I love christmas, but your god seems to get in the way

As a child, I had an advent calendar, but I was mostly hoping for more and better chocolat.  I spent my adolescence time in germany, and I would do it again.  I had so much fun there, but again, most of the local fun-time was based around some form of "christ was born", "buy stuff".  It seemed, at the time, like a giant money making machine.

So,

I love christmas.  I love the lights.  I love the fact that "if you have no money, you can still have fun".  I love the lack of managerial monitoring.  I love the fun that comes from going to a bar on christmas eve and drinking more than you'd ever expect.  And paying for the rest of the bar.  I love the fact that you can still pay for the night and when its all over, you try to remember her name, but she's not insulted, and you aren't embarassed.  I love that when you decide to go get some food, you remember that most restaraunts are closed, and you laugh and then you try to make pancakes.

I just can't seem to find why god needs to be involved with all this fun.

I just want some damn pancakes.

ScanIAm wrote:



I just want some damn pancakes.

Most Denny's are 24/7 here in the states...at least the ones I've been to.

ScanIAm wrote:

I just can't seem to find why god needs to be involved with all this fun.

Me neither, especially wen we all know it's really a pagan festival!

I prefer to call it Yule.

Herbie

Dr Herbie wrote:

Me neither, especially wen we all know it's really a pagan festival!

I prefer to call it Yule.

Herbie

How very Northern Hemisphere of you...

Christmas is a religious festival?!?!?

I thought it was just my Wife's maiden name (and now my middle name - which leads to the marvellous line that I celebrate christmas particularly well because "Christmas is my middle name")

This all smacks of religious propaganda, and just trying to attach themselves to a successful commercial festival.

blehbleh wrote:

OR as a wise man said, he is long dead...

That would be Friedrich Nietzsche. It's probably one of the most misconstrued quotes of all time:
God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

evildictaitor wrote:

That would be Friedrich Nietzsche. It's probably one of the most misconstrued quotes of all time

Nietzsche and being misqouted and/or misinterpreted...... you don't say

Christmas is just the present label in certain parts of the world for what people have been doing on the northern hemisphere for all history: days get shorter and colder, so we make a bit of light, get together for shelter and warmth and eat a bit. It has been adapted to many traditions, but these are just labels of something that is pretty straightforward and logical.
Of course, higher levels of comfort through the ages make the original drivers for it less of a necessity and the labels and justifications for it get stranger, more abstract and distant from the practical causes it once had. But that also has been going on for milennia. So calling it Christmas, well, yeah, by any other name, I guess. And the name will change at some point.

ScanIAm wrote:

I just can't seem to find why god needs to be involved with all this fun.

I assume this comment is not serios.

If you don't want God to be involved do as some of my friends do and celebrate "Winter Gift Giving Ceremony."

ScanIAm,

I love celebrating your birthday, but why must it always be about you? I mean, what the hell. Can't we just celebrate your damn birthday without you? Why does it always have to be about you - you you you. If we could stop focusing our attention on you when your birthday comes, the majority of people could just eat cake and icecream, and have a great time. But noooooooo, I've got to see your name plastered up on the walls, written across the cake, stamped on the little hat that I'm asked to wear. I've got to see you praised all day long...it's ridiculous! I just want some damn cake!

Your Friend,

Jonathan Sampson

PS

No, Christmas isn't Jesus' birthday. But the point is, that is the traditional day on which we celebrate the birth of our Savior. You don't have to participate, much like Halloween. I don't necessarily think it's a great thing that children dress up like demons or decapitated corpses, but If they want to...who am I to tell them they're stupid? I'm not going to go online though and create a thread, "I love Halloween, but why does death and darkness seem to get in the way?"

While I will admit that the original post was a rabling, vodka fueled rant, there was, actually, a point within.

At best, christmas is a celebration of the birth of a myth and its subsequent cult.  The whole religious aspect has become secondary to simply taking some time off in the winter and spending some money because the economy depends on it. 

Religious folks get pissy when Wal*Mart uses 'happy holidays' instead of 'merry christmas'.  Militant athiests get pissy when a manger scene is shown on public property.

It's just one more 'thing', that is made worse by the addition of religion.

And, without fail, I can't get some decent pancakes because all the stores are closed.

brian.shapiro wrote:

People should learn not to view religion as threatening, just because it can be used politically in a wrong way.

I never saw how people could even view Christianity as threatening. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, honor your parents, be faithful to your spouse, educate your children, leave an inheritence for your family, work hard - all of these are central commands to Christians, and all of these are necessary to ensure a great economy and world.

Love God, and love your neighbor. Like Jesus said, that sums it all up. Why on earth would you be threatened by that.

Well the Christian backstory behind Christmas can be equally as nice a traditional part of the holiday. There are nice lessons and nice stories in the Bible after all.

