The Saga of War Crimes Continues: Rape & Murder

Manip wrote:



out180 wrote: Guilt by association guys.  The lumping of US soldiers and US Army when discussing these acts is very reckless.  For every 1 bad one there's tens of thousands of very honorable men and women.  That's the cause of the image degradation, not the acts but the hasty generalization that takes place becuase of those acts.

Wrong.

Most incidents that occur involve more than one individual... And having lots of reported incidents all involving groups of people indicates that there is something wrong at the very core of the US armies training, recruitment or management.

Agreed

out180 wrote:



Manip wrote:  blindlizard wrote: The thing is that everyone is watching the US military through a microsope.  I would bet that (an no I haven't researched this it is just a gut feeling) if you looked at any military conflict in the history of the world you would find this same stuff happening.  I am not saying it is not horrific, I am just saying that US service members are not the only ones to do it.  The big difference is that the US government investigates and punishes them for it I guess that makes it ok then? ... Maybe the US army could increase rapes and murders and with it increase troop moral? ... Perhaps every Saturday each troop could go out and find a random Iraqi to kill, like a free pass to murder? ... Fun Fun Fun...

You could have made your point with resorting to this reply.

I realize that, I just wanted to draw attention to just how ridiculous it is to try and justify these types of things.

You have yet to to make changes to your comments.  You make statements with no credibility.  You make sh|t up to benefit your world view and anti-Americanism.  It's shameful.

What does any of this have to do with DHS?  Stay on topic rather than trying to avoid taking responsibility for your lies and deceipt.

SM

Manip wrote:



out180 wrote:  Guilt by association guys.  The lumping of US soldiers and US Army when discussing these acts is very reckless.  For every 1 bad one there's tens of thousands of very honorable men and women.  That's the cause of the image degradation, not the acts but the hasty generalization that takes place becuase of those acts.

Wrong.

Most incidents that occur involve more than one individual... And having lots of reported incidents all involving groups of people indicates that there is something wrong at the very core of the US armies training, recruitment or management.

No, it's still guilt by association.  It doesn't matter if it's a group of 20 people each in 100 reported incidents.  The manpower report for 2005 has over 1 million active, reserve and guardsmen in the US Army of which half are deployed.  Is it true that of the 1 million members of the US Army they are all are at their very core flawed due to mismanagement and lack of training from the Army, absolutely not.  It is true however that of that 1 million there are several capable of some very cruel and disgusting acts.  Is it the Army's fault, perhaps, but it is still wrong to judge the entire group of servicemen based on that assumption.

EDIT: Oh, and the 1 to tens of thousands comment was a statistical comparison and not a statement that one acted alone.

Edited again for grammar

Maybe it is somewhat guilt by association, but can you really blame me? You see SO little good, and so much bad from the US ground troops... And all the good you do see looks completely setup so its hard to know what to believe.

I have far more respect for the US Special Forces, Navy, and airforce.

SCMcDonnell wrote:

You have yet to to make changes to your comments.  You make statements with no credibility.  You make sh|t up to benefit your world view and anti-Americanism.  It's shameful.What does any of this have to do with DHS?  Stay on topic rather than trying to avoid taking responsibility for your lies and deceipt.SM

So to be not Anti-American, I have to cheer and clap and dance for the war crimes committed in the Name of America by the US Armed Forces, and say good job , like Pres. Bush is doing and saying.A young girl was raped and burned alive by those ba$tard$, and you talk about Anti-Americanism.

Shark_M wrote:

So to be not Anti-American, I have to cheer and clap and dance for the war crimes committed in the Name of America by the US Armed Forces, and say good job , like Pres. Bush is doing and saying.A young girl was raped and burned alive by those bas-tards, and you talk about Anti-Americanism.

See my Saturday "free murder pass" post above for how you have to act to be considered pro-American.

I was not trying to justify it.  If you read it again I even said "I am not saying it is not horrific, I am just saying that US service members are not the only ones to do it." I am not saying that because others do it it is alright, I am saying that in war these kinds of things happen.  It is probably due to the stress levels of people trying to kill you on a daily basis.  Again doesn't make it right.  I think your idea that the government must be behind it since these things are poping up like this is flawed.  we need to have a control to make these kind of assumptions, but there isn't much data on crimes commited in war time.  This is probably because the level of reporting has risen due to technology like staelite phones.

