Vista late in Europe?

It looks like Vista *may* be delayed in Europe.

Microsoft wrote:

Microsoft raised the possibility on Thursday that it might delay the introduction of its new Vista Windows operating system in Europe, saying it depended on the European Commission's antitrust requirements.

EU wrote:

The European Commission responded sharply, saying it was "misleading to imply that the Commission could be the cause of delays in launching Vista in Europe."

So what do we think? The EU getting their just deserts? Or Microsoft threatening to take their ball home?

Either way it is the general public that would suffer as a result.

All this stuff that EU is doing, is already one big joke.
I wouldn't be suprised if EU got it delayed.

Chadk wrote:



All this stuff that EU is doing, is already one big joke.
I wouldn't be suprised if EU got it delayed.

How is what a "big joke"?

With how ridiculous some of their demands are, it wouldn't surprise me if MSFT had to delay to cover themselves in a legal sense.

jaylittle wrote:

Lets start with every version of Windows whose name ends with the letter N.  What worthless stupid thing to make MS do.

Microsoft chose to do that, there were alternatives to providing the same version of Windows at the same price, with an off-putting name.

jaylittle wrote:

Nothing is stopping any OEM from installing their own Media Player or even a competing OS from installing a Media Player as well (which they all do).

Actually, there is. Microsoft has strict rules they make OEMs abide by. Which includes not altering the OOB configuration (at least that's as much as I've heard)

jaylittle wrote:

If consumers don't want Windows Media Player - then either uninstall it after buying the OS or simply don't buy the OS at all.  It's really that simple.  The EU in their grand mission of idiocy decided along the way that they were better suited towards dictating what MS could and could not include in their product or had to make optional.

You can't uninstall WMP from Windows XP. And the European court recognised Microsoft has a de-facto monopoly over desktop operating systems. "If you don't want WMP, don't buy Windows" sounds fine initially, but then how are you going to get anything done?

jaylittle wrote:

The problem here is that the EU is the one pushing this agenda, not the people the EU represents.  So in the end the people loose while the EU can continue to make a fool of itself over the issue all while coming up with yet another reason to fine MS for something thereby securing a great form of revenue for themselves.

The revenue they're getting from Microsoft isn't much compared to the amount each state in the EU pays, I doubt the "we get money" was a major factor (if one at all) when they thought up disciplinary action.

The european parliament, by trying to play an important role and celebrating their authority, make completely stupid judgements which in the end will help no one, especially not the european citizens. As I live in the eu it would completely piss me off if vista would be delayed because of their silly restrictions. I don't want no windows stripped off mediaplayer and everything else and I don't think that something like this would be useful to any customer. I can't see why it Microsoft's fault that their competitors completely suck in any possible way. I can install some (I need to watch my language) software like the realplayer even with windows media player installed. With all the new features in vista the eu polticians will go crazy. I can already image they go "too many features, what about the competitors, why is this not such a prehistoric software like our linux system, microsoft has to sell a command line only version or we will sue them for big money, etc."Will that help me as a customer? No and absolutely not.And as I also work as a software developer I can say the following: Microsoft does more for the developers to build good software applications than any other company in the world. So what will new eu restrictions help me as a software developer except from delaying vista and not being able to keep up to date? Nothing. Those people who are making the eu decisions against Microsoft don't even help themselves. Their work ist completey useless and proves nothing but their own brain damage.

hordak3000 wrote:

I don't want no windows stripped off mediaplayer and everything else and I don't think that something like this would be useful to any customer.

You claim you don't think, perhaps you don't know. I can think of at least a few corporate environments that could do without WMP if it meant they saved on licensing costs.

hordak3000 wrote:

I can't see why it Microsoft's fault that their competitors completely suck in any possible way.

Logical fallacy, this is no bearing on the court judgement or the results.

And you're saying Quicktime/iTunes/iPod "sucks in [every] possible way" compared to WMA/WMP/Zune?

hordak3000 wrote:

I can install some (I need to watch my language) software like the realplayer even with windows media player installed.

Believe it or not, but there are more media-players in the world besides Real and WMP, what about:

• Quicktime
• BSPlayer
• MediaPlayer Classic
• WMP6.4
• DivX Player
• VLC
• Winamp
• iTunes Videos
• ...and those are just ones I can count off the top of my head.

hordak3000 wrote:

With all the new features in vista the eu polticians will go crazy. I can already image they go "too many features, what about the competitors, why is this not such a prehistoric software like our linux system, microsoft has to sell a command line only version or we will sue them for big money, etc.

New consumer "product" features in Vista? Whatever.

But I recognise having a media player in an OS distro is essential nowadays, and that the EU were being a bit boneheaded on this descision, they're not going to fine Microsoft for Aero since it puts SphereXP out of business.

