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Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

cescotto — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:38:16 GMT

http://www.digg.com/apple/Windows_NET_Developer_Says_Mac_OS_X_10_5_Leopard_Years_Ahead_of_Windows

" of course say, "Yes", and was about to say, "and it runs just fine on my laptop!" when Vista crashed!! My cursor froze, and then a few seconds later, it was dumping core and rebooting. This event was followed by a bout of riotous laughter from the other Mac people seated at the circular table."

When I read those things I wonder if there's somebody behind all those articles with crashes etc.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

JonathonW — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:41:27 GMT

cescotto wrote:

http://www.digg.com/apple/Windows_NET_Developer_Says_Mac_OS_X_10_5_Leopard_Years_Ahead_of_Windows

" of course say, "Yes", and was about to say, "and it runs just fine on my laptop!" when Vista crashed!! My cursor froze, and then a few seconds later, it was dumping core and rebooting. This event was followed by a bout of riotous laughter from the other Mac people seated at the circular table."

When I read those things I wonder if there's somebody behind all those articles with crashes etc.

And Mac OS has never crashed before...

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

cescotto — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:50:33 GMT

CannotResolveSymbol wrote:

And Mac OS has never crashed before...

It's not the fact that it crashed, it's the fact that it crashed in an anti-MS bashing article as exactly people would have expected with no explanations whatsoever. I wonder if there's somebody paying people to write those kind of articles or what...

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

stevo_ — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:15:47 GMT

Heard it all now, OS 10 has a better alternative to .net? I'm sure.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

cescotto — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:20:45 GMT

By the way the reason why I post those DIGG stories is because I hope that that somebody here that knows more of those arguments will comment on the comments section of the digg page to debunk those articles giving less possibilities to those stories to reach the frontpage.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Detroit Muscle — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:24:45 GMT

thumbtacks wrote:

There's no point (economically, for me) in targeting a platform with a tiny marketshare.

Less than 6% of new computers sold today run a Microsoft operating system. So tell me, thumbtacks, what platform do you target that has this "high market share?"

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Christian Liensberger — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:35:17 GMT

Detroit Muscle wrote:

Less than 6% of new computers sold today run a Microsoft operating system. So tell me, thumbtacks, what platform do you target that has this "high market share?"

Where have you got that information from?

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

blowdart — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:40:18 GMT

littleguru wrote:

Detroit Muscle wrote:Less than 6% of new computers sold today run a Microsoft operating system. So tell me, thumbtacks, what platform do you target that has this "high market share?"

Where have you got that information from?

You have to remember that eejit up there carefully said computers. He's an embedded "developer" and so shows his bias, against your assumptions.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

cescotto — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:45:40 GMT

Detroit Muscle wrote:

thumbtacks wrote: There's no point (economically, for me) in targeting a platform with a tiny marketshare.

Less than 6% of new computers sold today run a Microsoft operating system. So tell me, thumbtacks, what platform do you target that has this "high market share?"

And how many of those new computers sold run an Apple operating system?

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

blindlizard — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:51:05 GMT

I love how the author of this article talks about how development is better on the Mac so he is switching. I don't know about you, but I write software for others, not for some OS I pick out of the dark. Unless my clients/employers decide that Mac is the new platform, it is a waste of my time to even begin to think about writing code for it.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Jack Cade — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:54:26 GMT

cescotto wrote:

Detroit Muscle wrote:

thumbtacks wrote: There's no point (economically, for me) in targeting a platform with a tiny marketshare.

Less than 6% of new computers sold today run a Microsoft operating system. So tell me, thumbtacks, what platform do you target that has this "high market share?"

And how many of those new computers sold run an Apple operating system?

Including the iPod?

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

CodeMonkey666 — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:12:50 GMT

Detroit Muscle wrote:

Less than 6% of new computers sold today run a Microsoft operating system. So tell me, thumbtacks, what platform do you target that has this "high market share?"

I guess its how you define a computer. My casio watch could be defined as a computer. Cell phones such as symbian OS(sp) would be me best bet.

A better question would be personal computer OS market share.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

cescotto — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:17:16 GMT

Jack Cade wrote:

Including the iPod?

