blindlizard wrote:

The difference is that the Saddam rape rooms were government sanctioned.  Also, when American service memebers brake the law like this, they get prosecuted.  This should improve the US view in the world.  

Shark_M wrote:



blindlizard wrote: The difference is that the Saddam rape rooms were government sanctioned.  Also, when American service memebers brake the law like this, they get prosecuted.  This should improve the US view in the world.

yeah, a slap in the hand. Look at Abu-Ghraib. And how do we know these soldiers were not told that its ok to break the law?

Shark_M wrote:



blindlizard wrote: ...

...

Look at Abu-Ghraib. And how do we know these soldiers were not told that its ok to break the law?

out180 wrote:



Shark_M wrote: blindlizard wrote: ... ... Look at Abu-Ghraib. And how do we know these soldiers were not told that its ok to break the law?

As far as Abu-Ghraid is concerned you don't know unless you were there.

Shark_M wrote:

 blindlizard wrote: The difference is that the Saddam rape rooms were government sanctioned.  Also, when American service memebers brake the law like this, they get prosecuted.  This should improve the US view in the world.  yeah, a slap in the hand. Look at Abu-Ghraib. And how do we know these soldiers were not told that its ok to break the law?

Shark_M wrote:



out180 wrote:  Shark_M wrote:  blindlizard wrote: ... ... Look at Abu-Ghraib. And how do we know these soldiers were not told that its ok to break the law? As far as Abu-Ghraid is concerned you don't know unless you were there.

I have seen enough to know what they did was Crimes against humanity in Abu-Ghraib. It will tarnish US image for ever.

So now , when you blaim other countries like China for human right abuses , they will say , look who is pointing fingers!

blindlizard wrote:

Here are the convictions from Abu-Ghraib, not slaps on the wrists by my estimates (10 years in prison is no slap). Specialist Charles Graner was found guilty on January 14, 2005 of all charges, including conspiracy to maltreat detainees, failing to protect detainees from abuse, cruelty, and maltreatment, as well as charges of assault, indecency, adultery, and obstruction of justice. On January 15, 2005, he was sentenced to ten years in federal prison.[citation needed] Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick pled guilty on October 20, 2004 to conspiracy, dereliction of duty, maltreatment of detainees, assault and committing an indecent act in exchange for other charges being dropped. His abuses included making three prisoners (I need to watch my language). He also punched one prisoner so hard in the chest that he needed resuscitation. He was sentenced to eight years in prison, forfeiture of pay, a dishonorable discharge and a reduction in rank to private. [citation needed] Jeremy Sivits was sentenced on May 19, 2004 by a special court-martial (less severe than "general"; confinement sentence limited to one year) to the maximum one-year sentence, in addition to being discharged for bad conduct and demoted, upon his plea of guilty.[citation needed] Specialist Armin Cruz of the 325th Military Intelligence Battalion was sentenced on September 11, 2004 to eight months confinement, reduction in rank to private and a bad conduct discharge in exchange for his testimony against other soldiers.[21] Sabrina Harman was sentenced on May 17, 2005 to six months in prison and a bad conduct discharge after being convicted on six of the seven counts. She had faced a maximum sentence of 5 years.[citation needed] Megan Ambuhl was convicted on October 30, 2004, of dereliction of duty and sentenced to reduction in rank to private and loss of a half-month’s pay.[citation needed] Lynndie England was convicted on September 26, 2005, of one count of conspiracy, four counts of maltreating detainees and one count of committing an indecent act. She was acquitted on a second conspiracy count. England had faced a maximum sentence of ten years, but was sentenced on September 27, 2005, to just 3 years. She received a dishonorable discharge.[citation needed]

Shark_M wrote: blindlizard wrote: The difference is that the Saddam rape rooms were government sanctioned.  Also, when American service memebers brake the law like this, they get prosecuted.  This should improve the US view in the world.  yeah, a slap in the hand. Look at Abu-Ghraib. And how do we know these soldiers were not told that its ok to break the law?

Manip wrote:

I kind of expect this from the US Army now...

blindlizard wrote:

The thing is that everyone is watching the US military through a microsope.  I would bet that (an no I haven't researched this it is just a gut feeling) if you looked at any military conflict in the history of the world you would find this same stuff happening.  I am not saying it is not horrific, I am just saying that US service members are not the only ones to do it.  The big difference is that the US government investigates and punishes them for it

Shark_M wrote:



There were some deaths due to what they did. These soldiers demonstrated acts of coward behavior. They should get life in prison or even death for betrayal of the Code of Honor and betrayal of US values.

The stories are comming one by one, and from the looks of it, I did not know that US soldiers can be this cowardly, murdering innocent civilians and raping young defenseless girls in front of their mom and dad.

More and more these gang that took over office, are making America look like Germany during the 1940s

Manip wrote:

I kind of expect this from the US Army now...

