Contractors taking a day off?

This questions for any contractors/freelancers or anyone that employs them.

Basically if you employ a contractor is it a big deal if they ask for days off here and there? I mean as long as they arnt taking liberties, does it bother you as your not going to be paying them for the time off. 

I've just had a week off work and thats cost me a weeks wages and also saved my client a weeks wages so really I dont see the problem, even contractors have to have holidays. I'm taking a day off to go on a course next month and as the client doent pay for any training I'm sure they understand I need to do this when I can. 

When I didnt renew my last contract, they basically said well you have had x amounts of days off can you make this up? I basically said that all days off were unpaid and no per hour or per day contract says you have to provide a minimum amount of days or hours within the contract period.

Just wondered what employers think and what attitude contractors take with this?

leeappdalecom wrote:

Basically if you employ a contractor is it a big deal if they ask for days off here and there? I mean as long as they arnt taking liberties, does it bother you as your not going to be paying them for the time off.

It shouldn't be. I typically tell my customers my availability and they are okay with it.  If there is a specific reason why I need to be there a particular day then I negotiate it. I certainly have more flexibility than a permanent member of staff.

leeappdalecom wrote:


When I didnt renew my last contract, they basically said well you have had x amounts of days off can you make this up? I basically said that all days off were unpaid and no per hour or per day contract says you have to provide a minimum amount of days or hours within the contract period.

Just sounds like they wanted 3/6 months of you time, and when you didn't want to renew they just wanted you to work the time you weren't there so that they'd have the length of time they required.  TBH if I take more than a couple of days off on a contract then I tend to work them (paid of course) at the end, so that they have had 3/6 months or whatever of my time.

A contractor does not need permission to take a day off or even a week off. This is the law not an opinion. Employers usually like contractors because they can avoid employment laws, taxes, insurance and benefits. But then they try to treat a contractor as if they are an employee and many contractors believe that if they speak up they will lose thier contract. Not so.

A contractor has the following protections:

1. A company MAY NOT tell you that you must work X number of hours per week or that you MUST be at a location a certain time EVERY day. They can say you must be a meeting etc. They can say the office is off-limits during certain hours, but they can't force you to be there during those hours.

2. A company MAY NOT interfere with your business. This means thay can't stop you from taking company phone calls or having to go meet with another client or even from working multiple contracts at the same time. They can't stop you from having to run payroll (I have employees) and they can't stop you from reading your company email)

3. A company can not dictate your holiday schedule

4. A company can not force you to "clock in" and "clock out". The law says that your billing time starts the SECOND you step on thier property and ends when you LEAVE. You at your discression have the ability to bill as you like, but you are protected here. Liability insurance only covers you when you are working, contracts require liability insurance when on site. Don't let them tell you otherwise.

5. YOU are NOT thier employee. They are NOT your boss. They control the project an nothing else. You are the boss of you. You are being judged on results not on hours. If this is not true then the company is violating the law.

If a company does take retalative moves on you for enforsing the law, you have the right to sue. And trust me, from experience, you will win.

When it comes to contractor - client relations, I don't play games. They know it and they don't mess with me. But you have to stand your ground and not be wishy washy or they will tear you up. Consulting is a nasty industry on both sides. Be the shark or be the fish. Your choice.

FDB

He's in the UK. I'm not sure that the laws we have in the USA are similar there. I suspect that they are not too far apart.

In the USA, contractors are totally independent, and if any "you work here" or "you work on this PC" or "you must be here 8-5" is foisted as conditions of work, then the employer has hired you de facto and is responsible for paying your taxes, etc...

Most contractors do not enforce these rights simply to accomodate their clients. But no contractor will hesitate to make their own schedule, especially when it regards industry learning and events.

As Fluffy would probably say "Get Everything In Writing".

My .02

FluffyDevilBunny wrote:

A contractor does not need permission to take a day off or even a week off. This is the law not an opinion. Employers usually like contractors because they can avoid employment laws, taxes, insurance and benefits. But then they try to treat a contractor as if they are an employee and many contractors believe that if they speak up they will lose thier contract. Not so.

A contractor has the following protections:

1. A company MAY NOT tell you that you must work X number of hours per week or that you MUST be at a location a certain time EVERY day. They can say you must be a meeting etc. They can say the office is off-limits during certain hours, but they can't force you to be there during those hours.

2. A company MAY NOT interfere with your business. This means thay can't stop you from taking company phone calls or having to go meet with another client or even from working multiple contracts at the same time. They can't stop you from having to run payroll (I have employees) and they can't stop you from reading your company email)

3. A company can not dictate your holiday schedule

4. A company can not force you to "clock in" and "clock out". The law says that your billing time starts the SECOND you step on thier property and ends when you LEAVE. You at your discression have the ability to bill as you like, but you are protected here. Liability insurance only covers you when you are working, contracts require liability insurance when on site. Don't let them tell you otherwise.

