb017a01d9#1061a6d747264b43834c9deb017a01d9 Martin Ennemoser 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/mawcc/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product WinFS Update

From the WinFS Team blog: Update to the Update.

Is WinFS dead?
Yes and No. Yes, we are not going to ship WinFS as a separate, monolithic software component. But the answer is also No - the vision remains alive and we are moving the technology forward. A lot of the technology really was database stuff – and we’re putting that into SQL and ADO. But some of the technology, especially the end user value points, are not ready, and we’re going to continue to work on that

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/f74c61c31f374c9383169deb017a0203#f74c61c31f374c9383169deb017a0203 Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:36:48 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/f74c61c31f374c9383169deb017a0203#f74c61c31f374c9383169deb017a0203 eagle 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/eagle/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product That's still as much of a yes as it was yesterday.

The fact that WinFS will not be available as a file system for Vista ruins it completely.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/4eb396980c164f61bf069deb017a022a#4eb396980c164f61bf069deb017a022a Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:49:59 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/4eb396980c164f61bf069deb017a022a#4eb396980c164f61bf069deb017a022a reinux 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/reinux/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Not a surprise. Everyone knew WinFS was vaporware anyway.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/47d7c9881c2c4ff0a2c59deb017a0251#47d7c9881c2c4ff0a2c59deb017a0251 Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:01:11 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/47d7c9881c2c4ff0a2c59deb017a0251#47d7c9881c2c4ff0a2c59deb017a0251 Detroit Muscle 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Detroit Muscle/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Having a superficial understanding of what WinFs was going to be.. and to me that meant some meta-data layer on top of NTFS, i have to wonder what all the fuss is about that it’s being dropped or whatnot.

I mean how many people fill out the Metadata options we have now for all the files we can make. I have never once entered document information for Office docs. I simply dont have time. Nor am I going to OCDesquely meta-label every media file I have.

So being the lazy content-creator that I am, what am I missing by WinFs not coming to life?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/1d986448645b4cbe95b09deb017a027b#1d986448645b4cbe95b09deb017a027b Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:26:39 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/1d986448645b4cbe95b09deb017a027b#1d986448645b4cbe95b09deb017a027b pacelvi 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/pacelvi/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
pacelvi wrote:
Having a superficial understanding of what WinFs was going to be.. and to me that meant some meta-data layer on top of NTFS, i have to wonder what all the fuss is about that it’s being dropped or whatnot.

I mean how many people fill out the Metadata options we have now for all the files we can make. I have never once entered document information for Office docs. I simply dont have time. Nor am I going to OCDesquely meta-label every media file I have.

So being the lazy content-creator that I am, what am I missing by WinFs not coming to life?



I filled it out. Or more precisely started to, but the "tools" are far from being easy and user-friendly. I was even considering writing an easier meta-data editor/organizer before WinFS, but I decided to wait for WinFS. Then it was dropped from Vista and we saw the disappearance of virtual folders.

What was cool about WinFS is that data becomes meaningful and you can have relationships between separate chunks of data. That's when you don't have to "meta-label" every file, but associate other data to them. For example associate a contact to a picture as in picture of X.Y. What's exciting about this is that looking at the picture you (and maybe the computer too) can immediately get the information about people in the photo. WinFS is not good because it adds meta-data (file, properties, summary). It's not good because it can search by meta-data (desktop search). The trick is (or rather was) in the  relations.

And yes. WinFS is dead now, but I'm sure another OS will have it in 2 years. And Microsoft can play catch-up again like with mapping solutions (longhorn+keyhole demo springs to mind). Great Perplexed

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/a232bf7e1685415893979deb017a02a7#a232bf7e1685415893979deb017a02a7 Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:35:51 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/a232bf7e1685415893979deb017a02a7#a232bf7e1685415893979deb017a02a7 Zaki 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Zaki/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
Zaki wrote:

... I'm sure another OS will have it in 2 years. And Microsoft can play catch-up again ...

It would be GREAT if someone else were to gain some traction in this space.  It would be particularly wonderful if an OFS layer gained acceptance in Linux or OS-X!  Microsoft are very good at catch-up and me-too.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/51a2c577063446efa1f39deb017a02cf#51a2c577063446efa1f39deb017a02cf Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:49:27 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/51a2c577063446efa1f39deb017a02cf#51a2c577063446efa1f39deb017a02cf davidofmorris 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/davidofmorris/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product You can't play catch up on something you're already developing before anyone else. And even if the alternative OSes get an OFS layer, doesn't mean much. Gnome Storage was the closest thing to WinFS and it held only up to it in demostrations in a controlled setting, otherwise it was a trainwreck. So much for that.