They think that Iraqi civilians are no better than animals, and you can easily find video, images and stories of US soldiers killing, torturing and assaulting civilians.

out180 wrote:


Guilt by association guys.  The lumping of US soldiers and US Army when discussing these acts is very reckless.  For every 1 bad one there's tens of thousands of very honorable men and women.  That's the cause of the image degradation, not the acts but the hasty generalization that takes place becuase of those acts.

SCMcDonnell wrote:

Your sentence explaining the article is an outright lie.  You should be ashamed.

No where in that article does it say "charged" or convicted.  But, obviously you cannot stand your country and read into the article what you HOPE the turnout will be.  It's disgusting and even if it does turn out to be true you will not be able to avoid looking stupid, uneducated, and anti-American. 

In this country, we are innocent until proven guilty.

Go away.

SM.

Manip wrote:



blindlizard wrote: The thing is that everyone is watching the US military through a microsope.  I would bet that (an no I haven't researched this it is just a gut feeling) if you looked at any military conflict in the history of the world you would find this same stuff happening.  I am not saying it is not horrific, I am just saying that US service members are not the only ones to do it.  The big difference is that the US government investigates and punishes them for it

I guess that makes it ok then? ... Maybe the US army could increase rapes and murders and with it increase troop moral? ... Perhaps every Saturday each troop could go out and find a random Iraqi to kill, like a free pass to murder? ... Fun Fun Fun...

Manip wrote:



out180 wrote: Guilt by association guys.  The lumping of US soldiers and US Army when discussing these acts is very reckless.  For every 1 bad one there's tens of thousands of very honorable men and women.  That's the cause of the image degradation, not the acts but the hasty generalization that takes place becuase of those acts.

Wrong.

Most incidents that occur involve more than one individual... And having lots of reported incidents all involving groups of people indicates that there is something wrong at the very core of the US armies training, recruitment or management.

out180 wrote:



Manip wrote:  blindlizard wrote: The thing is that everyone is watching the US military through a microsope.  I would bet that (an no I haven't researched this it is just a gut feeling) if you looked at any military conflict in the history of the world you would find this same stuff happening.  I am not saying it is not horrific, I am just saying that US service members are not the only ones to do it.  The big difference is that the US government investigates and punishes them for it I guess that makes it ok then? ... Maybe the US army could increase rapes and murders and with it increase troop moral? ... Perhaps every Saturday each troop could go out and find a random Iraqi to kill, like a free pass to murder? ... Fun Fun Fun...

You could have made your point with resorting to this reply.

Manip wrote:



out180 wrote:  Guilt by association guys.  The lumping of US soldiers and US Army when discussing these acts is very reckless.  For every 1 bad one there's tens of thousands of very honorable men and women.  That's the cause of the image degradation, not the acts but the hasty generalization that takes place becuase of those acts.

Wrong.

Most incidents that occur involve more than one individual... And having lots of reported incidents all involving groups of people indicates that there is something wrong at the very core of the US armies training, recruitment or management.

SCMcDonnell wrote:

You have yet to to make changes to your comments.  You make statements with no credibility.  You make sh|t up to benefit your world view and anti-Americanism.  It's shameful.What does any of this have to do with DHS?  Stay on topic rather than trying to avoid taking responsibility for your lies and deceipt.SM

Shark_M wrote:

So to be not Anti-American, I have to cheer and clap and dance for the war crimes committed in the Name of America by the US Armed Forces, and say good job , like Pres. Bush is doing and saying.A young girl was raped and burned alive by those bas-tards, and you talk about Anti-Americanism.

Manip wrote:



out180 wrote:  Manip wrote:  blindlizard wrote: The thing is that everyone is watching the US military through a microsope.  I would bet that (an no I haven't researched this it is just a gut feeling) if you looked at any military conflict in the history of the world you would find this same stuff happening.  I am not saying it is not horrific, I am just saying that US service members are not the only ones to do it.  The big difference is that the US government investigates and punishes them for it I guess that makes it ok then? ... Maybe the US army could increase rapes and murders and with it increase troop moral? ... Perhaps every Saturday each troop could go out and find a random Iraqi to kill, like a free pass to murder? ... Fun Fun Fun... You could have made your point with resorting to this reply.

I realize that, I just wanted to draw attention to just how ridiculous it is to try and justify these types of things.

Manip wrote:

Maybe it is somewhat guilt by association, but can you really blame me? You see SO little good, and so much bad from the US ground troops... And all the good you do see looks completely setup so its hard to know what to believe.

I have far more respect for the US Special Forces, Navy, and airforce.

blindlizard wrote:

  I think your idea that the government must be behind it since these things are poping up like this is flawed. 

Manip wrote:



blindlizard wrote:   ...

... 

Giving the troops inadequate training, and selecting the wrong people to be in the army are both things the government has to address, but that is a far stretch from directly ordering or authorizing the troops to commit such monstrous acts.

out180 wrote:



Manip wrote:  blindlizard wrote:   ...  ...  Giving the troops inadequate training, and selecting the wrong people to be in the army are both things the government has to address, but that is a far stretch from directly ordering or authorizing the troops to commit such monstrous acts.

