Silverlight: will it embrace and extend flash? (hope so)

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When ms decided to launch IE - to best Netscape a long time ago.. they used the now somewhat infamous method of matching the existing market leaders features / supporting all they support, and then upping the anti - with new better features.

my question regarding silverlight is - will it "embrace" flash - then extend it? or will we be seeing things like Windows Media Player become less flash friendly?

I am asking still about why i can play flash files from my server - but not locally in WMP.  It seems the SWF format - like it or not - with the rise of youtube and its ilk (ha) is deserving of the same treatement as any other file format... will this happen? or will silverlight get preferential treatment?

Im hoping (by using the embrace part - that winmedia / IE - for ANY downloaded flash formated file - would play them - with no warnings pop ups or buried settings that are confusing to change. - and - *extend - would offer to conveniently "save as" silverlight format if i choose too.

When i download an avi - and open it - any media player i choose - WMP included - plays it with no fuss..no errors...no settings changes - especially buried ones (still cant find how to play local flash in wmp).  why cant i play a downloaded flash file in WMP but i can off server?

and last - does silverlight have an extention? or is it just WMV/WMA +  if it can read a flash file in WMP already (it does flawlessly) and i save/convert it to Silverlight (if that existed) what app would open the silverlight file?  premier? probably not... expression... ____?

edit:  adobe media player will indeed play swf files - like media player does already (from server) - please make this work local - no errors - no hassles for users

?

SWF is not a video format.

FLV is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLV

[OT] a couple more random SL questions

- one reason ive never liked flash is even at "best quality" logos and graphics can look ..watery...   Will SL do vectors clearer - and again - if its wmv - is it all video res based?

- another reason i hate flash is the right mouse options.
will SL have a right mouse flyout - more like IE's - than wmp/flash player?  ( = copy, view source, refresh, etc) * not a useless flash one

- one more extend idea...  why not let windows handle embeds and linking - and fullscreen... add that on right mouse..?


<c9>  RTFM!! <ha>

jamie wrote:

im aware of .fla (flash source file)

but all sites ( or the ones ive used) are all SWF

these DO play in media player - off the web (if you choose) or if youve saved the file to: \\ server\music\somewhere over the rainbow.SWF

.FLA <> .FLV

.FLV is the Flash video format. SWF files are Flash animation files that can contain embedded FLV video data, or stream that data from the server. I think you can also play .FLV files directly in the Flash player.

I'm surprised WMP even plays SWF files. I supsect it just loads the flash player plugin to play them instead of using a decoder like other "real" video formats (it may even use the browser control as a wrapper, I couldn't actually get it to play one to find out). The answers to your April post on the subject are probably where the server vs. local issue lies (security zone restrictions).

im aware of .fla (flash source file)

but all sites ( or the ones ive used) are all SWF

these DO play in media player - off the web (if you choose) or if youve saved the file to: \\ server\music\somewhere over the rainbow.SWF

even intro's to web sites play in WMP - complete with working animations, music and hyperlinks etc (but only from server - not local)

Just wondering if silverlight will change this for the better - or make it even harder


Edit: other example: ASP / PHP  frontpage 2003.  cant open php / or opens as text - rename it to asp or htm to work on it - opens fine with all formatting

yes thats what im asking for - no restrictions. its just an embedded player

please:  adobe media player will most likely NOT have errors on every file you click

please remove these restrictions ...uh... next week!   * unless youre not busy tonight (ha)

ps re: April post:  - i never could figure out the restrictions settings to make them play local


edit: Summary

- make any downloaded flash file play in either WMP or IE with no warnings or advanced setting changes for users (its already sandboxed and its not your issue for security - its adobes)

- hopefully the default for SWF - for "playing" is WMP (not ie)

- once thats out of the way - YES - by all means kill flash: "save as SL" / better right mouse options / higher quality - real vector clarity - files / Windows controls embedding of player info or sharing or linking ...

do the ray ozzie clipboard but for favorites ( universal clipboard = all platforms) =win controls universal clipboard, embedding, linking, sharing and favs...


but for now..
make swf play without errors (that you just might be... adding)
- and i will be HOPING you kill it after that [y]

(*by being better and fixing its shortcomings - there are many)

<the canned reply>

Thank you for your interest in Silverlight Technologies for Windows Vista TM
Unfortunately at this time - we cannot allow embedded media to run within the Windows TM ecosystem without error messages and prompts for our users

We will do our best in the future to resolve this issue!
The Silverlight Team


or   * yes i know im talking to myself - whats the big deal? Shut up and continue idiot!  ok ok!...

