Apple getting a clue?

Over on MicrosoftWatch there is an interesting post about the Apple WWDC (Dev Conference) and how this year it appears to be focusing a lot on Windows developers and IT people.

Microsoft Watch wrote:

Aside from its core Mac developer community, Apple has two other audiences in mind: developers of other operating systems, such as Linux and Windows, and IT professionals.

The interest in non-Mac developers, particularly Windows, stems from Apple's success with its Leopard Tech Talks, said Ron Okamoto, the company's vice president of worldwide developer relations.

"One-third of attendees are new to the Mac," he said.

Have Apple finally realised that developers are actually useful? Will they stop releasing products that kill products written by small indie developers? Is it just all about Sales.  I suspect the latter, but isn't it the case with all companies?  Isn't 'developers, developers, developers' all about Sales as well?

Nonsense, anything not conceived by his Steveness isn't kosher. 

there are some strong rumors about Apple releasing a cocoa port for windows that`s why I believe they`re looking for windows developers

Don't you mean re-release? This is the Yellox box aka the OpenSTEP environment for Windows. It's existed before OS X just as the native x86 version of the OS did.

If Apple released a port of Cocoa for Windows (which I don't believe they will) then I would be a lot more likely to hang around on Windows, it would also reduce the number of reasons to switch, which would result in less hardware sales - which is their bread and butter.

Apple will not port Cocoa to Windows - they might however try their best to convince Windows developers to move to using Cocoa on OSX, which now that I have broken the pain barrier I absolutely *LOVE*. Really. An API. How sad am I?

YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:

there are some strong rumors about Apple releasing a cocoa port for windows that`s why I believe they`re looking for windows developers

That would be such a massive waste of time. I don't see any Windows developers wanting to learn another (pretty average IMO) UI toolkit. Perhaps there are some OSX app developers (there must be a few of them) who would like to port their apps onto Windows, but that's about the only use for it.

rhm wrote:


That would be such a massive waste of time. I don't see any Windows developers wanting to learn another (pretty average IMO) UI toolkit.

I am interested in what it is about Cocoa that you think is pretty average?  I've worked with a few UI toolkits over the years ... which of them do you think is better than Cocoa?

I can understand if it is ObjC that you don't like, but starting with 10.5 you can use Ruby and/or Python to write your cocoa apps.

Rossj wrote:

Have Apple finally realised that developers are actually useful? Will they stop releasing products that kill products written by small indie developers? Is it just all about Sales.  I suspect the latter, but isn't it the case with all companies?  Isn't 'developers, developers, developers' all about Sales as well?

Back in the Apple ][ days, they *seemed* to care a lot more about developers. The "indie" industry also seemed to be a lot more devoted...and there were several third party development houses around...Beagle Bros., Br0derbund, Sierra Software and many others. It was a lot of fun. You could write code that would work on an Apple IIc, II+, IIe and a IIGS (with expanded abilities of course on that machine). But when the Macintosh came along, it seemed like there was a major shift, and I gave up at that point. I haven't found a reason to go back.

Rossj wrote:



I am interested in what it is about Cocoa that you think is pretty average?  I've worked with a few UI toolkits over the years ... which of them do you think is better than Cocoa?

I can understand if it is ObjC that you don't like, but starting with 10.5 you can use Ruby and/or Python to write your cocoa apps.

I don't really mean "average" as an insult - perhaps "ordinary" would be a better way to describe it. I just don't see anything in there that sets it appart from numerous other OO frameworks. If I had to chose between Cocoa and raw Win32 code or MFC, then Cocoa might be a winner (if it wasn't for Obj-C), but I wouldn't take it over .NET2 Windows Forms, and WPF makes it look like the 1990s technology that it is.

The language issue is the major turn-off for anyone coming to OSX development. Objective-C is a horrible language and what's with all these NS prefixes in the framework - doesn't Obj-C support namespaces? As for it supporting Ruby and Python - that might win lots of support from the khaki-wearing set, but it still leaves Obj-C as the only serious non-scripting language supported. They really shot themselves in the foot when they dropped Java support from Cocoa. Not that I like Java, but going back to unmanaged development would be hell and using Ruby, worse than.

rhm wrote:

If I had to chose between Cocoa and raw Win32 code or MFC, then Cocoa might be a winner (if it wasn't for Obj-C), but I wouldn't take it over .NET2 Windows Forms, and WPF makes it look like the 1990s technology that it is.