That is so very true.  There is, and has been for some time, a serious standards, or lack there of, issue in the ranks.  Ignorance begets disaster.

Shark_M wrote:



SCMcDonnell wrote: You have yet to to make changes to your comments.  You make statements with no credibility.  You make sh|t up to benefit your world view and anti-Americanism.  It's shameful.What does any of this have to do with DHS?  Stay on topic rather than trying to avoid taking responsibility for your lies and deceipt.SM

So to be not Anti-American, I have to cheer and clap and dance for the war crimes committed in the Name of America by the US Armed Forces, and say good job , like Pres. Bush is doing and saying.A young girl was raped and burned alive by those ba$tard$, and you talk about Anti-Americanism.

Manip wrote:



out180 wrote:  Guilt by association guys.  The lumping of US soldiers and US Army when discussing these acts is very reckless.  For every 1 bad one there's tens of thousands of very honorable men and women.  That's the cause of the image degradation, not the acts but the hasty generalization that takes place becuase of those acts.

Wrong.

Most incidents that occur involve more than one individual... And having lots of reported incidents all involving groups of people indicates that there is something wrong at the very core of the US armies training, recruitment or management.

SCMcDonnell wrote:



Shark_M wrote:  SCMcDonnell wrote: You have yet to to make changes to your comments.  You make statements with no credibility.  You make sh|t up to benefit your world view and anti-Americanism.  It's shameful.What does any of this have to do with DHS?  Stay on topic rather than trying to avoid taking responsibility for your lies and deceipt.SM So to be not Anti-American, I have to cheer and clap and dance for the war crimes committed in the Name of America by the US Armed Forces, and say good job , like Pres. Bush is doing and saying.A young girl was raped and burned alive by those ba$tard$, and you talk about Anti-Americanism.

Again, you're missing the point.  I am not defining what is "American" but you need to tell the truth about the article and what it says.  Yes, a young girl was raped and the people who did that deserve death.  However, you have made false statements regarding the content of the article to fit what you HOPE the outcome of nothing but an "investigation."  It's not smart and shows lack of credibility in anything you say.

SM

SCMcDonnell wrote:



Shark_M wrote: SCMcDonnell wrote: You have yet to to make changes to your comments.  You make statements with no credibility.  You make sh|t up to benefit your world view and anti-Americanism.  It's shameful.What does any of this have to do with DHS?  Stay on topic rather than trying to avoid taking responsibility for your lies and deceipt.SM So to be not Anti-American, I have to cheer and clap and dance for the war crimes committed in the Name of America by the US Armed Forces, and say good job , like Pres. Bush is doing and saying.A young girl was raped and burned alive by those ba$tard$, and you talk about Anti-Americanism.

Again, you're missing the point.  I am not defining what is "American" but you need to tell the truth about the article and what it says.  Yes, a young girl was raped and the people who did that deserve death.  However, you have made false statements regarding the content of the article to fit what you HOPE the outcome of nothing but an "investigation."  It's not smart and shows lack of credibility in anything you say.

SM

Shark_M wrote:



SCMcDonnell wrote:  Shark_M wrote:  SCMcDonnell wrote: ... ... ...

... 

So a war crime HAS been committed, and it is Highly probable that the US Forces involved are guilty of this crime. The Trials are only a way to formalize things. But nonetheless, a crime has been comitted and a girl died in Cold Blood at the hands and guns of those barbaric savages.

rephrase wrote:

But nonetheless, a crime has been comitted and a girl died in Cold Blood at the hands and guns of the barbaric savage(s) that have yet to be positively identified.

SCMcDonnell wrote:

What else can one imply when you deliberately misquote an article to make it look like soldiers have been charged and convicted of a crime that is only in the investigation phase - just like Haditha?

Again, I am calling you out on your false statements and you have yet to recognize the ignorance in those statements.

SM

Shark_M wrote:



SCMcDonnell wrote: What else can one imply when you deliberately misquote an article to make it look like soldiers have been charged and convicted of a crime that is only in the investigation phase - just like Haditha? Again, I am calling you out on your false statements and you have yet to recognize the ignorance in those statements. SM

They are in the process to being charged. I have no problem , in this day and age where after what we saw what the army is doing and is capable of, of assuming them guilty until proven otherwise.

Just like Pres. Bush can call those in GTMO killers without giving them assumption of innocence until proven otherwise in a Court of Law.

SCMcDonnell wrote:



Shark_M wrote: SCMcDonnell wrote: What else can one imply when you deliberately misquote an article to make it look like soldiers have been charged and convicted of a crime that is only in the investigation phase - just like Haditha? Again, I am calling you out on your false statements and you have yet to recognize the ignorance in those statements. SM They are in the process to being charged. I have no problem , in this day and age where after what we saw what the army is doing and is capable of, of assuming them guilty until proven otherwise. Just like Pres. Bush can call those in GTMO killers without giving them assumption of innocence until proven otherwise in a Court of Law.

Therein lies the reason why liberals never win elections - their emotions assume truth and their conspiracies become truth.