Even including the ipod it would still be about 1/10 of all the windows devices.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Harlequin — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:18:13 GMT

CodeMonkey666 wrote:

Detroit Muscle wrote:
Less than 6% of new computers sold today run a Microsoft operating system. So tell me, thumbtacks, what platform do you target that has this "high market share?"

I guess its how you define a computer. My casio watch could be defined as a computer. Cell phones such as symbian OS(sp) would be me best bet.

A better question would be personal computer OS market share.

6% Windows; means Apple is about 0.18%(6 x 3%), and Linux is about 0.018%(6 x 0.3%).

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

PeterF — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 17:48:49 GMT

Do you have Apple stocks or do they just pay you?
Are you a Mac consultant having a hard time to find customers?What's your interest in it all?

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

mstefan — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 17:57:56 GMT

cescotto wrote:

By the way the reason why I post those DIGG stories is because I hope that that somebody here that knows more of those arguments will comment on the comments section of the digg page to debunk those articles giving less possibilities to those stories to reach the frontpage.

I think it's pretty clear there's a grassroots disinformation campaign out there, designed to do nothing but spread fear, uncertainty and doubt about Vista prior to its release. It slowly ramped up from the RTM publish last November to where it's almost at a fever pitch now. But, when you're the top dog, you have to expect those kinds of potshots. The only thing we can do is point out inaccuracies. The key is to not become rabid yourself, nor exaggerate the benefits of Vista. Keep it real and the truth eventually prevails, IMHO.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

mstefan — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:24:08 GMT

sirhomer wrote:

People want Windows out. Microsoft could have made the best operating system ever, but it doesn't change the fact that most people don't want a monopoly dictating the computer industry for them. I'm less in favor of spreading FUD and more in favor of fighting Microsoft legally for their violations of federal anti-trust law.

I think you're completely wrong. Most people do not care what operating system they're using or whether Microsoft is effectively a monopoly or not. Most folks just want their computer to run the software that they've chosen, and do the stuff that they need it to do. The religious wars of Windows v. Linux v. Mac OS are just an incredibly small blip at the edge of the radar. While it's obviously important to you, it doesn't mean it is important to everyone or "most people".

And frankly, home computer use exploded under Microsoft's "monopoly", using their operating system. The same wouldn't have happened under UNIX or Linux, where you have variants on the variants of variants, each with their own subtle incompatibilities with one another. I used to be a UNIX developer back in the early 90s, and let me tell, you it was a nightmare. BSD v. System V, HP-UX v. AIX v. SCO Unix v. Sun OS. Windows provided a single, (largely) homogenous platform where you didn't have to have thousands of ifdefs sprinkled through your code. And then there's software distribution and installation. RPMs, tarballs, configure scripts, the list goes on. And then there's the stability "issues" that KDE has, and just the plethora of desktops. Power users and developers love choice; your average end-user does not, they're just left more confused by them.

While Linux has made some great strides and is a fantastic server platform, it has a long way to go before it's even a contender for the desktop.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

blowdart — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:28:14 GMT

sirhomer wrote:

People want Windows out. Microsoft could have made the best operating system ever, but it doesn't change the fact that most people don't want a monopoly dictating the computer industry for them. I'm less in favor of spreading FUD and more in favor of fighting Microsoft legally for their violations of federal anti-trust law.

You know I can't reconcile

"People want Windows out" with "I'm less in favor of spreading FUD"

Too much beer obviously [6]

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Jack Cade — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:44:49 GMT

mstefan wrote:

I think it's pretty clear there's a grassroots disinformation campaign out there on all sides

Fixed.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

mstefan — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:58:35 GMT

Jack Cade wrote:

mstefan wrote: I think it's pretty clear there's a grassroots disinformation campaign out there on all sides

Fixed.

On all sides of what? Seriously. I have yet to read any articles that state Vista is the greatest operating system ever written and that it will solve every issue with the platform. Anecdotally, I'd say for every one moderately positive article about Vista, there's 10 or more that are negative and rabidly anti-Microsoft. Not to mention that I have read a lot of articles that have complete inaccuracies with regard to what UAC is, how DRM works under Vista and a host of other things. From the misinformed "applications must be digitally signed to install them", to the completely ridiculous "you can't rip CDs into non-DRM formats".