And you're wrong about Linux, check out the latest Ubuntu and Fedora releases, they've got more features (and a 3D windowing system to boot) than Vista, not to mention bundled programs. Tell me how PBrush compares to GIMP. They're far from "prehistoric".

And FYI, Microsoft is releasing a command-line version of Windows. Check it out (search for "Core")

hordak3000 wrote:

"Will that help me as a customer? No and absolutely not.

True, it doesn't help the consumer, but it's the principle.

hordak3000 wrote:

And as I also work as a software developer I can say the following: Microsoft does more for the developers to build good software applications than any other company in the world.

I'm sure the Apple guys would disagree with you on that one.

hordak3000 wrote:

So what will new eu restrictions help me as a software developer except from delaying vista and not being able to keep up to date? Nothing. Those people who are making the eu decisions against Microsoft don't even help themselves. Their work ist completey useless and proves nothing but their own brain damage.

You're following an unproved hypthesis about the EU delaying the release of Vista, having been refuted by the EU Courts already. Microsoft was just taking an easy jab at them.

W3bbo wrote:


Actually, there is. Microsoft has strict rules they make OEMs abide by. Which includes not altering the OOB configuration (at least that's as much as I've heard)

Why is there a FAQ item about installing additional 3rd party applications while preinstalling on oem.microsoft.com then? To show you what you aren't allowed to do?

erik_ wrote:



W3bbo wrote: Actually, there is. Microsoft has strict rules they make OEMs abide by. Which includes not altering the OOB configuration (at least that's as much as I've heard)

Why is there a FAQ item about installing additional 3rd party applications while preinstalling on oem.microsoft.com then? To show you what you aren't allowed to do?

It wasn't that, it was about pre-installing Windows and changing things like the default browser, media player, and visual style.

jaylittle wrote:



W3bbo wrote:It wasn't that, it was about pre-installing Windows and changing things like the default browser, media player, and visual style.

Errr.... you can change all of that in a preinstallation and have been able to for sometime.

I know you can, but Microsoft isn't happy for their major OEMs to do that.

And don't say it doesn't happen. (Dated 2001, I know, but it's just a quick example)

W3bbo wrote:



jaylittle wrote: Nothing is stopping any OEM from installing their own Media Player or even a competing OS from installing a Media Player as well (which they all do).

Actually, there is. Microsoft has strict rules they make OEMs abide by. Which includes not altering the OOB configuration (at least that's as much as I've heard)

The last few times I saw OEM preconfigured machines (usually when somebody else buys them and I help them set them up) they came with the full deck of cards: WMP, Quicktime, Real, WinAMP, you name it. I don't remember which was the default.

W3bbo wrote:

Actually, there is. Microsoft has strict rules they make OEMs abide by. Which includes not altering the OOB configuration (at least that's as much as I've heard)

W3bbo, have you ever bought a PC? There is so much crapware on there including media players, browsers and IM clients it isnt funny.

W3bbo wrote:

I know you can, but Microsoft isn't happy for their major OEMs to do that.

So? What could Microsoft do? Stomp their feet and cry?

W3bbo wrote:

And don't say it doesn't happen. (Dated 2001, I know, but it's just a quick example)

C'mon, W3bbo, you can do better than that...

W3bbo wrote:



hordak3000 wrote: I don't want no windows stripped off mediaplayer and everything else and I don't think that something like this would be useful to any customer.

You claim you don't think, perhaps you don't know. I can think of at least a few corporate environments that could do without WMP if it meant they saved on licensing costs.

I don't care paying money for good software. I don't see why everyone thinks everything has to be very cheap just because it's software.

And especially corparate environments pay so much money for "the good support" to companies like redhat, sun or ibm that saving a few bucks for a windows without media player would not make much of a difference.
I would rather say the media player so far was a free addon.

But I wouldn't go to a car vendor as well and get them put the steering wheel and seats out to get the car cheaper. Or maybe requesting an open source car free of charge.

W3bbo wrote:



hordak3000 wrote: I can't see why it Microsoft's fault that their competitors completely suck in any possible way.

Logical fallacy, this is no bearing on the court judgement or the results.

And you're saying Quicktime/iTunes/iPod "sucks in [every] possible way" compared to WMA/WMP/Zune?

I'm just saying let the customers decide which software they wanna use. It sucks if you have to start downloading all that crap because you don't have anything out of the box with your operating system. I don't think that's in the interest of the customer.

I, personally don't like Quicktime (it can't even do movies fullscreen unless you buy the pro version) and itunes as well gives me the creeps.
I don't like the ipod as well because I hate being bound to to itunes for using it.
But that goes for Zune as well, I guess.

Although the ipod is a good example that the customer can decide very well what he likes without being patronised by the eu.

W3bbo wrote:



hordak3000 wrote: I can install some (I need to watch my language) software like the realplayer even with windows media player installed.