And again, you are wrong and making false statements.  The definitions of being investigated does not contain "process of being charged." 

And since you have "no problem" assuming one is guilty until proven innocent you have shown how your emotions rule you while evidence does not.  You don't happen to be related to Dan Rather do you?

SM

Shark_M wrote:




They are in the process to being charged.

Shark_M wrote:

 I have no problem , in this day and age where after what we saw what the army is doing and is capable of, of assuming them guilty until proven otherwise.

Shark_M wrote:

Just like Pres. Bush can call those in GTMO killers without giving them assumption of innocence until proven otherwise in a Court of Law.

Shark_M wrote:



SCMcDonnell wrote:  Shark_M wrote:  SCMcDonnell wrote: What else can one imply when you deliberately misquote an article to make it look like soldiers have been charged and convicted of a crime that is only in the investigation phase - just like Haditha? Again, I am calling you out on your false statements and you have yet to recognize the ignorance in those statements. SM They are in the process to being charged. I have no problem , in this day and age where after what we saw what the army is doing and is capable of, of assuming them guilty until proven otherwise. Just like Pres. Bush can call those in GTMO killers without giving them assumption of innocence until proven otherwise in a Court of Law. Therein lies the reason why liberals never win elections - their emotions assume truth and their conspiracies become truth. And again, you are wrong and making false statements.  The definitions of being investigated does not contain "process of being charged."  And since you have "no problem" assuming one is guilty until proven innocent you have shown how your emotions rule you while evidence does not.  You don't happen to be related to Dan Rather do you? SM

I have seen enough testimony and reports to satisfy my assumptions. The Iraqi Police wanted to arrest those guilty but US said they will investigate and prosecute them. Now they have done investigation, they US Army now beleives there is sufficient evidence to prosecute those involved.

You can wait until its official. Its upto you.

SCMcDonnell wrote:



Shark_M wrote:  SCMcDonnell wrote: What else can one imply when you deliberately misquote an article to make it look like soldiers have been charged and convicted of a crime that is only in the investigation phase - just like Haditha? Again, I am calling you out on your false statements and you have yet to recognize the ignorance in those statements. SM They are in the process to being charged. I have no problem , in this day and age where after what we saw what the army is doing and is capable of, of assuming them guilty until proven otherwise. Just like Pres. Bush can call those in GTMO killers without giving them assumption of innocence until proven otherwise in a Court of Law.

Therein lies the reason why liberals never win elections - their emotions assume truth and their conspiracies become truth.

SCMcDonnell wrote:



And again, you are wrong and making false statements.  The definitions of being investigated does not contain "process of being charged." 

SCMcDonnell wrote:


And since you have "no problem" assuming one is guilty until proven innocent you have shown how your emotions rule you while evidence does not.  You don't happen to be related to Dan Rather do you?

SCMcDonnell wrote:


SM

ScanIAm wrote:

It is also a good reason why Gitmo is an abuse of civil rights.  Regardless of their standing (combatants, soldiers, terrorists, whatever), these people need to be charged with something.  Otherwise, they are simply being abused under false pretenses.

blindlizard wrote:

I disagree, you do not have to charge prisioners of war with anything.  If they were picked up on the battle field,

blinklizard wrote:

they can be detained until the war is over. 

blinklizard wrote:

we didn't charge German POWs with anything or give them lawyers.

blinklizard wrote:

ScanIAm wrote: It is also a good reason why Gitmo is an abuse of civil rights.  Regardless of their standing (combatants, soldiers, terrorists, whatever), these people need to be charged with something.  Otherwise, they are simply being abused under false pretenses.

ScanIAm wrote:



blinklizard wrote: they can be detained until the war is over.

A war against terrorism has no end.  By your reasoning, they can be detained forever.  They may not deserve better, but we should be taking the high road whenever possible.

blindlizard wrote:

The countries they were picked up in (Afganistan and Iraq) are still war zones with our military still activly engaged, at this point I don't think they have been detained too long.

ScanIAm wrote:  blinklizard wrote: they can be detained until the war is over.  A war against terrorism has no end.  By your reasoning, they can be detained forever.  They may not deserve better, but we should be taking the high road whenever possible.

It's clear to any reasonable, rational individual who the bad guys really are.

Shark_M wrote:



blindlizard wrote: The difference is that the Saddam rape rooms were government sanctioned.  Also, when American service memebers brake the law like this, they get prosecuted.  This should improve the US view in the world.

yeah, a slap in the hand. Look at Abu-Ghraib. And how do we know these soldiers were not told that its ok to break the law?

SCMcDonnell wrote:



Shark_M wrote:  SCMcDonnell wrote: You have yet to to make changes to your comments.  You make statements with no credibility.  You make sh|t up to benefit your world view and anti-Americanism.  It's shameful.What does any of this have to do with DHS?  Stay on topic rather than trying to avoid taking responsibility for your lies and deceipt.SM So to be not Anti-American, I have to cheer and clap and dance for the war crimes committed in the Name of America by the US Armed Forces, and say good job , like Pres. Bush is doing and saying.A young girl was raped and burned alive by those ba$tard$, and you talk about Anti-Americanism.

