Who will be the "​Reagan" Presidential Candidate in 2008?

If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.

~Ronald Reagan

Inside Ronald Reagan

A Reason Interview

http://www.reason.com/news/show/29318.html


Looks like Congressman Ron Paul!

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=70183124


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul

No, libertarianism and conservatism are very much at odds with each other.  I mean sure they tend to agree on the same economic issues but for completely different reasons.  Libertarians want nothing less than completely free markets.  Conservatives tend to be pragmatists and reject any notions of utopian ideas or blatant idealism, which the ideal free market would fall under.  Nevertheless, they strongly support invidividual responsibility and the freedom to fail, or not.

So say there's an issue of government regulation.  Libertarians would reject this for more free markets.  Conservatives would reject it for increased individual freedom.  Same result, different reasons.

And of course in all other issues, especially social issues and foreign policy, they have nothing in common.

raymond wrote:

if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories.

Suddenly Frank Zappa's song 'We're Turning Again' jumps to mind.

In Europe, and as I understand in Australia, a liberal is pretty much a conservative. Or, the put it differently, if you are looking for supporter of US Republicans in Europe, search for liberals.

What we call conservatives, who are pretty closest to said liberals and US republicans, are the conserving kind. They are hard to be moved to change. Small, short term matters, yes, but any bigger issues in ethics, civilian rights etc, no. However, you have to see that against the background of Dutch politics and society (and despite popular myth, we are not communists or even socialists).

raymond wrote:

If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.~Ronald Reagan Inside Ronald Reagan A Reason Interviewhttp://www.reason.com/news/show/29318.htmlLooks like Congressman Ron Paul!http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=70183124http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul

Are YOU kidding?

Today Cons are R/W Wacko Neo-Con terroists in-training LED by Presidente Senor Bush who is SOOOOOOO far left he makes Hilary look like a Fascist.

I believe Arnold is a Liberatarian.  If we could get over his damnable LEGAL alien Status and run him, I'd vote for him. 

I'm SURE Bush could find a way for his now unemployed butt-buddy  Vincente Fox to run!

Anyone want to RALLY around with us Italianos?  I heard a rumor that Rudy Guiliani was gonna run........ Last vistage of humanity in that jungle known as NYC. 

I would swish my sexy blonde (I need to watch my language) off if it would help us get a legitimate candidate like Rudy not only on the ballot (hope it's a given) BUT also elected after 8 years of NEO-Con HELL

Arnold IS a Liberatarian.

Rudy Guiliani IS a Liberatarian

I am a REGISTERED Repub due to lingering love and respect for Ronald Reagan.

I find MOST Repubs and Cons outside of California to be EXTREME religious FANATICS on a par with the Muslim Terrorists that took down the twin towers.

Religion and Government should NEVER mix!

I sense a scandal already...

My wife calls herself a "Libertarian".

She's a left-wing Democrat.

That should prove to you, Raymond, and everyone else that Libertarian is nothing more than a cop-out. A simple rejection of the extremes in 'your' party, whichever that may be.

So just admit that Republicans are divided and have no hope of winning much until Iraq is forgotten. Or don't and continue your denial and delusions.

Folks are either Democratic or Republican, and until a Libertarian wins a Senate seat or the White House, Libertarianism is fiction.

The word of the day is "sophomore".

Bah, left and right are such archaic measures of political intent, whatever happened to up and down (and in and out.)

Stop being so black and white JohnAskew, you can agree with a parties stance on one thing while disagreeing with its stance on another.

Then again, I have the "pleasure" of living in the UK where labour (supposedly socialist, actually conservative.) and the conservatives (supposedly conservative, actually pointless) and the liberal democrats (supposedly liberal socialists, actually pragmatic but ignored) fight it out for the middle ground - it's so boring! What are us poor extremists to do?

Massif wrote:

Stop being so black and white JohnAskew, you can agree with a parties stance on one thing while disagreeing with its stance on another.

I did not say that one cannot disagree with something in 'their' party...

What I said is that "Libertarianism" is claimed by everyone. By those who only vote Democratic, by those who only vote Republican, and by those who vote either party.

Since everyone claims "Libertarianism" that reduces the term to absurdity.



Example: I've never voted Republican, but I think it a mistake to abandon Iraq ASAP, contrary to 99% of 'my' party. I'm still not foolish enough to say "I'm a Libertarian". That's fiction born of denial and disillusion.

Just on a curious note, what's the difference betwen the Libertarian stance (that government should stick to a limited number of activities) and the anarchist one (that government should sod off.)