<the C9 reply i wish id get>

We will look into the local vs server play media issue for .swf files.
We realise the SWF format has taken on a different identity in recent months and will factor that in to our Supported Media DB exeptions and default settings in the future

thanks for the input - the Silverlight team

?

ok shut up
i am shutin up!
why i aughta...


edit: even just to "save as" silverlight - youd need to make opening swf easy...?

I warned ya's! RTFM!
POW! right in thu kisser

   Mike Swanson has been written a SWF to XAML converter which means that you can import your flash content to Silverlight;)

Sheva

Checkout the 1.0 Beta (use javascript to program against XAML) and 1.1 Alpha (.Net added the client in a cross platform way) for Silverlight. Then you can actually have a point of view. Not conjecture about what you can figure out now

Off my soap box: Silverlight is taking a community and giving it a way to do what it does on the server and do it at the Client where it make sense. The ASP.NET AJAX Integratin story should be facisinating to see unfold. Flash well was designed for designers the back ported for developers years later. Kinda backwards if you ask me and boy does it show. Thats without even talking about the features Silverlight brings to the party. Take a look at the Airplane sample for the Alpha!

odujosh wrote:

Checkout the 1.0 Beta (use javascript to program against XAML) and 1.1 Alpha (.Net added the client in a cross platform way) for Silverlight. Then you can actually have a point of view. Not conjecture about what you can figure out now

Off my soap box: Silverlight is taking a community and giving it a way to do what it does on the server and do it at the Client where it make sense. The ASP.NET AJAX Integratin story should be facisinating to see unfold. Flash well was designed for designers the back ported for developers years later. Kinda backwards if you ask me and boy does it show. Thats without even talking about the features Silverlight brings to the party. Take a look at the Airplane sample for the Alpha!

opposite everything above - if i read manuals - why would i need to ask questions at c9?

edit: my main issue is how swf format is treated like some weird "web" format.

it is basically THE format.. thats why silverlight even exisits (..correct?)

is ms going to support it in the internm - or kill it with errors, security, warnings..

that is really my main question. thanks for helping me find it

* EMBRACE... e x t e n d  .. is good! 


*edit/ps  i dont load much ms pre software anymore as it seems to require restore points instead of uninstall and sometimes requires almost hours of time ( expression betas of anything... .net issues... reboots..    google/apple must just laugh...

Microsoft has never been responsible for supporting Flash in Windows. Even in Windows XP, which supports it OOB, it's because they included the (then) Macromedia Flash plugin.

The Adobe Flash plugin is just an ActiveX control. If MS wants to kill it in the way you describe the additional security applies to all ActiveX controls, not Flash exclusively.

I think WMP does something additional to support SWF, but it will at some point use Adobe's plugin to do the actual playback.

Wow, I didn't realize that Windows Media Player could play Flash files though I suppose it's like others here have said and that it uses Adobe's Flash player ActiveX control to do this.

What I'm curious to know is if Silverlight will embrace, extend, and (hopefully) extinguish ActiveX controls.  ActiveX technology is COM-based, and it would be nice to see a .NET-based browser component solution that could eliminate or at least mitigate the need for that ancient, security hole-ridden mess, especially one that is cross-platform like Silverlight (Windows, MacOS, and hopefully Linux by the end of the year if Miguel de Icaza comes through).

JChung2006 wrote:

What I'm curious to know is if Silverlight will embrace, extend, and (hopefully) extinguish ActiveX controls.  ActiveX technology is COM-based, and it would be nice to see a .NET-based browser component solution that could eliminate or at least mitigate the need for that ancient, security hole-ridden mess, especially one that is cross-platform like Silverlight (Windows, MacOS, and hopefully Linux by the end of the year if Miguel de Icaza comes through).

   I think the implementation of Silverlight runtime for Internet Explorer will use the ActiveX technology:D

Sheva

There are some new interesting things going on at JavaOne right now. Sun has announced JavaFX, a group of technologies that could potentially compete in some market areas with Silverlight. (I've seen only the webcast so I don't know many details)

odujosh wrote:

Thats without even talking about the features Silverlight brings to the party. Take a look at the Airplane sample for the Alpha!