Again, you're missing the point.  I am not defining what is "American" but you need to tell the truth about the article and what it says.  Yes, a young girl was raped and the people who did that deserve death.  However, you have made false statements regarding the content of the article to fit what you HOPE the outcome of nothing but an "investigation."  It's not smart and shows lack of credibility in anything you say.

SM

pacelvi wrote:



SCMcDonnell wrote: Shark_M wrote:  SCMcDonnell wrote: You have yet to to make changes to your comments.  You make statements with no credibility.  You make sh|t up to benefit your world view and anti-Americanism.  It's shameful.What does any of this have to do with DHS?  Stay on topic rather than trying to avoid taking responsibility for your lies and deceipt.SM So to be not Anti-American, I have to cheer and clap and dance for the war crimes committed in the Name of America by the US Armed Forces, and say good job , like Pres. Bush is doing and saying.A young girl was raped and burned alive by those ba$tard$, and you talk about Anti-Americanism. Again, you're missing the point.  I am not defining what is "American" but you need to tell the truth about the article and what it says.  Yes, a young girl was raped and the people who did that deserve death.  However, you have made false statements regarding the content of the article to fit what you HOPE the outcome of nothing but an "investigation."  It's not smart and shows lack of credibility in anything you say. SM

Save your breath.. you're arguing with someone who posted a link to the Jamie MacBeth or whatever-his-name-was's fraudulant video claiming he killed hundreds of people in Iraq, and then when told of its unrefutable falseness still claimed that even if it was fake it was true.

Shark_M wrote:



Aha, so your logic is that if someone makes a claim, that claim is false because there is a problem with the claimant? that is a fallacious argument (ad homenim). He was speaking form what he experianced. What incentives does he have to lie? More importantly, even if there is a problem with the claimant, others have said essentially the same thing. So the claims are supported by stories of other soldiers. Which makes it highly probable that it is true. Especially in the aftermath of Abu-Ghraib and Haditha and others.

vistawillship wrote:



Do I need to bring out the mod colors?

Turn this back into a software discussion. Have you tried the latest Visual Studio? Have you checked out Vista Beta? I encourage you to do so.

Shark_M wrote:


Aha, so your logic is that if someone makes a claim, that claim is false because there is a problem with the claimant? that is a fallacious argument (ad homenim). He was speaking form what he experianced. What incentives does he have to lie? More importantly, even if there is a problem with the claimant, others have said essentially the same thing. So the claims are supported by stories of other soldiers. Which makes it highly probable that it is true. Especially in the aftermath of Abu-Ghraib and Haditha and others.

vistawillship wrote:



blindlizard wrote:Go away unless you have something to add.  We are having a perfectly adult debate on this.  The Coffeehouse is not just for software, at least from what I have read in the rules. vistawillship wrote:  Do I need to bring out the mod colors? Turn this back into a software discussion. Have you tried the latest Visual Studio? Have you checked out Vista Beta? I encourage you to do so.

They are not my rules. Charles has repeatedly said he does not like discourse that gets into these issues. He routinely locks these types of threads. They are highly offensive.

vistawillship wrote:

You are wrong. Yet I will show you the gentle path. He locks threads that deal with religion, war, spam, and Linux. They always turn into flamewars. This thread shows several signs of turning into a flamewar. Please, discuss Windows OneCare.

I will tell you, though, if I ran Channel 9, this thread would have been locked a long time ago. There is no place for anything but Microsoft software on Channel 9.

vistawillship wrote:



blindlizard wrote: He locks threads that get into flame wars, this has not. We are all acting like adults, and if you are offended, then go to a "software thread" vistawillship wrote:  blindlizard wrote: Go away unless you have something to add.  We are having a perfectly adult debate on this.  The Coffeehouse is not just for software, at least from what I have read in the rules. vistawillship wrote:  Do I need to bring out the mod colors? Turn this back into a software discussion. Have you tried the latest Visual Studio? Have you checked out Vista Beta? I encourage you to do so. They are not my rules. Charles has repeatedly said he does not like discourse that gets into these issues. He routinely locks these types of threads. They are highly offensive.

You are wrong. Yet I will show you the gentle path. He locks threads that deal with religion, war, spam, and Linux. They always turn into flamewars. This thread shows several signs of turning into a flamewar. Please, discuss Windows OneCare.

I will tell you, though, if I ran Channel 9, this thread would have been locked a long time ago. There is no place for anything but Microsoft software on Channel 9.

Shark_M wrote:

The US need to hold the Army Accountable. Fire Donald Duck ... I mean Donald Rumsfield over these Atrocities .

I think Adolf Hitler's "Mini-me", has taken over the Oval Office In Washington. His grandfather was a financial officer of Aolf Hitler.

So from Concentration Camps in Guantanamo and all over Europe, to rape and murder of little Iraqi girls.