Believe it or not, but there are more media-players in the world besides Real and WMP, what about:

• Quicktime
• BSPlayer
• MediaPlayer Classic
• WMP6.4
• DivX Player
• VLC
• Winamp
• iTunes Videos
• ...and those are just ones I can count off the top of my head.

Of course there are. But does Microsoft keep me from installing those if I think Windows Media Player is not enough for me? I think not. So what good are the eu decisions here?

W3bbo wrote:



hordak3000 wrote: With all the new features in vista the eu polticians will go crazy. I can already image they go "too many features, what about the competitors, why is this not such a prehistoric software like our linux system, microsoft has to sell a command line only version or we will sue them for big money, etc.

[quote user="W3bbo"]

New consumer "product" features in Vista? Whatever.

But I recognise having a media player in an OS distro is essential nowadays, and that the EU were being a bit boneheaded on this descision, they're not going to fine Microsoft for Aero since it puts SphereXP out of business.

And you're wrong about Linux, check out the latest Ubuntu and Fedora releases, they've got more features (and a 3D windowing system to boot) than Vista, not to mention bundled programs. Tell me how PBrush compares to GIMP. They're far from "prehistoric".

I use Ubuntu myself from time to time and redhat linux at work besides Windows. Gnome and KDE are nice but they are far behind Vista. Not only do they show a lack in concept, their performance is also far from satisfying.

As for the software that comes with Ubuntu, it is right, they have a lot useful of useful tools bundled there. And PBrush. Well, maybe that's something Microsoft has forgotten. But at least no one will sue them for having an image editing software bundled with their operating system.

W3bbo wrote:



And FYI, Microsoft is releasing a command-line version of Windows. Check it out (search for "Core")

Ok, I know. But that's a server product. I was thinking more of the windows for the masses.

W3bbo wrote:



hordak3000 wrote: "Will that help me as a customer? No and absolutely not.

True, it doesn't help the consumer, but it's the principle.

It's the principle, but I think the european politicians should draw their attention to more urgent matters than trying to prove a point no one benefits from.

W3bbo wrote:



hordak3000 wrote: And as I also work as a software developer I can say the following: Microsoft does more for the developers to build good software applications than any other company in the world.

I'm sure the Apple guys would disagree with you on that one.

Apple really does a good job there. But having to port their software for the intel platform, if the apple developers would really say that apple is doing more than microsoft then they should have a look at what microsoft has to offer.

W3bbo wrote:



hordak3000 wrote: So what will new eu restrictions help me as a software developer except from delaying vista and not being able to keep up to date? Nothing. Those people who are making the eu decisions against Microsoft don't even help themselves. Their work ist completey useless and proves nothing but their own brain damage.

You're following an unproved hypthesis about the EU delaying the release of Vista, having been refuted by the EU Courts already. Microsoft was just taking an easy jab at them.

That may be true. But it's the least microsoft should do against those boneheaded fools.

W3bbo wrote:



erik_ wrote:  W3bbo wrote:  Actually, there is. Microsoft has strict rules they make OEMs abide by. Which includes not altering the OOB configuration (at least that's as much as I've heard) Why is there a FAQ item about installing additional 3rd party applications while preinstalling on oem.microsoft.com then? To show you what you aren't allowed to do?

It wasn't that, it was about pre-installing Windows and changing things like the default browser, media player, and visual style.

Speaking of which, imagine if Microsoft ships windows without a browser, LOL. Try downloading Firefox without IE.

zhuo wrote:



W3bbo wrote:  erik_ wrote:  W3bbo wrote:  Actually, there is. Microsoft has strict rules they make OEMs abide by. Which includes not altering the OOB configuration (at least that's as much as I've heard) Why is there a FAQ item about installing additional 3rd party applications while preinstalling on oem.microsoft.com then? To show you what you aren't allowed to do? It wasn't that, it was about pre-installing Windows and changing things like the default browser, media player, and visual style.

Speaking of which, imagine if Microsoft ships windows without a browser, LOL. Try downloading Firefox without IE.

Start/Execute/Paste

http://download.mozilla.org/?product=firefox-1.5.0.6&os=win&lang=en

<enter>

I didn't find that too hard

PaoloM wrote:



W3bbo wrote:And don't say it doesn't happen. (Dated 2001, I know, but it's just a quick example)

C'mon, W3bbo, you can do better than that...

Well, you know, there is the whole threatening OEMs thing to ensure they didn't ship any other OS with their hardware, hence the Be Inc. lawsuit.

Of course we can be fairly confident that this doesn't happen any more as plenty (well, a few) companies ship Linux on some of their hardware as well as Windows.

Part of the problem, at least IMHO, is that Microsoft is fighting the reputation it made for itself in the past and that it is convincing the EU that is the hard part, particularly when Microsoft does things like deliberately name products so that they are unappealing when there is just one or two missing features, or threatening to delay the launch in a childish way ...