While the airplane sample is awesome, the video editing sample blew me away most.

One of the most perplexing thing to me is why Flash isn't more successful than it is. Sure, it's great at little interactive apps, and there are even full-blown, bonafide Flash applications, but they are the exceptions.

I mean Flash is more popular than Windows if you count how many copies are out there. Why don't more developers take advantage of it? To build a GMail app, to build a VirtualEarth app?

Then I thought, it might be the developers. I think traditional Flash users are the animator, graphics, designer types. That's half of the equation of what's really needed. The other half is the techy developers. But, why don't developers try to learn Flash if it could free them from the HTTP/HTML hell?

Could it be that simple? Where Silverlight will succeed and Flash/Flex will fail -- simply because developers can transfer some of what they already know to Silverlight? I don't think it's gonna be that easy. You're still gonna need to have both the developer & designer roles to make a good Silverlight app -- just like a good Flash app.

Microsoft have the developers. Macromedia... ummm Adobe have the designers. Can Blend/Designer steal more designers from Adobe than Flex/Apollo steal devs from Microsoft?

This is a good step towards a new interactive web, though. We definitely need a new web for interactions. And AJAX is only a stopgap at this point. Silverlight is gonna play a HUGE role now that broadband will let Silverlight be installed in less time than a Word splash screen.

Ready... set... go!

jamie wrote:

and last - does silverlight have an extention? or is it just WMV/WMA +  if it can read a flash file in WMP already (it does flawlessly) and i save/convert it to Silverlight (if that existed) what app would open the silverlight file?  premier? probably not... expression... ____?

The Silverlight's video format is WMV (& I believe I heard also the VC1 [microsoft's new hi-def vid format]). WMA of course, and I believe MP3 for audio.

I don't actually believe WMP "understands" SWF. I think what happens is that WMP opens up IE & IE is the thing that plays SWF.

SWF -> Silverlight converter? Don't count on any complicated content be portable.

jamie wrote:

- one reason ive never liked flash is even at "best quality" logos and graphics can look ..watery...   Will SL do vectors clearer - and again - if its wmv - is it all video res based?

I believe the watery effect is when someone tries to convert a raster image (bitmap / gif / jpg) to a vector format. It's an imperfect process, and when you zoom in, you'll see weird stuff. It's best to do logos w/ vectors from the beginning. I don't think it's Flash's fault. Silverlight graphical abilities are VERY similar when it comes to vectors.

jamie wrote:

- another reason i hate flash is the right mouse options.
will SL have a right mouse flyout - more like IE's - than wmp/flash player?  ( = copy, view source, refresh, etc) * not a useless flash one

Probably not, based on the beta.

jamie wrote:

- make any downloaded flash file play in either WMP or IE with no warnings or advanced setting changes for users (its already sandboxed and its not your issue for security - its adobes)

There's very little demand for this I think. Even if there were, good luck w/ those non-responsive primos over at the WMP team

footbalism wrote:

 Mike Swanson has been written a SWF to XAML converter which means that you can import your flash content to Silverlight

I believe that app only converts the graphics... but it's been a while since I last looked at it. I would think it'd be very hard to convert Flash's ActionScript to something usable by Silverlight.

Minh wrote:

But, why don't developers try to learn Flash if it could free them from the HTTP/HTML hell?

I wondered about that too. The whole HTTP/HTML/CSS disaster is definitely standing in the way of good web applications. It's such a hack: it's using something that's intended to be used as a medium with little interactivity (apart from linkage) for highly interactive applications.
Flash is much better at that, and much more consistent across platforms. When I was cursing CSS and HTTP at my job again, as I routinely do, I wondered why I didn't just make everything in flash. That's also when I realised that I absolutely despise most exclusively flash-based websites. There is no familiarity or consistency in the UI. Onscreen text can't be selected. Or it can, but it can't be copied with the standard shortcuts. You can't resize stuff that you can usually resize, et cetera. In other words, the controls often break the familiarity you've already grown accustomed to in your years of using Windows/MacOS/Linux/whatever.

The first platform that wins my loyalty is the one that is able to let me create applications as if they're normal Windows applications, and helps my applications -look- like they're normal Windows applications, rather than glorified webpages or something completely unfamiliar.