Manip wrote:



out180 wrote:  Manip wrote:  blindlizard wrote: The thing is that everyone is watching the US military through a microsope.  I would bet that (an no I haven't researched this it is just a gut feeling) if you looked at any military conflict in the history of the world you would find this same stuff happening.  I am not saying it is not horrific, I am just saying that US service members are not the only ones to do it.  The big difference is that the US government investigates and punishes them for it I guess that makes it ok then? ... Maybe the US army could increase rapes and murders and with it increase troop moral? ... Perhaps every Saturday each troop could go out and find a random Iraqi to kill, like a free pass to murder? ... Fun Fun Fun... You could have made your point with resorting to this reply.

I realize that, I just wanted to draw attention to just how ridiculous it is to try and justify these types of things.

Manip wrote:

Maybe it is somewhat guilt by association, but can you really blame me? You see SO little good, and so much bad from the US ground troops... And all the good you do see looks completely setup so its hard to know what to believe.

I have far more respect for the US Special Forces, Navy, and airforce.

Well good, I'm a Navy vet.

Nevertheless I do understand why you feel that way.  It is very true that the media tends to focus on the bad and rarely the good.  And I also agree that the good does tends to be a bit staged at times.  I get absolutely disgusted when I read about members of my military acting out like Abu and this current rape/murder.  It makes me sick to the very core because I loved my time in the service and have a very large amount of respect for them.  That's why I tend to get defensive.

Not only does it hurt the country and the world but it's a hit to the vets who honorably fought and not are looked down upon becuase of the idiots.

I don't want to derail but I strongly believe it is way past the time to get out of there.

blindlizard wrote:

  I think your idea that the government must be behind it since these things are poping up like this is flawed. 

I didn't mean to suggest that the US Government is behind the actions of the troops (except perhaps torture now and then). In general the US government is the one going to be taking most of the fire over this, they are the one left holding the ball after everyone else has ran off.

Giving the troops inadequate training, and selecting the wrong people to be in the army are both things the government has to address, but that is a far stretch from directly ordering or authorizing the troops to commit such monstrous acts.

Manip wrote:



blindlizard wrote:   ...

... 

Giving the troops inadequate training, and selecting the wrong people to be in the army are both things the government has to address, but that is a far stretch from directly ordering or authorizing the troops to commit such monstrous acts.

That is so very true.  There is, and has been for some time, a serious standards, or lack there of, issue in the ranks.  Ignorance begets disaster.

Yeah, i agree.  I think a lot of it stems from the time inservice aspect to gaining rank, and how hard it is to demote someone that is incompetent.  When I was in the Airforce and stationed at my first assignment, we had a Staff Sargent that was incompetent.  Our shop worked on heavy enquipment and this guy was cluelss.  Not to mention he was always on the fatboy program and just looked like crap.  But, because he was in for 12 years or something like that he was a staff sargent, which ment he could tell us all what to do.  (except for the tech sargent that ran the shop).  if we were in a battel situation, I gurantee he would have gotten us killed. I am sure the Army has problems like this which lead to people given bad (or no commands) that can lead to bad things happening. 

out180 wrote:



Manip wrote:  blindlizard wrote:   ...  ...  Giving the troops inadequate training, and selecting the wrong people to be in the army are both things the government has to address, but that is a far stretch from directly ordering or authorizing the troops to commit such monstrous acts.

That is so very true.  There is, and has been for some time, a serious standards, or lack there of, issue in the ranks.  Ignorance begets disaster.

Shark_M wrote:



SCMcDonnell wrote: You have yet to to make changes to your comments.  You make statements with no credibility.  You make sh|t up to benefit your world view and anti-Americanism.  It's shameful.What does any of this have to do with DHS?  Stay on topic rather than trying to avoid taking responsibility for your lies and deceipt.SM

So to be not Anti-American, I have to cheer and clap and dance for the war crimes committed in the Name of America by the US Armed Forces, and say good job , like Pres. Bush is doing and saying.A young girl was raped and burned alive by those ba$tard$, and you talk about Anti-Americanism.

Again, you're missing the point.  I am not defining what is "American" but you need to tell the truth about the article and what it says.  Yes, a young girl was raped and the people who did that deserve death.  However, you have made false statements regarding the content of the article to fit what you HOPE the outcome of nothing but an "investigation."  It's not smart and shows lack of credibility in anything you say.

SM

Manip wrote:



out180 wrote:  Guilt by association guys.  The lumping of US soldiers and US Army when discussing these acts is very reckless.  For every 1 bad one there's tens of thousands of very honorable men and women.  That's the cause of the image degradation, not the acts but the hasty generalization that takes place becuase of those acts.

Wrong.

