IE Team Interview?

BruceMorgan wrote:


Yeah.  Emotional maturity of 12 year olds.  Certainly web developers have many valid critcisms, complaints, concerns. 

Many of the comments express these in shall we say less than constructive ways.

Maybe it is just frustration at being ignored?

Rossj wrote:



BruceMorgan wrote:  Yeah.  Emotional maturity of 12 year olds.  Certainly web developers have many valid critcisms, complaints, concerns.  Many of the comments express these in shall we say less than constructive ways.

Maybe it is just frustration at being ignored?

It's a vicious circle though; they're being ignored because they act that way.

Rossj wrote:



BruceMorgan wrote:  Yeah.  Emotional maturity of 12 year olds.  Certainly web developers have many valid critcisms, complaints, concerns.  Many of the comments express these in shall we say less than constructive ways.

Maybe it is just frustration at being ignored?

Probably, but there are better ways of expressing ones frustration, right?

Sven Groot wrote:



Rossj wrote:  BruceMorgan wrote:  Yeah.  Emotional maturity of 12 year olds.  Certainly web developers have many valid critcisms, complaints, concerns.  Many of the comments express these in shall we say less than constructive ways. Maybe it is just frustration at being ignored?

It's a vicious circle though; they're being ignored because they act that way.

I've seen people make civil comments before, but I don't think the silence helps.  I was quite happy with the IE7 explanation - sorry, we've been lax, we'll start to catch up but it'll take some time. Cool, great, good luck. And then silence.


Don't get me wrong, I don't want to defend nasty behaviour, but it makes no sense to put it down just to emotional insecurity.  While MS puts *all attacks* of any kind down to that, they are just fueling the fire and the hatred.  Engagement might be a better option?

Sven Groot wrote:

I definitely agree the IE team is being too silent. I say give the lot of them a Twitter account so they can give us up to the minute information on what feature they're working on. Their bosses will like that too.

A rough pointer in general directions would do right now, detail can wait a while - it isn't really like anyone wants access to trident or anything.

I definitely agree the IE team is being too silent. I say give the lot of them a Twitter account so they can give us up to the minute information on what feature they're working on. Their bosses will like that too.

It seems to me that MS is reacting to the "overpromise and underdeliver" PR disaster of the early Longhorn/Vista concepts, but now they're going too far into the oposite direction. You need to find a middleground, guys (and gals)!

I'd just like to see a "we're not dead" message pop up every once in a while to show that they realize the community is grumbling.

Then again, the whole "we will deliver" Ultimate Extra's disaster wasn't too great either.

Sven Groot wrote:

It seems to me that MS is reacting to the "overpromise and underdeliver" PR disaster of the early Longhorn/Vista concepts, but now they're going too far into the oposite direction. You need to find a middleground, guys (and gals)!

This worked wonders for the new Zune, though.

came across this interesting blog post

http://home.jondavis.net:880/blog/post/2007/12/Option-Of-The-Unthinkable-Boycott-Internet-Explorer.aspx

It also reminds us that Microsoft has completely forgotten that Internet Explorer is a development platform. Not only that, but it is a Windows-only development platform, one that Microsoft should care deeply about for their own proprietary sake. And development platforms, as was demonstrated in Visual Studio, demand early communication.

the article is well written and i feel same way as the author

But now I am feeling such an aching burden in my heart. I feel like Microsoft's complacency has developed into betrayal. They don't care about client-side web developers anymore, I feel, not unless those are Silverlight folks.







also this here is new

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/ie-standards-chris-wilson

Rossj wrote:

I've seen people make civil comments before, but I don't think the silence helps.  I was quite happy with the IE7 explanation - sorry, we've been lax, we'll start to catch up but it'll take some time. Cool, great, good luck. And then silence.


Don't get me wrong, I don't want to defend nasty behaviour, but it makes no sense to put it down just to emotional insecurity.  While MS puts *all attacks* of any kind down to that, they are just fueling the fire and the hatred.  Engagement might be a better option?

What sort of engagement would help?

I don't think it's more of the "we've heard you, we're working on it, stay tuned" that Dave remembers so fondly. 

No, I think people want deep, meaningful, real engagement rather than chat sessions where 80% of the questions can't be answered.

We're not ready for that yet.  But as Dean said on the IEBlog, "You will hear a lot more from us soon on this blog and in other places."

As to the "we're not dead", well, that's obvious.  Remember my earlier comment about not bothering to argue obvious points.

Anyone with half an hour can find out that not only are we not dead, you can get all sorts of obvious clues as to what we're working on.  Just look at the job descriptions for the IE team on MS Careers.  Just having open heads should tell you we're not dead.  Just reading any of the bland MS spokesperson comments should say "they're not dead".  Just reading any of EricLaw's comments on the IEBlog should say we're not dead.  Just reading Chris Wilson's various interviews should tell you the direction we're going.

Put some effort into it, and you shall be rewarded.  Otherwise, patience is required.