And for the n-th time, WinFS is/was more than a metadata store.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/b7188666069940a58d789deb017a02f7#b7188666069940a58d789deb017a02f7 Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:20:06 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/b7188666069940a58d789deb017a02f7#b7188666069940a58d789deb017a02f7 Tom Servo 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Tom Servo/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
davidofmorris wrote:

Zaki wrote:
... I'm sure another OS will have it in 2 years. And Microsoft can play catch-up again ...

It would be GREAT if someone else were to gain some traction in this space.  It would be particularly wonderful if an OFS layer gained acceptance in Linux or OS-X!  Microsoft are very good at catch-up and me-too.


I think Apple could do something similar to the WinFS "vision". They've got some of the building blocks in Spotlight, CoreData and Sync Services.

I doubt Linux has a chance. Judging from the extreme ignorance in the Linux community of what WinFS was promising, they wouldn't even know where to start.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/0826950c7c97459cbcc69deb017a0322#0826950c7c97459cbcc69deb017a0322 Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:52:42 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/0826950c7c97459cbcc69deb017a0322#0826950c7c97459cbcc69deb017a0322 DCMonkey 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/DCMonkey/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
DCMonkey wrote:

davidofmorris wrote: 
Zaki wrote:
... I'm sure another OS will have it in 2 years. And Microsoft can play catch-up again ...

It would be GREAT if someone else were to gain some traction in this space.  It would be particularly wonderful if an OFS layer gained acceptance in Linux or OS-X!  Microsoft are very good at catch-up and me-too.


I think Apple could do something similar to the WinFS "vision". They've got some of the building blocks in Spotlight, CoreData and Sync Services.

I doubt Linux has a chance. Judging from the extreme ignorance in the Linux community of what WinFS was promising, they wouldn't even know where to start.
What makes you say that?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/b276463c8dcc46ac9f329deb017a034c#b276463c8dcc46ac9f329deb017a034c Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:01:24 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/b276463c8dcc46ac9f329deb017a034c#b276463c8dcc46ac9f329deb017a034c fdisk 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/fdisk/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
fdisk wrote:

DCMonkey wrote: 
I doubt Linux has a chance. Judging from the extreme ignorance in the Linux community of what WinFS was promising, they wouldn't even know where to start.
What makes you say that?


Because other than the long dead GNOME Storage project, and Novell's Simias (has that gone anywhere?), everyone in the Linux community seems to think that ReiserFS or ZFS does everything WinFS would have done and more. Those that don't seem to think:

1) Spotlight did it first
2) ???*
3) Linux is better than Windows

* You could probably throw in Beagle here somewhere.

There are a few other projects out there with interesting ideas on search and organiziation beyond basic metadata indexing, but nothing quite like what WinFS could have been. And IMHO there's too much graybeardedness running through Linux for anything so radical to come between the file system and the UI in a mainstream Linux desktop.

But it would be nice if they could prove me wrong.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/6f54f6bb249046b594469deb017a0378#6f54f6bb249046b594469deb017a0378 Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:09:36 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/6f54f6bb249046b594469deb017a0378#6f54f6bb249046b594469deb017a0378 DCMonkey 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/DCMonkey/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
DCMonkey wrote:

And IMHO there's too much graybeardedness running through Linux for anything so radical to come between the file system and the UI in a mainstream Linux desktop.

Normally I'd agree, but right now I'm worried that Microsoft's suffering the same problem too. I was pretty shocked to find out even Scoble has no real idea why WinFS was ditched.

The only real reason those blog entries give for killing WinFS s that there aren't enough end user value points, i.e., we aren't ready for it.

But that's a stupid excuse coming from Microsoft. If they can be the driving force to convert every Average Joe to a Joe User, surely they can be the driving force to move the world forward from a hierarchial file system to a relational one, even if it'd be gradual.

Gotta start somewhere no?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/dc1dab4699a44695a5019deb017a03a1#dc1dab4699a44695a5019deb017a03a1 Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:12:55 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/dc1dab4699a44695a5019deb017a03a1#dc1dab4699a44695a5019deb017a03a1 reinux 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/reinux/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
DCMonkey wrote:
Those that don't seem to think:
1) Spotlight did it first


It isn't that Spotlight did filesystem queries first (I thought it was BeOS*), but rather that they delivered at all without all the hype and leading developers down dead-end alleys.  Whoever it was that said that Microsoft should not say anything until it is certain that they can deliver hit the nail straight on the head.  Why do Apple fans get so excited about Apple stuff? Because they constantly surprise us by delivering cool things that haven't been hyped to death before hand ...