Most incidents that occur involve more than one individual... And having lots of reported incidents all involving groups of people indicates that there is something wrong at the very core of the US armies training, recruitment or management.

Not neccessarily.  Most of these soldiers are 19-25, and try as you might, I guarantee that you could never put together a group of perfectly behaved 19-25 year olds.  This is not an excuse, but I don't think that the rank and file soldier is taught to treat civilians with disrespect. 

Problem is, peer pressure (a bunch of guys with guns, hooah) and the sheer statistical probability of psychotic behavior in this age group leads to these events.  We may like to think of them as perfect (or imperfect), but it's probably somewhere in between. 

How many english soccer matches end in brawls?  The same mindset exists amongst some of these soldiers.  Most, however, aren't like this.

SCMcDonnell wrote:



Shark_M wrote:  SCMcDonnell wrote: You have yet to to make changes to your comments.  You make statements with no credibility.  You make sh|t up to benefit your world view and anti-Americanism.  It's shameful.What does any of this have to do with DHS?  Stay on topic rather than trying to avoid taking responsibility for your lies and deceipt.SM So to be not Anti-American, I have to cheer and clap and dance for the war crimes committed in the Name of America by the US Armed Forces, and say good job , like Pres. Bush is doing and saying.A young girl was raped and burned alive by those ba$tard$, and you talk about Anti-Americanism.

Again, you're missing the point.  I am not defining what is "American" but you need to tell the truth about the article and what it says.  Yes, a young girl was raped and the people who did that deserve death.  However, you have made false statements regarding the content of the article to fit what you HOPE the outcome of nothing but an "investigation."  It's not smart and shows lack of credibility in anything you say.

SM

Yeah, you're right on with this.  The linked article clearly states it's an investigation but the parent leads us to believe that 5 ppl were charged.  It's sensationalism and a red herring twisted into a mutated mess.

SCMcDonnell wrote:



Shark_M wrote: SCMcDonnell wrote: You have yet to to make changes to your comments.  You make statements with no credibility.  You make sh|t up to benefit your world view and anti-Americanism.  It's shameful.What does any of this have to do with DHS?  Stay on topic rather than trying to avoid taking responsibility for your lies and deceipt.SM So to be not Anti-American, I have to cheer and clap and dance for the war crimes committed in the Name of America by the US Armed Forces, and say good job , like Pres. Bush is doing and saying.A young girl was raped and burned alive by those ba$tard$, and you talk about Anti-Americanism.

Again, you're missing the point.  I am not defining what is "American" but you need to tell the truth about the article and what it says.  Yes, a young girl was raped and the people who did that deserve death.  However, you have made false statements regarding the content of the article to fit what you HOPE the outcome of nothing but an "investigation."  It's not smart and shows lack of credibility in anything you say.

SM

What makes you think that I HOPE that things trun out like you say? To HOPE is to imply I have some kind of beef with US Armed Forces and wish them failure! But this is not true. The evidence is strong, and the military does not prosecute anyone without strong evidence. Now the Iraqi people gave interviews on tv, about their testimony as to what happened, and they are not 1 or 2 they are 13 + people who lived in the area and witnessed what happened. Just like what happened in Haditha, the surviver said it all.

So a war crime HAS been committed, and it is Highly probable that the US Forces involved are guilty of this crime. The Trials are only a way to formalize things. But nonetheless, a crime has been comitted and a girl died in Cold Blood at the hands and guns of those barbaric savages.

What else can one imply when you deliberately misquote an article to make it look like soldiers have been charged and convicted of a crime that is only in the investigation phase - just like Haditha?

Again, I am calling you out on your false statements and you have yet to recognize the ignorance in those statements.

SM

Shark_M wrote:



SCMcDonnell wrote:  Shark_M wrote:  SCMcDonnell wrote: ... ... ...

... 

So a war crime HAS been committed, and it is Highly probable that the US Forces involved are guilty of this crime. The Trials are only a way to formalize things. But nonetheless, a crime has been comitted and a girl died in Cold Blood at the hands and guns of those barbaric savages.

A better way to put that would be.

rephrase wrote:

But nonetheless, a crime has been comitted and a girl died in Cold Blood at the hands and guns of the barbaric savage(s) that have yet to be positively identified.

The point I believe is trying to be made, if I may, is that your article and responses are taking a tone of "it must be true because it hasn't been proved false."

If it is in fact servicemen who comitted this crime I hope they fry their asses.  It is however speculation at this point to assume they are in fact guilty and a bit reckless to lead the thread in that direction as you did with the parent post.  That however is just my opinion.