No one in their right mind would defend the kind of crimes that have been committed by some involved in the conflict... the problem is that some folks like you assume that because a small group of people choose to be bad it must be a symptom of policies and that those making the end decisions must be causing these very things to happen.

I’m sorry to say that that is not the case and it is a shame you cannot see that. In any large group of people you will have people who do these kinds of things whether they are in the Army, Marines, working at a church, day care center or a 9-5 coder.

Unless you want to completely lobotomize our troops (and also remove their effectiveness as a fighting force) people like this will sadly fall through the cracks.

Don’t get me wrong, what these troops have been accused of is disgraceful and undefendable (if true)... why is it though that you get so hot under the collar every time there is an allegation of our troops acting poorly (which is quite rare considering the numbers over there) and don’t seem to bat an eye when the those we are fighting commit far worse atrocities (as is part of their official doctrine) against not only our troops, but also the civilians.

Don’t you find this at least a bit hypocritical?

Or are you so full of hate of America, it's leadership or just a person or two there that only they can do wrong and nothing else can compare?

Shark_M wrote:

Right now I dont give a rat's a$$ as to my credibility, young girls were raped and murdered and burned in the most horrific way, and you have the odasity to talk about hypocracy and credibility.

Man you have moral issues , I suggest you spend some time in psychological rehabilitation center, so they can revive your sense of morality.

I dunno about you, but I am a big fan of equality. If two people commit the same crime and in the same manor then they should be punished in the same way... why should there be a difference if one person is from this group or that?

When you take away this equality (or even the possibility of it) you end up with a double standard, rules for those we like and rules for those we don’t like. But who is it who is going to decide which rules apply to who? You? Me? Far easier and safer to have a single measuring stick rather than throwing in all of the niceties you are implying.

dahat wrote:



Shark_M wrote: Right now I dont give a rat's a$$ as to my credibility, young girls were raped and murdered and burned in the most horrific way, and you have the odasity to talk about hypocracy and credibility. Man you have moral issues , I suggest you spend some time in psychological rehabilitation center, so they can revive your sense of morality.

So morality says that one side is more guilty than another? Incorrect.

You completely missed my point but that’s ok... let me summarize it for you real quick...

I dunno about you, but I am a big fan of equality. If two people commit the same crime and in the same manor then they should be punished in the same way... why should there be a difference if one person is from this group or that?

When you take away this equality (or even the possibility of it) you end up with a double standard, rules for those we like and rules for those we don’t like. But who is it who is going to decide which rules apply to who? You? Me? Far easier and safer to have a single measuring stick rather than throwing in all of the niceties you are implying.

pacelvi wrote:

Shark:  Why are peace activists like yourself such angry and miserable people? And why is it that you think they seem unable to think rationally?

fdisk wrote:

There are so many first-time offenders here. Hmmm. Who to ban first?

fdisk wrote:

There are so many first-time offenders here. Hmmm. Who to ban first?

ScanIAm wrote:



SCMcDonnell wrote:  Shark_M wrote:  SCMcDonnell wrote: What else can one imply when you deliberately misquote an article to make it look like soldiers have been charged and convicted of a crime that is only in the investigation phase - just like Haditha? Again, I am calling you out on your false statements and you have yet to recognize the ignorance in those statements. SM They are in the process to being charged. I have no problem , in this day and age where after what we saw what the army is doing and is capable of, of assuming them guilty until proven otherwise. Just like Pres. Bush can call those in GTMO killers without giving them assumption of innocence until proven otherwise in a Court of Law. Therein lies the reason why liberals never win elections - their emotions assume truth and their conspiracies become truth.

whoa, Whoa, WHOA, hold up there, trigger. 

Do not assume that the rabid rantings of a few are an accurate representation of liberal ideas, thoughts, or beliefs. 

Argue with the person.

SCMcDonnell wrote:  And again, you are wrong and making false statements.  The definitions of being investigated does not contain "process of being charged."

Exactly.  Suspision does not mean guilt.

SCMcDonnell wrote:  And since you have "no problem" assuming one is guilty until proven innocent you have shown how your emotions rule you while evidence does not.  You don't happen to be related to Dan Rather do you?

And you, to Ann Coulter? 

See, it isn't so nice to question someone's geneology.

SCMcDonnell wrote:  SM

Shark, regarless of your suspicions, beliefs, whatever, you are wrong to assume guilt until there is a full investigation.  At that point, you can invent all the conspiracy theories that you wish.

We (Amereicans, and the UK, I think) we assume innocence until guilt is proven.  Sometimes, the bad guys slip through the cracks (OJ, for example), but that is the price we pay to avoid putting innocent people in jail.