 * Interesting note, the author of BeFS (Dominic Giampaolo) now works for Apple. On the spotlight team. I wonder how many Be Engineers actually ended up at Microsoft. Anyone know?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/379fb627f2ea4d54b37c9deb017a03cb#379fb627f2ea4d54b37c9deb017a03cb Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:51:36 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/379fb627f2ea4d54b37c9deb017a03cb#379fb627f2ea4d54b37c9deb017a03cb Rossj 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Rossj/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product The point I was kinda trying to make was :
1) Spotlight did it first (and Apple knows how to design software because they had a HIG 13 years ago, therefore anything MS might be working on (like WinFS) could only be a poor copy of it and couldn't possibly offer anything additional that might be worth investigating and implementing for Linux)

and

2) ???* (Beagle works like Spotlight and therefore is as good as Spotlight)

therefore

3) Linux is better than Windows (Beagle is better that WinFS).

And so no-one would bother to build a WinFS clone.

And yes, having Dominic onboard ( I think I mentioned him earlier in this thread), is one of the reasons I think Apple has a better chance of doing something approaching WinFS.

If they do, then maybe the Linux camp will have a better roadmap to follow (once they get past the ReiserFS vs SQL database, MySQL vs PostgreSQL vs pluggable back end, C vs C++ vs Mono vs Java, DIY schema vs Dublin Core/sematic web flame wars.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/ca4c09ea16b44855bea49deb017a03f6#ca4c09ea16b44855bea49deb017a03f6 Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:14:10 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/ca4c09ea16b44855bea49deb017a03f6#ca4c09ea16b44855bea49deb017a03f6 DCMonkey 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/DCMonkey/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
DCMonkey wrote:
If they do, then maybe the Linux camp will have a better roadmap to follow


They do like to follow ... come on Microsoft, how bout BeFS on Windows? It isn't perfect but it is closer than where we are now.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/84d182548c2e429884959deb017a041e#84d182548c2e429884959deb017a041e Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:44:22 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/84d182548c2e429884959deb017a041e#84d182548c2e429884959deb017a041e Rossj 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Rossj/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product
Rossj wrote:

DCMonkey wrote: If they do, then maybe the Linux camp will have a better roadmap to follow


They do like to follow ... come on Microsoft, how bout BeFS on Windows? It isn't perfect but it is closer than where we are now.


Given what is in Vista right now, the main thing I can think of from BeFS that I would like to see in Vista search is the ability to add one's own metadata to files that don't already have that metadata. Right now, you can only search on whatever metadata fields a file format already contains and that the IPropertyStore written for that file format by MS or a 3rd party decides to read/write. This means, for example, that you can't put your own metadata like "project name" with a value of  "FooPro 2.0" on a plain text source file in Vista.

Now if someone were adventurous, maybe one could write a stable of property handlers that could slip extra metadata into the system but store it in some database, but it would be nice to have it built in.

The upside of Vista's current implementation (and Spotlight's for that matter), is that you wouldn't have to worry about your metadata becoming separated from your files when you copy them to other systems, as you can always rebuild your indexes from the files. IIRC, with BeFS, you or your apps had to do any synchronizing of internal file metadata and file system metadata themselves instead of the system doing it for you by calling plugged-in handlers.

So while MS could certainly learn from BeFS, I don't see them switching to it as having any real advantage.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/9fa8e7e2ed6e4b4289a89deb017a044d#9fa8e7e2ed6e4b4289a89deb017a044d Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:25:37 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/9fa8e7e2ed6e4b4289a89deb017a044d#9fa8e7e2ed6e4b4289a89deb017a044d DCMonkey 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/DCMonkey/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - WinFS no longer a product Some Microsoft ex-employee:

http://gdayworld.thepodcastnetwork.com/index.php?p=236


Interesting bit of history though, I was actually in Building 25 of the Exchange team, when Bill officially told Brian Valentine (he was running the exchange team at the time), that it was going to be this combined filesystem, he had a [inaudible] for about the third time while I was at Microsoft. 'cuz up until that point, the Exchange store was the file service du jour for unstructured ad-hoc data.

Very interesting problems, having trying to design a database that can handle structured high-transaction integrity data like a database, and to do the unstructred soup like a message store. It's still too frackin' hard; no one's figured out how to do it. And here we are, that's what really killed it boys and girls, it wasn't the Web, it was [inaudible], it was too bloody hard.


I'm curious about this though... Beta 2 was coming up and Beta 1 was already at least somewhat feature complete from what I know; correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe practical feasibility was the problem, but I don't know if it's really technical feasibility like this guy says.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/e7dfc212f9c84df18e279deb017a0478#e7dfc212f9c84df18e279deb017a0478 Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:28:35 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/203237-WinFS-no-longer-a-product/e7dfc212f9c84df18e279deb017a0478#e7dfc212f9c84df18e279deb017a0478 reinux 77 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/reinux/Discussions/RSS