BruceMorgan wrote:


I don't think it's more of the "we've heard you, we're working on it, stay tuned" that Dave remembers so fondly. 

No, I think people want deep, meaningful, real engagement rather than chat sessions where 80% of the questions can't be answered.

We're not ready for that yet.  But as Dean said on the IEBlog, "You will hear a lot more from us soon on this blog and in other places."

Agreed, but while we wait it would be great to know if I can spend more time looking at using CSS 3, or whether I can start looking at using the Canvas element more widely.  I doubt I'll ever be able to use SVG natively in IE ( ) but a note to that effect would be great.  I (personally) don't want deep detail right now, but just a blanket statement that "We're looking into improving our CSS implementation, and looking forwards towards HTML 5 - and no we won't be pushing silverlight integrated into the browser at installation".

BruceMorgan wrote:

Anyone with half an hour can find out that not only are we not dead, you can get all sorts of obvious clues as to what we're working on.  Just look at the job descriptions for the IE team on MS Careers.   Put some effort into it, and you shall be rewarded.  Otherwise, patience is required.

I'd rather have it from the horses mouth as it were, rather than guessing or jumping to conclusions. I'm not going to make plans on job adverts for people with experience of security and/or telemetry.  With IE being the only one not implementing (to my knowledge) the features I want to use - it is the IE team I am going to focus on...

BruceMorgan wrote:



Rossj wrote:  ... but while we wait it would be great to know if I can spend more time looking at using CSS 3, or whether I can start looking at using the Canvas element more widely.  I doubt I'll ever be able to use SVG natively in IE ( ) but a note to that effect would be great.  I (personally) don't want deep detail right now, but just a blanket statement that "We're looking into improving our CSS implementation, and looking forwards towards HTML 5 - and no we won't be pushing silverlight integrated into the browser at installation".

IMHO, blanket statements are not effective communication tools.  They just beg more questions.  We make vague high level statements, then we have a chat session, then people ask detailed questions, we can't anwer them, and there is dissatifaction. 

Okay, point taken.  How about a rough timescale? We'll be ready to talk in Feb ... or Jan ... or whatever?

Rossj wrote:

 ... but while we wait it would be great to know if I can spend more time looking at using CSS 3, or whether I can start looking at using the Canvas element more widely.  I doubt I'll ever be able to use SVG natively in IE ( ) but a note to that effect would be great.  I (personally) don't want deep detail right now, but just a blanket statement that "We're looking into improving our CSS implementation, and looking forwards towards HTML 5 - and no we won't be pushing silverlight integrated into the browser at installation".

IMHO, blanket statements are not effective communication tools.  They just beg more questions.  We make vague high level statements, then we have a chat session, then people ask detailed questions, we can't anwer them, and there is dissatifaction.  But they do satisfy a need.

Rossj wrote:



BruceMorgan wrote: Anyone with half an hour can find out that not only are we not dead, you can get all sorts of obvious clues as to what we're working on.  Just look at the job descriptions for the IE team on MS Careers.   Put some effort into it, and you shall be rewarded.  Otherwise, patience is required.

I'd rather have it from the horses mouth as it were, rather than guessing or jumping to conclusions. I'm not going to make plans on job adverts for people with experience of security and/or telemetry.

My point wasn't about making plans.  It was to respond to the hyperventilated blogosphere "Does the IE team even exist?" meme. 

That's self-evident to anyone who puts even a modicum of effort into their quest.

Rossj wrote:



BruceMorgan wrote:  Rossj wrote:  ... but while we wait it would be great to know if I can spend more time looking at using CSS 3, or whether I can start looking at using the Canvas element more widely.  I doubt I'll ever be able to use SVG natively in IE ( ) but a note to that effect would be great.  I (personally) don't want deep detail right now, but just a blanket statement that "We're looking into improving our CSS implementation, and looking forwards towards HTML 5 - and no we won't be pushing silverlight integrated into the browser at installation". IMHO, blanket statements are not effective communication tools.  They just beg more questions.  We make vague high level statements, then we have a chat session, then people ask detailed questions, we can't anwer them, and there is dissatifaction.

Okay, point taken.  How about a rough timescale? We'll be ready to talk in Feb ... or Jan ... or whatever?

Bruce,
I'd argue that the silence has been much more damaging than the situation where "We make vague high level statements, then we have a chat session, then people ask detailed questions, we can't anwer them, and there is dissatifaction. " The dissatisfaction being voiced in the comments on the IE team blog is greater than I've ever seen it. Some of the comments show huge misunderstanding amongst the web developer community that could be dispelled by constant repetition of the fact that the IE team knows it has work to do and hopes to address the key issues that cause the web developers pain.
Silence means no customer engagement, leaving customers feeling ignored and even leading to silly speculation that the team doesn't really exist. It's very important that customers are heard within the team and feel they are being heard. When customers feel they are being ignored they feel insulted and you lose their trust.
I'm sure IE8 will be amazing and win back some of that trust, and I really hope the team does deliver. However it'd be a lot easier to regain trust if there was an ongoing dialog with customers, even if it was only "We hear you and our goal is to ease the pain". I at least hope that is still the goal of the IE team