5. YOU are NOT thier employee. They are NOT your boss. They control the project an nothing else. You are the boss of you. You are being judged on results not on hours. If this is not true then the company is violating the law.

If a company does take retalative moves on you for enforsing the law, you have the right to sue. And trust me, from experience, you will win.

When it comes to contractor - client relations, I don't play games. They know it and they don't mess with me. But you have to stand your ground and not be wishy washy or they will tear you up. Consulting is a nasty industry on both sides. Be the shark or be the fish. Your choice.

FDB

Any references on these items? Not that I don't believe you (it sounds right), but I'd like to see this in other places, besides comments on a Microsoft Blog site.

Jack Poison wrote:

Any references on these items? Not that I don't believe you (it sounds right), but I'd like to see this in other places, besides comments on a Microsoft Blog site.

Independent Contractors vs. Employees

Who is an independent contractor

Distinguishing Between Self-Employed Individuals and Independent Contractors

Your Rights as an Independent Contractor

When is a contractor not a contractor? (UK law)

Working for Yourself: Law and Taxes for Independent Contractors, Freelancers & Consultants (Paperback)

Independent Contractor vs Employee

Division of Labor Standards Enforsement

Plus you should always always always always have a lawyer if you are in business for yourself. It's not as expensive as you may think. Paying a lawyer a few hundred dollars to get everything set for smooth sailing costs less than your time trying to do it on your own.

FDB

PS. My posting before makes me sound like an ARSE. But I rarely have a dispute to deal with and normally I let lawyers work that out.

Muchos Gracias.

Thanks for your responses...

Yes I am in the UK much of what FluffyDevilBunny wrote pretty much describes someone who is Self Employed here in the UK however the line between Self Employed and Employed according to Inland Revenue is somewhat blurred, In fact you can be seen as an employee by them if they decide you dont meet their criteria.

Tax reasons aside I think if you told what FluffyDevilBunny wrote to a UK employer then you wouldnt get much work I think, I suppose it's right and yes I can take a day off when I want but that risks my contract with the client and my chance of getting an extension and most employers wont like you working for other clients at the same time.

Having said that it's a must to be seen as Self Employed and working for multiple clients through your own company and having some finacial risk goes along way to making sure you not seen as an Employee by the tax man and subsequently incurring hefty tax on you income.

Sometimes I think I'm too nice and sometimes I wonder if I'm taking liberties, but I suppose as long as I'm doing the best I can with my project then what reason have they to complain?

leeappdalecom wrote:



This questions for any contractors/freelancers or anyone that employs them.

Basically if you employ a contractor is it a big deal if they ask for days off here and there? I mean as long as they arnt taking liberties, does it bother you as your not going to be paying them for the time off. 

I've just had a week off work and thats cost me a weeks wages and also saved my client a weeks wages so really I dont see the problem, even contractors have to have holidays. I'm taking a day off to go on a course next month and as the client doent pay for any training I'm sure they understand I need to do this when I can. 

When I didnt renew my last contract, they basically said well you have had x amounts of days off can you make this up? I basically said that all days off were unpaid and no per hour or per day contract says you have to provide a minimum amount of days or hours within the contract period.

Just wondered what employers think and what attitude contractors take with this?

Being a contractor, I don't see a problem with taking a day off here and there. In fact, I just bought a house, which made it necessary to take several days off here and there to complete the transaction, move and arrange for phone, alarm and other services to be installed.

Haveing said that, you should be sensitive as to when you take your days off in relation to your project. If you are on a critical deadline and the team is behind, it's probably not a good idea to take off for a week in Vegas. I have a rule for my team; no vacations during UAT1, UAT2 or deployment. Before (again, assuming we are on schedule) and after, do what you want. I make very few exceptions for this rule, pretty much death in the family, new baby (yours) and court date/jury duty are the only ones that get a pass.

As far as what happened when you choose not to renew your contract, I'm on your side. There are a lot of clients who don't understand how to work with a contractor. I had one client from hell. This guy was a jerk, thought he knew everything and would contantly chagne what he wanted while wondering why the application never got completed! I worked on his sh1t-stain of a project for a year and a half. FINALLY we deployed. He didn't need me full time, but said he would need little things here and there for a while. I told him that if he didn't engage me full time, I was going to have to seek another project that did. He gave me this "yeah, yeah" crap. I made a point to not sign a contract for a comitted number of hours, just a bill rate for the hours I choose to work. Well, before long I had another full-time gig. He called me the day before I was to leave for Christmas vacation, and wanted me to post pone my trip to come fix something in the application. He had given me an incorrect formula and wanted it changed. I explained to him that I was not available till after the first of the year, and he went ballistic. At that point, I told him that it was probably best that we end our arraingment and go our seperate ways. He was pissed. He hired another contractor (God have mercy on that poor guys soul) and then sent me a nasty letter about how he had to train this person, and I should have to compensate him for that expense. He also had this guy go through my code to find mistakes, with the premise that he was going to sue me. That was about six years ago, and I haven't been served with papers yet, so I'm guess that there were no mistakes.