Now, if you're talking about general misinformation campaigns about other operating systems not specifically in regard to Vista, then I'm sure there are. There's always folks who take no prisoners in the OS wars. But things have really gotten out of control with Vista, and unfortunately many people seem to have an unwillingness to engage their brains, think about what's actually being written and do their own research. The Gutmann whitepaper is a prime example of that.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Another_Darren — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:20:08 GMT

CannotResolveSymbol wrote:

And Mac OS has never crashed before...

Two years and no crash. An app did freeze once but you just get Finder to kill and reopen.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Jack Cade — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:24:28 GMT

mstefan wrote:

On all sides of what? Seriously. I have yet to read any articles that state Vista is the greatest operating system ever written and that it will solve every issue with the platform.

And you've never ever seen any FUD except that which was directed at Microsoft? Puh-lease.

mstefan wrote:

Anecdotally, I'd say for every one moderately positive article about Vista, there's 10 or more that are negative and rabidly anti-Microsoft. Not to mention that I have read a lot of articles that have complete inaccuracies with regard to what UAC is, how DRM works under Vista and a host of other things. From the misinformed "applications must be digitally signed to install them", to the completely ridiculous "you can't rip CDs into non-DRM formats".

Exactly. Anecdotal. If you asked a Linux or Mac user they would say exactly the same as you just have.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

cescotto — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:28:01 GMT

mstefan wrote:

Jack Cade wrote:

mstefan wrote: I think it's pretty clear there's a grassroots disinformation campaign out there on all sides

Fixed.

On all sides of what? Seriously. I have yet to read any articles that state Vista is the greatest operating system ever written and that it will solve every issue with the platform. Anecdotally, I'd say for every one moderately positive article about Vista, there's 10 or more that are negative and rabidly anti-Microsoft. Not to mention that I have read a lot of articles that have complete inaccuracies with regard to what UAC is, how DRM works under Vista and a host of other things. From the misinformed "applications must be digitally signed to install them", to the completely ridiculous "you can't rip CDs into non-DRM formats".

Now, if you're talking about general misinformation campaigns about other operating systems not specifically in regard to Vista, then I'm sure there are. There's always folks who take no prisoners in the OS wars. But things have really gotten out of control with Vista, and unfortunately many people seem to have an unwillingness to engage their brains, think about what's actually being written and do their own research. The Gutmann whitepaper is a prime example of that.

Thank god social websites like DIGG are becoming immune to FUD and propaganda but if Microsoft won't stop screwing the users with higher prices and nosense restrictions I really doubt that the dozens of Microsoft fans left will be able to stop all that infinite flux of anti-MS stories.

Just to remember MS what kind of stories will await them when there won't be fans debunking anti-MS stories anymore:

http://www.digg.com/apple/Windows_NET_Developer_Says_Mac_OS_X_10_5_Leopard_Years_Ahead_of_Windows
http://www.digg.com/software/I_can_get_a_Mac_Mini_for_about_the_same_as_Vista
http://www.digg.com/gaming_news/Vista_HL1_Engine_Crashes
http://www.digg.com/tech_news/Disadvantages_of_Windows_Vista
http://www.digg.com/tech_news/Wait_Don_t_buy_Windows_Vista_2

and this are just yesterday's FUD stories (the ones I remember of, but probably there were others) that were removed from the front-page. Imagine the same amount of stories repeated for each of the 365 days of the year...

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

cescotto — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:38:29 GMT

Jack Cade wrote:

And you've never ever seen any FUD except that which was directed at Microsoft? Puh-lease.

I have been on digg for a very very long time and I can tell you that the amount of anti-linux and anti-apple stories submitted is infinitesimal compared to the number of anti-ms stories.

If the 5 stories I pasted in my previous post reached the frontpage imagine how many are submitted each day (there are about 2000 stories submitted each day on digg, and only 20-30 reach the frontpage). We are talking about 5 anti-MS stories that reached the frontpage in a single day... same thing today, same thing tomorrow... In the meanwhile I still have to see any anti-linux or anti-mac story reaching the front-page.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Kevin Daly — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:49:48 GMT

Jack Cade wrote:

cescotto wrote:

Detroit Muscle wrote:

thumbtacks wrote: There's no point (economically, for me) in targeting a platform with a tiny marketshare.

Less than 6% of new computers sold today run a Microsoft operating system. So tell me, thumbtacks, what platform do you target that has this "high market share?"