It is also a good reason why Gitmo is an abuse of civil rights.  Regardless of their standing (combatants, soldiers, terrorists, whatever), these people need to be charged with something.  Otherwise, they are simply being abused under false pretenses.

pacelvi wrote:



SCMcDonnell wrote:  Shark_M wrote:  SCMcDonnell wrote: You have yet to to make changes to your comments.  You make statements with no credibility.  You make sh|t up to benefit your world view and anti-Americanism.  It's shameful.What does any of this have to do with DHS?  Stay on topic rather than trying to avoid taking responsibility for your lies and deceipt.SM So to be not Anti-American, I have to cheer and clap and dance for the war crimes committed in the Name of America by the US Armed Forces, and say good job , like Pres. Bush is doing and saying.A young girl was raped and burned alive by those ba$tard$, and you talk about Anti-Americanism. Again, you're missing the point.  I am not defining what is "American" but you need to tell the truth about the article and what it says.  Yes, a young girl was raped and the people who did that deserve death.  However, you have made false statements regarding the content of the article to fit what you HOPE the outcome of nothing but an "investigation."  It's not smart and shows lack of credibility in anything you say. SM

Save your breath.. you're arguing with someone who posted a link to the Jamie MacBeth or whatever-his-name-was's fraudulant video claiming he killed hundreds of people in Iraq, and then when told of its unrefutable falseness still claimed that even if it was fake it was true.

Shark_M wrote:



dahat wrote:  Shark_M wrote: The US need to hold the Army Accountable. Fire Donald Duck ... I mean Donald Rumsfield over these Atrocities . I think Adolf Hitler's "Mini-me", has taken over the Oval Office In Washington. His grandfather was a financial officer of Aolf Hitler. So from Concentration Camps in Guantanamo and all over Europe, to rape and murder of little Iraqi girls. Wow. F-ing wow. You realize that any credibility you might have once had has completely evaporated right? No one in their right mind would defend the kind of crimes that have been committed by some involved in the conflict... the problem is that some folks like you assume that because a small group of people choose to be bad it must be a symptom of policies and that those making the end decisions must be causing these very things to happen. I’m sorry to say that that is not the case and it is a shame you cannot see that. In any large group of people you will have people who do these kinds of things whether they are in the Army, Marines, working at a church, day care center or a 9-5 coder. Unless you want to completely lobotomize our troops (and also remove their effectiveness as a fighting force) people like this will sadly fall through the cracks. Don’t get me wrong, what these troops have been accused of is disgraceful and undefendable (if true)... why is it though that you get so hot under the collar every time there is an allegation of our troops acting poorly (which is quite rare considering the numbers over there) and don’t seem to bat an eye when the those we are fighting commit far worse atrocities (as is part of their official doctrine) against not only our troops, but also the civilians. Don’t you find this at least a bit hypocritical? Or are you so full of hate of America, it's leadership or just a person or two there that only they can do wrong and nothing else can compare?

Right now I dont give a rat's a$$ as to my credibility, young girls were raped and murdered and burned in the most horrific way, and you have the odasity to talk about hypocracy and credibility.

Man you have moral issues , I suggest you spend some time in psychological rehabilitation center, so they can revive your sense of morality.


Secondly, This is a systematic thing in the Army, its not only 1 or 2 incidents, its a shower of incidents. Which suggests something is really and seriously wrong with this Army lead by the new Anti-Christ.

Thirdly, I dont comment on what the enemy is doing, because we dont hold the enemy to a high standard as we do The US Army. YOUR COMMENT says if they are doing it (though no reports) then why not let the United States Of America's Army do it. Its sad!

SCMcDonnell wrote:



Shark_M wrote:  dahat wrote:  Shark_M wrote: The US need to hold the Army Accountable. Fire Donald Duck ... I mean Donald Rumsfield over these Atrocities . I think Adolf Hitler's "Mini-me", has taken over the Oval Office In Washington. His grandfather was a financial officer of Aolf Hitler. So from Concentration Camps in Guantanamo and all over Europe, to rape and murder of little Iraqi girls. Wow. F-ing wow. You realize that any credibility you might have once had has completely evaporated right? No one in their right mind would defend the kind of crimes that have been committed by some involved in the conflict... the problem is that some folks like you assume that because a small group of people choose to be bad it must be a symptom of policies and that those making the end decisions must be causing these very things to happen. I’m sorry to say that that is not the case and it is a shame you cannot see that. In any large group of people you will have people who do these kinds of things whether they are in the Army, Marines, working at a church, day care center or a 9-5 coder. Unless you want to completely lobotomize our troops (and also remove their effectiveness as a fighting force) people like this will sadly fall through the cracks. Don’t get me wrong, what these troops have been accused of is disgraceful and undefendable (if true)... why is it though that you get so hot under the collar every time there is an allegation of our troops acting poorly (which is quite rare considering the numbers over there) and don’t seem to bat an eye when the those we are fighting commit far worse atrocities (as is part of their official doctrine) against not only our troops, but also the civilians. Don’t you find this at least a bit hypocritical? Or are you so full of hate of America, it's leadership or just a person or two there that only they can do wrong and nothing else can compare? Right now I dont give a rat's a$$ as to my credibility, young girls were raped and murdered and burned in the most horrific way, and you have the odasity to talk about hypocracy and credibility. Man you have moral issues , I suggest you spend some time in psychological rehabilitation center, so they can revive your sense of morality. Secondly, This is a systematic thing in the Army, its not only 1 or 2 incidents, its a shower of incidents. Which suggests something is really and seriously wrong with this Army lead by the new Anti-Christ. Thirdly, I dont comment on what the enemy is doing, because we dont hold the enemy to a high standard as we do The US Army. YOUR COMMENT says if they are doing it (though no reports) then why not let the United States Of America's Army do it. Its sad!