FluffyDevilBunny wrote:

1. A company MAY NOT tell you that you must work X number of hours per week or that you MUST be at a location a certain time EVERY day. They can say you must be a meeting etc. They can say the office is off-limits during certain hours, but they can't force you to be there during those hours.

I don't know that that's entirely true.

Several goverment contracts I've seen specify that the working day is 8:00 AM to 5:00PM. This is because goverments are control freaks, but also because most government employees are in a union, and the union dictates their schedules.

Also, several private sector companies may not be that strick, but will say something to the effect of "you make your own hour, BUT you are expeted to AT LEAST be here between 10:00 AM and 3:00 PM." I don't think that's unreasonable.

FluffyDevilBunny wrote:

2. A company MAY NOT interfere with your business. This means thay can't stop you from taking company phone calls or having to go meet with another client or even from working multiple contracts at the same time. They can't stop you from having to run payroll (I have employees) and they can't stop you from reading your company email)

But, you can't bill them for this time either. Generally, you are also not permitted to use a clients resources for these activites.

FluffyDevilBunny wrote:

4. A company can not force you to "clock in" and "clock out". The law says that your billing time starts the SECOND you step on thier property and ends when you LEAVE.

But, they can ask you to verify your hours for billing. They don't want to get ripped off either.

FluffyDevilBunny wrote:

5. YOU are NOT thier employee. They are NOT your boss. They control the project an nothing else. You are the boss of you. You are being judged on results not on hours. If this is not true then the company is violating the law.

If you are "time and materials," you are being judged on your hours. Don't kid yourself. And it's not illegal.

jb43081 wrote:

Several goverment contracts I've seen specify that the working day is 8:00 AM to 5:00PM. This is because goverments are control freaks, but also because most government employees are in a union, and the union dictates their schedules.

This is a contract thing. Government contracts place stipulations in writing that both parties agree to up front. These are negotiable in many situations and not in some. The union has nothing to do with the contractor. Contract law and Employment law should not be confused with one another.

jb43081 wrote:

Also, several private sector companies may not be that strick, but will say something to the effect of "you make your own hour, BUT you are expeted to AT LEAST be here between 10:00 AM and 3:00 PM." I don't think that's unreasonable.

No it is unreasonable. The law SPECIFICALLY says that you can not control HOW, WHERE or WHEN I do my work. My company enforses that. If I client needs us to be on site due to security or some other reason it is placed in our contract, but at no time can the client REQUIRE us to be there. Again we DO NOT work for them. The reason most of the clients have gotten out of control is because people are letting them. In our 13 year history we have only had to sue one client over this.

jb43081 wrote:

But, you can't bill them for this time either. Generally, you are also not permitted to use a clients resources for these activites.[/qoute]

That is correct. Billing your client for work not provided to them is fraud.

[quote user="jb43081"]But, they can ask you to verify your hours for billing. They don't want to get ripped off either.

Actually you are suppose to give them an invoice but they are not allowed to use a means to track your hours the way that an employer tracks his employees. We just went through this with a client. Once the legal department of the client found out, the time tracking was stopped immediately for all contractors at the client.

jb43081 wrote:

If you are "time and materials," you are being judged on your hours. Don't kid yourself. And it's not illegal.

Actually you are being judged on your results. Results also take into account how long it takes to produce them, hense the hours. The law states that the can't judge you on if you were there 8 hours a day.

The bottom line is get a lawyer. Do not listen to peoples advice it only gets you in trouble. A lawyer will give you the correct information and you may be shocked to find out how much people really don't know about thier own business.

FDB

FluffyDevilBunny wrote:



jb43081 wrote: Several goverment contracts I've seen specify that the working day is 8:00 AM to 5:00PM. This is because goverments are control freaks, but also because most government employees are in a union, and the union dictates their schedules.

This is a contract thing. Government contracts place stipulations in writing that both parties agree to up front. These are negotiable in many situations and not in some. The union has nothing to do with the contractor. Contract law and Employment law should not be confused with one another.

No, what I'm saying is that they want you there the same time as their people so that the team can work together.