Originally, yes, the festivals of the time were Pagan, but Christianity transformed it to what it is today. Even in the Middle Ages, people still celebrated the festival in a rowdy way. There was drinking and sex, etc, that some clergy complained about as Pagan. However, they accepted it because after 12 days of the Christmas festival, there was the holiday of Epiphany, which was to celebrate the revelation of God in the form of Christ. At this time, priests reminded their congregation that such rowdy haymaking would be dangerous if done year round, and that one should be selfless like Christ. So, the 12 days of festivity were promoted in some way as an example of how things could not be year round.

And actually, under this logic, the actual festivities had been transformed from their days as a Pagan holiday. Everything was turned upside down, where lords acted like serfs, and serfs like lords, kids acted as heads of the house holds, and some kid was appointed the anti-Pope as a way to mock the Pope's position in the world. This was all done as a reminder that positions in life were out of vanity and materiality. Sex was done out in the open and drinking was excused. But under the knowledge that this was the only time of the year that they could do all that.

So when people complain about how commercialism and crass materialism ruined the true spirit of Christmas, they're wrong, because turning values upside down during festivity was always part of Christmas since the middle ages.

However, Christmas also became a time to cut through this festivity with messages of goodwill and selflessness, transforming the Pagan celebration by keeping it in check with a moral message.

The 'goodwill and peace on earth' message of Christmas comes from the Christian religion transforming the Pagan holiday.

People should learn not to view religion as threatening, just because it can be used politically in a wrong way.

jsampsonPC wrote:



brian.shapiro wrote: People should learn not to view religion as threatening, just because it can be used politically in a wrong way.

I never saw how people could even view Christianity as threatening. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, honor your parents, be faithful to your spouse, educate your children, leave an inheritence for your family, work hard - all of these are central commands to Christians, and all of these are necessary to ensure a great economy and world.

Love God, and love your neighbor. Like Jesus said, that sums it all up. Why on earth would you be threatened by that.

jsampson, either way we can still appreciate and understand Greek mythology even though we don't believe in it. I think people can appreciate Christian messages and theology even if they aren't Christian.

I'm not Christian either, I was raised Jewish, and I wouldn't even be threatened by a manger scene going up either as long as it wasn't used as a tool by fundamentalists.

ScanIAm wrote:

At best, christmas is a celebration of the birth of a myth and its subsequent cult.  The whole religious aspect has become secondary to simply taking some time off in the winter and spending some money because the economy depends on it.

Whoa there! Are you saying things that you can't cooberate with hard-evidence? Are you saying things happened (or more specifically that they didn't) 2000 years ago? And you're saying so with no evidence?

That sounds awful "religious" if you don't mind. Off to the religion ghetto with you! In Soviet America, religion does not believe in you.

jsampsonPC wrote:



brian.shapiro wrote: People should learn not to view religion as threatening, just because it can be used politically in a wrong way.

I never saw how people could even view Christianity as threatening. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, honor your parents, be faithful to your spouse, educate your children, leave an inheritence for your family, work hard - all of these are central commands to Christians, and all of these are necessary to ensure a great economy and world.

Love God, and love your neighbor. Like Jesus said, that sums it all up. Why on earth would you be threatened by that.

That's the theory.

This is the reality:

http://www.warrenellis.com/?p=5361

ScanIAm wrote:



jsampsonPC wrote:  brian.shapiro wrote: People should learn not to view religion as threatening, just because it can be used politically in a wrong way. I never saw how people could even view Christianity as threatening. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, honor your parents, be faithful to your spouse, educate your children, leave an inheritence for your family, work hard - all of these are central commands to Christians, and all of these are necessary to ensure a great economy and world. Love God, and love your neighbor. Like Jesus said, that sums it all up. Why on earth would you be threatened by that.

That's the theory.

This is the reality:

http://www.warrenellis.com/?p=5361

Well if you really want to talk about that, the 'god hate fgs' people are a radical political response, to radical political movements of sexual liberation. First, they're more using the religion for politics; second, they're a political response to an equally radical movement.

ScanIAm wrote:


That's the theory.

This is the reality:

Well that's disturbing and non-biblical.

ScanIAm wrote:



jsampsonPC wrote:  brian.shapiro wrote: People should learn not to view religion as threatening, just because it can be used politically in a wrong way. I never saw how people could even view Christianity as threatening. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, honor your parents, be faithful to your spouse, educate your children, leave an inheritence for your family, work hard - all of these are central commands to Christians, and all of these are necessary to ensure a great economy and world. Love God, and love your neighbor. Like Jesus said, that sums it all up. Why on earth would you be threatened by that.

That's the theory.

This is the reality:

http://www.warrenellis.com/?p=5361

If that were the case, then I could blame atheism for murders since atheists have killed people, right? I mean, Jeffrey Dahmer claimed that he felt no remorse because he felt there was no God to answer to.

So do I blame atheism for his actions? Or him?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8218236246650096071&hl=en