Shark_M:  No matter what anyone says bad about you, your ideals, and what you believe, please keep posting things like this and please keep letting your conspiracies be heard. 

It will help keep conservatives in office.

SM.

Shark_M wrote:


O, I will keep posting, but I fail to see how my postings will help keep conservatives in office?

dahat wrote:



Shark_M wrote: The US need to hold the Army Accountable. Fire Donald Duck ... I mean Donald Rumsfield over these Atrocities . I think Adolf Hitler's "Mini-me", has taken over the Oval Office In Washington. His grandfather was a financial officer of Aolf Hitler. So from Concentration Camps in Guantanamo and all over Europe, to rape and murder of little Iraqi girls.

Wow. F-ing wow. You realize that any credibility you might have once had has completely evaporated right?

No one in their right mind would defend the kind of crimes that have been committed by some involved in the conflict... the problem is that some folks like you assume that because a small group of people choose to be bad it must be a symptom of policies and that those making the end decisions must be causing these very things to happen.

I’m sorry to say that that is not the case and it is a shame you cannot see that. In any large group of people you will have people who do these kinds of things whether they are in the Army, Marines, working at a church, day care center or a 9-5 coder.

Unless you want to completely lobotomize our troops (and also remove their effectiveness as a fighting force) people like this will sadly fall through the cracks.

Don’t get me wrong, what these troops have been accused of is disgraceful and undefendable (if true)... why is it though that you get so hot under the collar every time there is an allegation of our troops acting poorly (which is quite rare considering the numbers over there) and don’t seem to bat an eye when the those we are fighting commit far worse atrocities (as is part of their official doctrine) against not only our troops, but also the civilians.

Don’t you find this at least a bit hypocritical?

Or are you so full of hate of America, it's leadership or just a person or two there that only they can do wrong and nothing else can compare?

>>What is this doing to US image in the world?



Beleive me, your "image" is already completely ruined long time ago!

BlackTiger wrote:



>>What is this doing to US image in the world?



Beleive me, your "image" is already completely ruined long time ago!

messerschmitt wrote:

Given that the US armed forces have something like, what? 130k + servicemen in Iraq its impossible to avoid having a couple of rotten apples in the basket, im confident that US military justice system will punish them for this as they have done previously with others.

14 convicted so far out of 130000, thats 0,0107 % or one in ~9346 persons on a yearly basis, im imaging that the conviction rate for murder and rape per capita in the continental USA each year are considerably higher than that.

Shark_M wrote:

Ha!, I beleive this is systematic thing. Because the frequency of it happening. There need to be a system of PREVENTION to deter such soldiers from doing this. Like allowing cameras into each army unit , and each unit would have to hand in their mission video for review. Just like in the Air Force.

Or maybe a "embedded" reporter? lets see, im guessing that the army and marines combined have something like 10-15 brigade teams in Iraq, lets say that each of them sends out about 100 combat patrols per day in various places in Iraq, that would require at least  1000 -1500  cameramen plus support for them every day out in the field documenting everything that the patrol is doing, it simply isnt feasible.

messerschmitt wrote:



Shark_M wrote: Ha!, I beleive this is systematic thing. Because the frequency of it happening. There need to be a system of PREVENTION to deter such soldiers from doing this. Like allowing cameras into each army unit , and each unit would have to hand in their mission video for review. Just like in the Air Force.

Uhu?, its doesnt work quite that way for the ground troops, im a reserv officer myself (not in the US) who should hold the camera for once? should that be only one camera or should all in the patrol have one?

Or maybe a "embedded" reporter? lets see, im guessing that the army and marines combined have something like 10-15 brigade teams in Iraq, lets say that each of them sends out about 100 combat patrols per day in various places in Iraq, that would require at least  1000 -1500  cameramen plus support for them every day out in the field documenting everything that the patrol is doing, it simply isnt feasible.

Shark_M wrote:


well you can ship helments with cameras in them. That are connected wirelessly to a server farm, and for each day top commanders or special team woul review each mission's video feed to see if they broke any morality rules or they deviated from the Military Code of Honor.

messerschmitt wrote:



Shark_M wrote:  well you can ship helments with cameras in them. That are connected wirelessly to a server farm, and for each day top commanders or special team woul review each mission's video feed to see if they broke any morality rules or they deviated from the Military Code of Honor.

Thats silly, just imaging the manpower and resources for watching all these videos, and for what? besides, w-less cameras are not very reliable, contrary to what you may have seen in h-wood movies.

If you have trained and equipped soldiers you will just have to trust that they will do their jobs honourable