So what is the difference between Avalon and Mac OX graphics

Can anyone shed light on me the difference between Avalon technology and the current abilities one can do with Graphics on a Mac? I have read (somewhere, possibly here, possibly /., possibly cnet, etc..) that Macs already support a lot of Hardware use for graphics ( I think Avalon and Longhorn are starting to make more use of it), and something involving vector graphics (not sure what it is, I'd like to know though).

Can anyone give a primer on it? So when I talk to my mac friends, I actually can have an intelligent conversation? Right now, the best I can say is, "It's really cool graphics, that have taken years and years to make. I know Apple did it in a much shorter time frame, but Microsoft is better, for some reason.."

Muchos Gracias.

I think Paul Thurott says it all on his blog.

http://www.internet-nexus.com/2004_03_07_archive.htm#107901636485647948

Why are you assuming the Microsoft version is better, "for some reason"? It sounds like you're not asking for a real comparison, so much as ammunition. Avalon is Microsoft's answer to "Quartz Compositor" (window and widget compositing for Quartz [2D postscript-model drawing] graphics that uses the GPU to do the work) and "Quartz Extreme 2D" (use of the GPU for 2D drawing itself). As of "Tiger" (Mac OS X 10.4), due this quarter, the Mac's display will be resolution independent as well.

I assume that, because I'm a developer on a Microsoft platform, and If I think anything other than that, I'd have to admit I'm working on an inferior machine!

Seriously, I *don't* know it's better. It might not be. I'm not really looking for ammunition, rather, information for a discussion. If it's not better, or more useful, please show me why, or why not. I'm only assuming it is, because I usually only go to MS-related info places. But my question in itself should show I'm looking for answers.

Hopefully, I"ll get some. (Haven't read the blog entry in the first reply yet.)

I wrote a fair amount about graphical composition in Avalon here:

http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/03/08/winfs_detail_3.html

That one's got a fair amount of discussion in the comments between me and some Mac people.  It gets quite heated, but you might find it interesting if you're looking for comparisons.

And also, I wrote some stuff on the graphics system here:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnlong/html/avalongraphics.asp

Beer28 wrote:

I wish they'd have abstracted their avalon through OpenGL instead so it could be ported easily.

But there's far less support (video card wise) for OpenGL on Windows. DirectX won the war on the Windows platform.

Beer28 wrote:

EDIT: I wish they'd have abstracted their avalon through OpenGL instead so it could be ported easily.

I don't think that would have made good business sense. If the code were available by OpenGL, and it were ported to a different platform, then what's to stop people from using the technology, implemented from the Microsoft technology, on that different platform and prevent a return on the many years investment of programing time, etc.

Still, it would make a good open source project for someone to start, if they haven't already.

Thanks for the links. They were quite helpful.

It's quite simple. MS wants people to use Windows. A lot of people already do use Windows, and they want to keep it that way or get even more users.

Making a shiny new technology, and then have it available on all your competitors platforms as well, provides no incentive for people to use Windows.

You and your friends might not like it, but it is a simple fact of the way business is done.

Part of it might also be to lure developers from Mac / Linux / *x / Commodore 64 back to Windows.

My $0.02

MisterDonut wrote:

Part of it might also be to lure developers from Mac / Linux back to Windows.

My $0.02

You know, somehow I can't see that happening.  C# is nice and all but Cocoa is a lot better than most people realise.

The biggest lure, for me, is employment. I am currently paid (well) for working on a Microsoft platform. Not many Cocoa around here (as you have put it), nor Mac development. Most of the jobs around here are VB.nET, VB (gasp), C#, or Java. Java is very popular, and I'll probably be spending more time with it as time goes on (maybe, I'll just use J#).

As long as Microsoft can keep me employed somewhere, or if Apple gets mass market share and can keep me employed, I'll code it. Free software, although I don't see how it will, fits in the same category. A good software engineer can pick up a language easily enough (maybe not *master* it in a week, but can work towards that goal in short order).

Mercenaries rule..

MisterDonut wrote:

The biggest lure, for me, is employment.

I got a job offer just yesterday to work on a .Net based CMS for a major telecom firm in The Hague. I'm going to have to turn it down though, there's no way I have time for it even if it's not a full-time position (and I expect it is).

I seem to get more job offers than spam nowadays. And people claim the economy is bad.

Rossj wrote:

MisterDonut wrote:Part of it might also be to lure developers from Mac / Linux back to Windows. My $0.02

You know, somehow I can't see that happening.  C# is nice and all but Cocoa is a lot better than most people realise.

I thought Carbon was the main API and Cocoa was something to do with connecting user events?

Anyway, I'm thinking about getting one of those minimacs to get a closer look at the osx platform because it does look very interesting. The only offputting thing is the thought of having to go back to an unmanaged development environment with C++ or Objective C.

rhm wrote:

I thought Carbon was the main API and Cocoa was something to do with connecting user events?

Nope. Carbon is the C based API which is essentially there for compat with OS9.  Unfortunately it gets used as lot (and by Apple too - see iTunes) because it is very easy to port from other platforms.  The principle is the same as Win32 - set up your UI and then loop on events.

Cocoa is Objective-C based and contains few added extras that you essentially 'get for free'. Funky effects and so on.  Objective-C is not particularly scarey if you know C and an OO language, and rather than being GC based has a simple ref count and an implicit 'delete this' when your retain count gets to 0.  Its generally the square brackets that put people off, and the named arguments - but it is a nice language and only takes a day or two to learn.

// Square bracket hell.
MyObject *obj = [[MyObject alloc] init];
[obj release]; // if noone has ever called retain on this object then dealloc will be called for you.

// Named arguments
[someObj doSomethingWithAnInt: 3 AndAString: @"Hello" AndAFloat: 2.0];

rhm wrote:

Anyway, I'm thinking about getting one of those minimacs to get a closer look at the osx platform because it does look very interesting. The only offputting thing is the thought of having to go back to an unmanaged development environment with C++ or Objective C.

See above. Yes it is unmanaged, but it does not rely on you calling malloc()/free() all the time, calling retain on an object you want to keep around and release when you are done with it isn't really that painful. Oh ObjC is also no longer interpreted into C before compilation, but is still essentially C underneath.

And you could use C if you were happy to write Carbon (a lot of the lower level stuff like CoreAudio is written in C as well).

I should stop now, this ain't a Mac forum and I don't want to get told off

Well, for now, I'm happily employed as a C# / VB.NET / SQL Developer / Lead. I'll wait until my job is outsourced to India or China or elsewhere before looking more..

Sven Groot wrote:

I got a job offer just yesterday to work on a .Net based CMS for a major telecom firm in The Hague. I'm going to have to turn it down though, there's no way I have time for it even if it's not a full-time position (and I expect it is).

I seem to get more job offers than spam nowadays. And people claim the economy is bad.

Someday, you will have to work to earn money Why do you turn all those job offers down?