And how many of those new computers sold run an Apple operating system?

Including the iPod?

Ah yes, the iPod.
Famous as a development platform...

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Jack Cade — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:52:26 GMT

Kevin Daly wrote:

Ah yes, the iPod.
Famous as a development platform...

Who said anything about a development platform? Com-pu-ter.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Jack Cade — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:55:57 GMT

cescotto wrote:

I have been on digg for a very very long time and I can tell you that the amount of anti-linux and anti-apple stories submitted is infinitesimal compared to the number of anti-ms stories.

So you are using Digg as your metric for source of FUD? Might as well use Slashdot, or C9.

Also Digg is barely two years old - I wouldn't call that a very very long time.

cescotto wrote:

In the meanwhile I still have to see any anti-linux or anti-mac story reaching the front-page.

So look elsewhere.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

cescotto — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:11:54 GMT

Jack Cade wrote:

cescotto wrote:
I have been on digg for a very very long time and I can tell you that the amount of anti-linux and anti-apple stories submitted is infinitesimal compared to the number of anti-ms stories.

So you are using Digg as your metric for source of FUD? Might as well use Slashdot, or C9.

Slashdot is prevalently visited by FOSS fans, C9 is visited prevalently by microsoft fans. Digg is neutral and it's very popular (19th most popular website in america) so I don't see why that shouldn't be used as a metric.

Jack Cade wrote:

Also Digg is barely two years old - I wouldn't call that a very very long time.

For me that's a lot of time, especially considering that I visit it daily like many other people.

Jack Cade wrote:

So look elsewhere.

And where? MSFN? Winbeta? OsNews? I don't remember seeing anti-linux or anti-mac news there too.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Another_Darren — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:19:14 GMT

cescotto wrote:

Jack Cade wrote:
And you've never ever seen any FUD except that which was directed at Microsoft? Puh-lease.

I have been on digg for a very very long time and I can tell you that the amount of anti-linux and anti-apple stories submitted is infinitesimal compared to the number of anti-ms stories.

If the 5 stories I pasted in my previous post reached the frontpage imagine how many are submitted each day (there are about 2000 stories submitted each day on digg, and only 20-30 reach the frontpage). We are talking about 5 anti-MS stories that reached the frontpage in a single day... same thing today, same thing tomorrow... In the meanwhile I still have to see any anti-linux or anti-mac story reaching the front-page.

Oh yeah, remember the iPhone launch? How many articles/blogs linked saying how crap it was or "nothing new"? Honestly you must have been on holiday that day...

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

ScanIAm — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:23:54 GMT

cescotto wrote:

And where? MSFN? Winbeta? OsNews? I don't remember seeing anti-linux or anti-mac news there too.

If you want to find anti-*nix news, you'll need to pick up a copy of the Wall Streed Journal or Forbes.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

cescotto — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:26:20 GMT

Another_Darren wrote:

cescotto wrote:

Jack Cade wrote:
And you've never ever seen any FUD except that which was directed at Microsoft? Puh-lease.

I have been on digg for a very very long time and I can tell you that the amount of anti-linux and anti-apple stories submitted is infinitesimal compared to the number of anti-ms stories.

If the 5 stories I pasted in my previous post reached the frontpage imagine how many are submitted each day (there are about 2000 stories submitted each day on digg, and only 20-30 reach the frontpage). We are talking about 5 anti-MS stories that reached the frontpage in a single day... same thing today, same thing tomorrow... In the meanwhile I still have to see any anti-linux or anti-mac story reaching the front-page.

Oh yeah, remember the iPhone launch? How many articles/blogs linked saying how crap it was or "nothing new"? Honestly you must have been on holiday that day...

I was there, and the front page was pratically filled with pro-iphone stories. The first iphone story reached 11000 diggs, almost a new record. The anti-iphone stories were mostly of people complaining of the cingular restrictions or things like that, but I surely don't remember many stories that could have been really classified as real "iphone bashing".

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Ray6 — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:49:44 GMT

Another_Darren wrote:

CannotResolveSymbol wrote:
And Mac OS has never crashed before...

Two years and no crash. An app did freeze once but you just get Finder to kill and reopen.

Mine crashed about three months ago and about six months before that. I used to be able to crash it by visiting a certain web page using Safari.