Cheers
-Dave
www.dmassy.com 

DMassy wrote:


Silence means no customer engagement, leaving customers feeling ignored and even leading to silly speculation that the team doesn't really exist. It's very important that customers are heard within the team and feel they are being heard. When customers feel they are being ignored they feel insulted and you lose their trust.
I'm sure IE8 will be amazing and win back some of that trust, and I really hope the team does deliver. However it'd be a lot easier to regain trust if there was an ongoing dialog with customers, even if it was only "We hear you and our goal is to ease the pain". I at least hope that is still the goal of the IE team

Cheers
-Dave
www.dmassy.com 

your right isnt the whole point of channel9 is to give insight into microsoft

to be more "open"



i mean one can get some very detailed info and lots of posts from lets say Silverlight team, which until 2.0 ships will remain in the realm of toy to play with

while on the other hand theres deafening silence from IE team who actually have a product thats used by millions of people



what are people expect to think when presented with above situation?




the fact that there questions and emotions and facts being raised means people still do care about IE, it be very disturbing day for they IE team when no one cares anymore (tho with such a large market share its unlikely to be anytime soon) or even worse they either have to join another team or loose their jobs

creditcard wrote:

Internet Explorer 8 should have better CSS2 support (and pass the Acid2 test). Microsoft also needs to get involved with HTML5 because right now Google is ruling the show in HTML5 participation. Like it or not HTML5 will become a standard and will likely be implemented by every web browser other then Internet Explorer. Microsoft needs to stop trying to build proprietary technologies on top of the web because they will fail and waste their time in the end. Silverlight is a waste of time just like DirectAnimation was before then. The web is an open platform get used to it Microsoft.

What about Flash? That's not open but is very successful.
Sliverlight is aimed at Flash not HTML. It has an uphill struggle...

creditcard wrote:

Silverlight is a waste of time just like DirectAnimation was before then. The web is an open platform get used to it Microsoft.

You sound like corona_coder when you say things like that.

PaoloM wrote:


It has been shown time and time again that people will not update their sites. Hence, if a site uses features that were present in IE5 or something, we do our best (up to a point) to keep those features working.

"Do not break the web" means exactly this.

you know I find the web getting more broken by the fact that more users/developers are dumping the IE browser/engine in favour of using another browser with more developer support, not just in the sites built to run better on it, but also the useful browser exstensions that go towards increased user browsing satisfaction.

I coudn't care less about visting some site built using IE5 features.. quite obviously if the site is that old then it most likely isn't getting any updates anyway, and if the infomation on it was that important i'd just use an older/compatible browser etc to get the infomation or find the infomation else where..

I'm more interested in visting modern and upto date sites. Thats not to say i don't understand your need to keep in some compability..and how it important in some situations, but for me I think some things are better broken in favour of something that is better overall, so long as it is actually better.

BruceMorgan wrote:

And when we don't get compatibility right, you can be damn sure it's a problem for us and our users.

you kow I think when users start screaming about compatibility issues and how you haven't got compability done right. Thats when I think you've for more other important issues to be having a good hard look at and sorting out.

I get the impression you guys spend far too much time wasted on looking at combatility issues when the competition is just moving ahead and is looking better with each and every more frequent update.

Its like xbox360 I wouldn't buy it to play an older game, but if the newer games made for it weren't actually any better than an older game, than thats when I'd start moaning about compatibility.

My point being is that IE8 needs to start making some strides in improving display performance(transparent .png etc,) page rendering,  making it easier for developers to build plugins and extend the browser cabilities... just generally actually giving users/developers a reason to come back. I don't really care if IE8 doesn't come with a better GUI or add better features with more cusomiziblity, built spell checker, split view tabs, mouse gestures, etc all those power features.. noo don't expect that or even expect to be anygood besed on IE7 efforts.. but I do hope for the 'trident rendering engine' to be a lot better.

I think i'd rather count on an IE shell/third party browser replacements like Maxthon, IE7pro avant, etc that just use the IE engine, while those developers can focus on taking on user feature requests and adding them in to browser to more finer degree with a better polish. Not to mention getting a decent customizable GUI right, but i'm talking about M2 there

"Another classic example is the IE download notification window, which loves to pop up, steal the focus, and tell you the great news: your download is complete! Oh, and your newly downloaded file is copying to its destination! Hooray! Unfortunately, this very same download notification dialog also contains a "Cancel" button. Guess which button just so happens to have the focus when this pops up? Why you'd want to cancel a download after it is complete is a mystery to me, but I've inadvertently pressed the space bar on this dialog more than once." from http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/ quoted for convenience.

would it be so hard to add just basic download manager like firefox.. i know some would just get a fully featured download manger anyway but this should be sorted out right?

And one last thing that I definitly want to see improved..


how something so simple could be released with IE7 and feel like it didn't even get the slightest bit of attention..says it all really