Hmm I would definitely disagree with your assertion that Winforms is somehow better, WPF maybe but the focus was on easy to use instead of flexible and it suffers from that (and possibly a little over-engineering). One of the things that I like about Cocoa over WinForms is the separate of code and presentation is a lot cleaner, with the focus on MVC with Cocoa whereas WinForms forces me to do all of that myself.

I totally take your point about ObjC, I also thought it was horrendous, until I started spending much more time with it, and now I think it is anything but - in fact I'd probably put it in my top 3 faves.  Sure it has its flaws (no GC until 10.5) and the [[] ] gets on your nerves a little, but it just makes sense once you have 'broken through' the slight change in thinking.

And no it doesn't have namespaces, which I miss, but it does have a lot of features that other languages are just now picking up on - categories (extension methods in C#) spring to mind. I believe you can use namespaces if you are using Objective-C++.

I think ObjC is much maligned, a lot of people who I have seen before say ing 'I don't want to learn another language just to program on platform X' I have seen sometime later discussing how quickly they learnt Ruby, or Lua or whatever.  I think it is funny to see people who like Java, or C++ or Smalltalk saying how much they dislike ObjC - when in most cases it appears (and I am not targetting this at you) that they have not looked past the [] syntax.

YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:

there are some strong rumors about Apple releasing a cocoa port for windows that`s why I believe they`re looking for windows developers

I think it would be a better idea to get Microsoft to support .NET on OSX.

I reckon there are already more .NET developers than Cocoa developers anyway.

For Apple to save itself and to recover from the decline is simple. They only have to do one thing.  Release OS X under the GPL 3.  Thats the only solution.  Any company that does not adopt the GPL 3 can simply watch their product become obsolete.

corona_coder wrote:

For Apple to save itself and to recover from the decline is simple. They only have to do one thing.  Release OS X under the GPL 3.  Thats the only solution.  Any company that does not adopt the GPL 3 can simply watch their product become obsolete.

You really are delusional aren't you?

corona_coder wrote:

For Apple to save itself and to recover from the decline is simple. They only have to do one thing.  Release OS X under the GPL 3.  Thats the only solution.  Any company that does not adopt the GPL 3 can simply watch their product become obsolete.

Corona, I'm calling you out on this one. Lets back up that statement with some facts.

I also have to call you on the 'anyone who doesnt use GPL3 is doomed' (paraphrased) statement. Your hero, Linus, doesnt even approve of GPL3. So are you saying that the Linux Kernel is obsolete?

corona_coder wrote:

For Apple to save itself and to recover from the decline is simple. They only have to do one thing.  Release OS X under the GPL 3.  Thats the only solution.  Any company that does not adopt the GPL 3 can simply watch their product become obsolete.

Yes because we all see Apple struggling.

Jason Cox wrote:



corona_coder wrote: For Apple to save itself and to recover from the decline is simple. They only have to do one thing.  Release OS X under the GPL 3.  Thats the only solution.  Any company that does not adopt the GPL 3 can simply watch their product become obsolete.

Corona, I'm calling you out on this one. Lets back up that statement with some facts.

I also have to call you on the 'anyone who doesnt use GPL3 is doomed' (paraphrased) statement. Your hero, Linus, doesnt even approve of GPL3. So are you saying that the Linux Kernel is obsolete?

Whats the most popular open source license in the world?  The GPL.  Open Source is successful look at Sun.  Sun , Java and Solaris was almost in the grave one foot on the Hotwheel the other one in the hole.  Now, Solaris is a very popular open source project.  Will Linux be obsolete if Linus doesnt move to GPL 3?  Yes it will be and is easily replaced by Sun Solaris that will be GPL 3.  The GPL 3 makes it so that software innovation is not inhibited by Patents and DRM.  Openess is the future.  Most GPL projects say they will move to GPL 3.  Java being GPL is going to catapult it past .NET. 2007 is not only the year of the Linux desktop its also the year of the GPL.

(Sorry Rossj, 100% offtopic )

The Torvalds Transcript: Why I 'Absolutely Love' GPL Version 2

corona_coder wrote:

For Apple to save itself and to recover from the decline is simple.

What decline is that then?