The XP box has not crashed once, even though it runs three web servers and Office.

If Vista can match that sort of stability, then I'll be happy, but with all the new stuff that's gone in under the covers, I'm going to wait and see.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Ray6 — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:00:18 GMT

Kevin Daly wrote:

Jack Cade wrote:

cescotto wrote:

Detroit Muscle wrote:

thumbtacks wrote: There's no point (economically, for me) in targeting a platform with a tiny marketshare.

Less than 6% of new computers sold today run a Microsoft operating system. So tell me, thumbtacks, what platform do you target that has this "high market share?"

And how many of those new computers sold run an Apple operating system?

Including the iPod?

Ah yes, the iPod.
Famous as a development platform...

.. and not actually an OS developed by Apple; it was licensed from a third party.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

RichardRudek — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:16:41 GMT

[Rocky and Bullwinkle]

Bullwinkle: Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabid outta my hat.

Rocky: Again ?

Couldn't resist...

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Echostorm — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:45:56 GMT

Second .Net developer says constant stream of macfag generated propaganda totally gay.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

PaoloM — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:42:03 GMT

Echostorm wrote:

Second .Net developer says constant stream of macfag generated propaganda totally gay.

That takes the temporary slot for Stupidest Post of 2007.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

caffeineHi — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:15:41 GMT

I have a hard time believing that Cocoa can compete with .NET 3.0/WPF much less .NET 1.1 (+MONO +DotGNU). Then try to compete with an IDE like Visual Studio. Then throw in program suite/OS integration. No way.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Another_Darren — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:12:29 GMT

cescotto wrote:

Another_Darren wrote:

cescotto wrote:

Jack Cade wrote:
And you've never ever seen any FUD except that which was directed at Microsoft? Puh-lease.

I have been on digg for a very very long time and I can tell you that the amount of anti-linux and anti-apple stories submitted is infinitesimal compared to the number of anti-ms stories.

If the 5 stories I pasted in my previous post reached the frontpage imagine how many are submitted each day (there are about 2000 stories submitted each day on digg, and only 20-30 reach the frontpage). We are talking about 5 anti-MS stories that reached the frontpage in a single day... same thing today, same thing tomorrow... In the meanwhile I still have to see any anti-linux or anti-mac story reaching the front-page.

Oh yeah, remember the iPhone launch? How many articles/blogs linked saying how crap it was or "nothing new"? Honestly you must have been on holiday that day...

I was there, and the front page was pratically filled with pro-iphone stories. The first iphone story reached 11000 diggs, almost a new record. The anti-iphone stories were mostly of people complaining of the cingular restrictions or things like that, but I surely don't remember many stories that could have been really classified as real "iphone bashing".

They where there, you just got to understand people like Apple products and get excited about them. Look at the Vista launch, not many pics of huge queues outside shops for it. You can't blame Apple for making stuff people want.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

cescotto — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:25:59 GMT

caffeineHi wrote:

I have a hard time believing that Cocoa can compete with .NET 3.0/WPF much less .NET 1.1 (+MONO +DotGNU). Then try to compete with an IDE like Visual Studio. Then throw in program suite/OS integration. No way.

I have a bad feeling about them releasing a win32 (by the way should I say win64 now?) version of cocoa to make mac applications compatible with windows.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

cescotto — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:27:00 GMT

Another_Darren wrote:

They where there, you just got to understand people like Apple products and get excited about them. Look at the Vista launch, not many pics of huge queues outside shops for it. You can't blame Apple for making stuff people want.

I'm not blaming anybody I'm just saying that I haven't seen as much bad stories on apple products than I've seen on microsoft products.

Coffeehouse - Windows .NET Developer Says Leopard Years Ahead

Jack Cade — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:31:53 GMT

cescotto wrote:

caffeineHi wrote:I have a hard time believing that Cocoa can compete with .NET 3.0/WPF much less .NET 1.1 (+MONO +DotGNU). Then try to compete with an IDE like Visual Studio. Then throw in program suite/OS integration. No way.

I have a bad feeling about them releasing a win32 (by the way should I say win64 now?) version of cocoa to make mac applications compatible with windows.

No you can still say Win32 in the same way you can still say Win16. They're both going to be around for quite a long time yet.