FluffyDevilBunny wrote:



jb43081 wrote: Also, several private sector companies may not be that strick, but will say something to the effect of "you make your own hour, BUT you are expeted to AT LEAST be here between 10:00 AM and 3:00 PM." I don't think that's unreasonable.

No it is unreasonable. The law SPECIFICALLY says that you can not control HOW, WHERE or WHEN I do my work. My company enforses that. If I client needs us to be on site due to security or some other reason it is placed in our contract, but at no time can the client REQUIRE us to be there. Again we DO NOT work for them. The reason most of the clients have gotten out of control is because people are letting them. In our 13 year history we have only had to sue one client over this.

But a client CAN make it part of the deal that you will do it how, where and when they say. I know you have sources, but I question the leaglity of restricting this on the whole since it doesn't make much sense to the client to not be able to set parameters.

FluffyDevilBunny wrote:



jb43081 wrote: But, you can't bill them for this time either. Generally, you are also not permitted to use a clients resources for these activites.[/qoute] That is correct. Billing your client for work not provided to them is fraud. [quote user="jb43081"]But, they can ask you to verify your hours for billing. They don't want to get ripped off either.

Actually you are suppose to give them an invoice but they are not allowed to use a means to track your hours the way that an employer tracks his employees. We just went through this with a client. Once the legal department of the client found out, the time tracking was stopped immediately for all contractors at the client.

Again, and I know you've got sources, but this seems off. I don't feel it's unreasonable for a client, especially a T&M client to want some kind of verification. Too many bad contractors out there are taking advantage of this and clients have become very "suspect" of contractors and everything we do. At somepoint, you have to allow the client a little control, otherwise they may go off contractors altogether.

FluffyDevilBunny wrote:



jb43081 wrote: If you are "time and materials," you are being judged on your hours. Don't kid yourself. And it's not illegal.

Actually you are being judged on your results. Results also take into account how long it takes to produce them, hense the hours. The law states that the can't judge you on if you were there 8 hours a day.

True. But, they can judge you if you say you bill for eight hours, but weren't there for eight hours. But then, according to you, they have no power to prove you weren't. So, it makes me wonder why since the deck is so stacked agains the client, why they would use contractors

FluffyDevilBunny wrote:

The bottom line is get a lawyer. Do not listen to peoples advice it only gets you in trouble. A lawyer will give you the correct information and you may be shocked to find out how much people really don't know about thier own business.

Ultimatly you can either be a mercenary or a partner. Mercenaries are tolerated to the point that they can provide things a partner cannot. But once a mercenary has past that point, they generally are out. Partners help their clients by being responsive and working WITH the client to ensure a good relationship based on trust and understanding. Partners will get a first look on RFP's before mercenaries, even if their bill rates are higher because the client knows that they are not going to be a "hassel" and are dedicated to a projects sucess, not just protecting every single little right they have, even if they risk no injury by "giving a little." Partners generally get the "big" positions on the "big" projects. Mercenaries are generally given a position only high enough to complete their narrowly defined task. Partners eventually get direct access to the high-leve decision makers. Mercenaries, while it's not unheard of... eh, not so much.

I agree, have a lawyer and do NOT allow yourself to be taken advantage of. But, at the end of the day, the contractors that provide more value than headaches get called back for the good, cool, sexy, high-dollar projects.

Just my $0.02 (but then, I have been doing this for a while...)

Yes! Your points are valid. I am in no way saying that you shouldn't work with your clients. What I have been trying to point out is that they just don't control you.

A contractor/consultant still needs to make the client happy. This means that you do need to show up to work and do your job. It means you don't bill them for work you didn't do, after all you are running a business. But it doesn't mean that you have to feel guilty or worry if you need to take a day off or are sick.

If I turn the table and think as a client, I obviously don't want a contractor for my full time project that only works two days a week. But if the contractor needs to take time off for some reason, I can't say no.

There needs to be communication with the client and the ability to reach amicable (I know spelling) agreements made on things. But I do believe that if either party starts to act in a role that is inappropriate the relationship will fail.

On another point, the law is designed to protect us and to insure the IRS gets thier due, probably not in that order. It doesn't mean that I can't ignore a rule to accomadate a client. But you still should know your rights.

That saying we have had a very long history of happy clients. We don't go in marching saying "You can't make me do that". We talk it out and come to agreements and sometimes you have to bite the bullet, sometimes you win. Many times we even work hours we don't bill for. It's only when a situation gets out of control with a client who is unreasonable that we pull the legal card. It was unfortunate that we actually had to sue a client and it is something I would never want to do again, but that situation really called for it.

So please don't think I am saying that you should ignore your clients and just do whatever you want. You won't be in business long if you do that. But I do want to get out that people in this industry are not helpless and do have the power to shape thier business and how they run it.

FDB