I guess if you disagree with your party, and disagree with the other, then you find yourself reasoning that whatever that issue is then government has no place deciding on it. Which leads you to claiming you're a libertarian.

Massif wrote:

I guess if you disagree with your party, and disagree with the other, then you find yourself reasoning that whatever that issue is then government has no place deciding on it. Which leads you to claiming you're a libertarian.

That's my take as well.

I don't have much respect for it since it includes taking no action within 'your party'. Hence my disdain for the claim.

I think the "Reagan" canidate will be Mitt Romney.  He has the fiscal conservative passion that we haven't seen since Reagan.

raymond wrote:

If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.

~Ronald Reagan

Reagan is talking about a misnamed conservatism. As he said the conservatives at the time of the revolution were not on the libertarian side. A society which is fashioned on an ideology of freedom does not "conserve" what has been essential in its history. It is a radical movement with no respect for even the social values that we have - family values, religious significance, compassion for the poor, etc.. Libertarianism wants to create from scratch on new principles, not to conserve.

DigitalDud wrote:

No, libertarianism and conservatism are very much at odds with each other.  I mean sure they tend to agree on the same economic issues but for completely different reasons.  Libertarians want nothing less than completely free markets.  Conservatives tend to be pragmatists and reject any notions of utopian ideas or blatant idealism, which the ideal free market would fall under.  Nevertheless, they strongly support invidividual responsibility and the freedom to fail, or not.

So say there's an issue of government regulation.  Libertarians would reject this for more free markets.  Conservatives would reject it for increased individual freedom.  Same result, different reasons.

And of course in all other issues, especially social issues and foreign policy, they have nothing in common.

I completely agree and am a libertarian for exactly the reason you state--I want completely free markets with little or no government regulation, very-limited government and low tax rates.

Every time I take the World's Smallest Political Quiz, I score 100% libertarian:

The RED DOT on the Chart shows where you fit on the political map.

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

Conservatives cannot seem to mind their own business when it comes to personall issues and American liberals cannot mind their own business when it comes to economic issues.

Most people would prefer to be left alone when the government comes to help them.

That said, I find many more American conservatives tending towards libertarianism than towards big government, the exception being the neo-cons.

For an excellent history of conservatism in the USA read George H. Nash's

The Conservative Intellectual Movement in America

and Russell Kirk's

The Conservative Mind: From Burke to Elliot

and  for two excellent books on libertarianism read David Boaz's:

Libertarianism: A Primer

The Libertarian Reader

http://www.catostore.org/index.asp?fa=ProductDetails&method=cats&scid=14&pid=1441021



P.S. Libtarianism in America is classical liberalism or what in Europe are called liberals.

American liberals are socialists.

American Liberals are not socialists.

What socialist champions Gay Rights as a fundamental issue? 

Socialists champion welfare and not individual freedom and liberty.


Liberals are in both Democratic and Republican parties.
I consider the Terminator a liberal Republican (like most Calif. Repubs.)

Liberals want to be left alone, same root as Libertarian, as you point out. Liberals want people to 'do as they will'.

Conservatives want control to deny Gay Rights, as contrast. Conservatives want to deny stem cell research on religious grounds, and abortion. That's not liberty, it's nothing of the sort. That is government regulation over liberty, not even small government.

What you are confusing is the idea of small government.

Small government was a 'Reagan' speaking point. Conservatives Republicans rallied to his leadership and thought they all became proponents of small government. They didn't. Look at Cheney and his neo-cons (and his monkey). They like huge government and mega-power over it.

Conservatives don't want small government and they are very much the minority.

You do want small government and individual liberty, and most everyone else does too, from both ends of both parties.

That's why the nebulous ether of Libertarianism is so popular to all.

Folks just don't claim to be "Libertarian" until they are embarrassed by 'their party', imho.


EDIT: In my mind the left and the libertarians stand opposite the right and the statists. You may see it reversed of that. I always test out as a Centrist due to my unapologetic realism.

Neo-cons are statists.

The rank and file true believers of the American Liberal Socialist Left

Or, A Radical Leftist Liberal Socialist Commie Feminist Pinko from Hell

http://www.myleftwing.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=362

This is silly.  Every time a liberal is called a commie, socialist, pinko, or marxist, it's a relic of the same generation that thought these guys

were going to save us from the cubans.

Social ideals are those that expect that the society can be improved and in turn, life for the members of that society can improve as well.  These ideals aren't a plot to sully our daughter's virtue or dress our sons up in pink.  They are simply trying to address the facts that some people are stuck in a crappy situation and we could help them out.

Conservatives, on the other hand, are heartless, soulless demons who listen to Lawrence Welk and club baby seals