raymond

Feb 21, 2007 at 8:34 PM

I think XAML will, provided Expression Designer and Expression Web make it possible for designers to rarely write XAML, surpass XHTML in five years.

What do you think?

Am currently reading:

Windows Presentation Foundation Unleased by Adam Nathan:

and Application = Code + Markup: A Guide to Windows Presentation Foundation by Charles Petzold:

.

Charles and Rory, please interview them and the Windows Presentation Foundation team.

Thanks
CannotResolveSymbol Microsoft: Who do you want to execute today?

Feb 21, 2007 at 8:37 PM

No. They do completely different things. Just no.

(edit: How do I turn off copy on middle click in Linux???? Gaah!)
Xaero_Vincent Sexy me

Feb 21, 2007 at 8:46 PM

Its already been said that XAML isn't meant to replace HTML/XHTML, only compliment it.

Besides, I'm learning HTML/XHTML in one of my classes. I'd prefer not to be forced to learn a proprietary, Windows/.NET-dependent, markup language.
Charles Welcome Change

Feb 21, 2007 at 8:51 PM

No.
LostInTangent

Feb 21, 2007 at 9:14 PM

Is this a joke?
DigitalDud

Feb 21, 2007 at 11:13 PM

Well MS should build an XHTML/CSS replacement, I mean it's basically unusable crap. And the W3C is doing a horrible job getting new recommendations out the door. They still haven't finalized CSS 2.1 last time I checked, which leaves us with the errata-filled CSS 2.0.

We need a company like MS to push out new web standards, backed by an actual standards organization like ISO.
Rowan Look, no errors.

Feb 22, 2007 at 12:48 AM

DigitalDud wrote:

Well MS should build an XHTML/CSS replacement.

hehe

Charles wrote:

No.

QFT.
LostInTangent

Feb 22, 2007 at 7:32 AM

DigitalDud wrote:

Well MS should build an XHTML/CSS replacement, I mean it's basically unusable crap.

Unuseable crap? I'd really like to hear some detailed explanations on why you feel that way, because anyone who is a serious, standard-driven web developer would contend that statement.

DigitalDud wrote:

And the W3C is doing a horrible job getting new recommendations out the door. They still haven't finalized CSS 2.1 last time I checked, which leaves us with the errata-filled CSS 2.0.

Have you seen the CSS 3 spec? What about XHTML 2.0? What the W3C has in development is beyond amazing and will make web development a breeze, not to mention extremely flexible and powerful. They are by no means the hold up in getting things "out the door". If you want to complain to someone, aim your comments towards browser developers.

DigitalDud wrote:

We need a company like MS to push out new web standards, backed by an actual standards organization like ISO.

Don't you think we should let Microsoft fully adopt CSS 2.0 into IE first? They have yet to show their complete commitment to following the standards of the W3C, so how would it make sense to have them become the writers of the standard?

The fact that XAML was perceived as a possible replacement to HTML just goes to show the huge lack of understanding of the role of both formats. Just because they are both XML doesn't mean they are interchangeable.
fdisk

Feb 22, 2007 at 7:42 AM

This is all backwards. XAML is going to replace Flash AND knock out OpenGL in one swift blow.
Massif aim stupidly high, expect to fail often.

Feb 22, 2007 at 7:48 AM

fdisk wrote:

This is all backwards. XAML is going to replace Flash AND knock out OpenGL in one swift blow.

WPF/E may replace flash in the situations where they overlap, and DirectX 10 is going to make OpenGL work very hard to keep up.

XAML however remains a cool language for creating object hierarchys, and as such lends itself well to UI design. Hopefully it will kill hand-coding UI.

None of them will kill XHTML, and Flash will survive despite WPF/E and XAML.
Harlequin http://twitter.com/TrueHarlequin

Feb 22, 2007 at 8:41 AM

sirhomer wrote:

The FUD and mud slinging in this thread is high.

Where?
Xaero_Vincent Sexy me

Feb 22, 2007 at 8:56 AM

Flash is going to be hard to replace. Its currently installed on 98% of the worlds computers!

Not only that but WPF/E is at best a Windows and Mac-only copy of Flash, while Flash works on Mac, Linux, FreeBSD (Linux version), and Solaris.
Sampy And I come back to you now - at the turn of the tide

Feb 22, 2007 at 9:09 AM

I hope WPF/E replaces Flash video. Real streaming Windows Media is much easier on servers than Flash video. There are also a lot more things you can do easier with streaming Windows Media than you can with Flash.
TimP

Feb 22, 2007 at 9:34 AM

Sampy wrote:

I hope WPF/E replaces Flash video. Real streaming Windows Media is much easier on servers than Flash video. There are also a lot more things you can do easier with streaming Windows Media than you can with Flash.

Unless Microsoft supports WPF/Windows Media on more platforms I hope this never happens.
DigitalDud

Feb 22, 2007 at 11:29 AM

LostInTangent wrote:

Have you seen the CSS 3 spec? What about XHTML 2.0? What the W3C has in development is beyond amazing and will make web development a breeze, not to mention extremely flexible and powerful. They are by no means the hold up in getting things "out the door". If you want to complain to someone, aim your comments towards browser developers.

Don't you think we should let Microsoft fully adopt CSS 2.0 into IE first? They have yet to show their complete commitment to following the standards of the W3C, so how would it make sense to have them become the writers of the standard?

Here's why Microsoft shouldn't fully adopt CSS 2: http://www.w3.org/Style/css2-updates/REC-CSS2-19980512-errata.html

I mean CSS 2.1 was supposed to fix all these issues, but its been under development for oh, 8+ years.

How can you expect Microsoft to implement a broken recommendation that will most likely change anyway.
Nullable SingingEels.com

Feb 22, 2007 at 11:52 AM

DigitalDud wrote:

How can you expect Microsoft to implement a broken recommendation that will most likely change anyway.

IE is on it's way, but is still pretty far from implimenting all of CSS 2.x. And they plan on supporting more of the standards and are working on it... so your argument in this quote above is really foolish.

[Side Point] - I do hope that Microsoft takes really pushes their IE team to start producing some gold with that product... IE7 was a good step, but we can't wait years for the next update. They should really start pushing to show how great they are and how seriously they take the evolving world of developers.
LostInTangent

Feb 22, 2007 at 11:55 AM

DigitalDud wrote:

Here's why Microsoft shouldn't fully adopt CSS 2: http://www.w3.org/Style/css2-updates/REC-CSS2-19980512-errata.html

I mean CSS 2.1 was supposed to fix all these issues, but its been under development for oh, 8+ years.

How can you expect Microsoft to implement a broken recommendation that will most likely change anyway.

If you wanted to get critical, there isn't a single language/standard on the face of the earth that isn't error/mistake ridden. Microsoft is by no means innocent in that means either. I constantly find oversights in .NET and I've even made public comments about issues that were never resolved.

What's important isn't whether or not the language is perfect, but whether or not it can facilitate the needs of your development. I have had no problems using any of the W3C's recommendations to accomplish the level of work I want to achieve.

I may be looking at this too simply, so if you would please list a couple real-world examples in which the CSS/HTML spec has limited what you are able to do and also let me know what you think can/should be done to correct it.

AdamKinney Agent of Change

TimP wrote:

Sampy wrote: I hope WPF/E replaces Flash video. Real streaming Windows Media is much easier on servers than Flash video. There are also a lot more things you can do easier with streaming Windows Media than you can with Flash.

Unless Microsoft supports WPF/Windows Media on more platforms I hope this never happens.

Here's a the current browser/OS compatibility grid for WPF/E:

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/asp.net/bb187401.aspx#browser

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