InkMaster Extraordionaire

Oct 19, 2008 at 8:59 AM

So here I am today, using Vista, and find myself asking a question that no-one can answer - so I remember about this place!

Haven't visited in like... 3-4 years now probably so naturally forgot my old username/email/password everything so had to registed myself a new account ...oh well.

Anyways, the question....

I would like to find why the renderring of text in Vista (specifically asian (japanese/chinese/korean etc)) is so... random if you may call it that.

What I mean is this...

As you can clearly see, Vista is able to render (in this case Japanese) characters smoothly and without any problems, yet for whatever reason the text in the search box and the 'all programs' text is horribly pixelated. Obviously its not a problem of Vista not being *able* to do it, but just choosing not to. Same applies to all browsers (Safari being an exception) running on top of Windows - for whatever reason they choose to render asian characters in the most horribly ugly pixelated way possible...

So, if someone can explain to me why Vista does things this way... please do, I am curious.

-Michael
Sven Groot I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favourite store on the Citadel.

Oct 19, 2008 at 9:20 AM

The problem is that Vista is inconsistent in its usage of fonts. This is also true of the English version, although less noticeable.

Vista contains a brilliant new Japanese font called Meiryo. That's the nice one in your screenshot. Unfortunately, large parts of the UI use the old font, MS UI Gothic (which was the default in XP and earlier). This font uses bitmaps at small sizes and thus has no anti-aliasing, as you can see in your screenshot.

In the western versions, the Vista UI is a weird amalgation of three different fonts: Segoe UI (the new Vista font), Tahoma (the system font in Windows 2000 and XP), and MS Sans Serif (the system font in older versions of Windows). The casual observer probably won't really notice this; observant people do.

Any instance where Vista would normally use Segoe UI, it will use Meiryo in the Japanese version. Where it uses Tahoma or MS Sans Serif, it will use MS UI Gothic in the Japanese version.

Yes, this sucks, especially because the old Japanese fonts are so bad for screen reading compared to Meiryo. As far as I know, there is no solution, at least not an official one. Any font substitution tricks (which might work) will likely cause other layout issues as the different fonts have very different metrics.

For browsers, you can easily change the default, as I described in a recent blog post.
InkMaster Extraordionaire

Oct 19, 2008 at 9:40 AM

Sven Groot said:
The problem is that Vista is inconsistent in its usage of fonts. This is also true of the English version, although less noticeable.

Vista contains a brilliant new Japanese font called Meiryo. That's the nice one in your screenshot. Unfortunately, large parts of the UI use the old font, MS UI Gothic (which was the default in XP and earlier). This font uses bitmaps at small sizes and thus has no anti-aliasing, as you can see in your screenshot.

In the western versions, the Vista UI is a weird amalgation of three different fonts: Segoe UI (the new Vista font), Tahoma (the system font in Windows 2000 and XP), and MS Sans Serif (the system font in older versions of Windows). The casual observer probably won't really notice this; observant people do.

Any instance where Vista would normally use Segoe UI, it will use Meiryo in the Japanese version. Where it uses Tahoma or MS Sans Serif, it will use MS UI Gothic in the Japanese version.

Yes, this sucks, especially because the old Japanese fonts are so bad for screen reading compared to Meiryo. As far as I know, there is no solution, at least not an official one. Any font substitution tricks (which might work) will likely cause other layout issues as the different fonts have very different metrics.

For browsers, you can easily change the default, as I described in a recent blog post.
Interesting.. Thanks alot for the quick responce and sigh... if only Microsoft had a CEO which would be as much of a micromanager as Steve Jobs

Also, thanks for the solution for IE/FF ...Now if only I could change the font like that in Google Chrome

Is there any word on wether this situation will be improved in Windows 7?

Edit: Actually partially scratch that about Google, you can kinda replace some of the Japanese characters by changing the default sans-serif font to Meiryo, but even that changes at most 10% of the problems while creating plenty more - so hardly a solution
dentaku

Oct 19, 2008 at 11:34 AM

Let's hope Bill Hill reads this.

You should also post this to http://www.aerotaskforce.com/
Dodo I'm your creativity creator™ :)

Oct 19, 2008 at 12:11 PM

Sven Groot said:
The problem is that Vista is inconsistent in its usage of fonts. This is also true of the English version, although less noticeable.

Vista contains a brilliant new Japanese font called Meiryo. That's the nice one in your screenshot. Unfortunately, large parts of the UI use the old font, MS UI Gothic (which was the default in XP and earlier). This font uses bitmaps at small sizes and thus has no anti-aliasing, as you can see in your screenshot.

In the western versions, the Vista UI is a weird amalgation of three different fonts: Segoe UI (the new Vista font), Tahoma (the system font in Windows 2000 and XP), and MS Sans Serif (the system font in older versions of Windows). The casual observer probably won't really notice this; observant people do.

Any instance where Vista would normally use Segoe UI, it will use Meiryo in the Japanese version. Where it uses Tahoma or MS Sans Serif, it will use MS UI Gothic in the Japanese version.

Yes, this sucks, especially because the old Japanese fonts are so bad for screen reading compared to Meiryo. As far as I know, there is no solution, at least not an official one. Any font substitution tricks (which might work) will likely cause other layout issues as the different fonts have very different metrics.

For browsers, you can easily change the default, as I described in a recent blog post.

Find it in the Windows Registry under: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\FontLink\SystemLink
There's an entry for every font that has fallback enabled. It countains the fonts, comma seperated, with or without their DPI values, though I don't exactly know what they do, since changing them had no effect in my experiments. You may want to change the fallback for Tahoma (or even other fonts) to the same fallback values as for Segoe UI. I tried once to import the settings from Vista to XP for a better display, and I highly disrecommend that. The fonts turn unreadable and extremely small for some weird reason (and it wasn't the DPI value there).
If you need it later on as changing the values may cause a bluescreen at boot if you mess it up, requiring you to externally load your SYSTEM hive to edit it back I'll post it for you here:

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\FontLink\SystemLink]
"Segoe Media Center"=hex(7):74,00,61,00,68,00,6f,00,6d,00,61,00,2e,00,74,00,74,\
00,66,00,00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,\
2c,00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,6f,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,\
00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,\
32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,6d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,6c,00,69,00,75,\
00,62,00,2e,00,74,00,74,00,63,00,2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,\
69,00,55,00,2d,00,45,00,78,00,74,00,42,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,59,00,48,00,2e,\
00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,73,00,\
69,00,6d,00,73,00,75,00,6e,00,62,00,2e,00,74,00,74,00,66,00,00,00,4d,00,41,\
00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,\
2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,00,00
"Segoe Media Center Semibold"=hex(7):74,00,61,00,68,00,6f,00,6d,00,61,00,2e,00,\
74,00,74,00,66,00,00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,\
00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,6f,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,\
2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,\
00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,6d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,6c,00,\
69,00,75,00,62,00,2e,00,74,00,74,00,63,00,2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,\
00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,2d,00,45,00,78,00,74,00,42,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,59,00,\
48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,\
00,73,00,69,00,6d,00,73,00,75,00,6e,00,62,00,2e,00,74,00,74,00,66,00,00,00,\
4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,\
00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,00,00
"Segoe Media Center Light"=hex(7):74,00,61,00,68,00,6f,00,6d,00,61,00,2e,00,74,\
00,74,00,66,00,00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,\
43,00,2c,00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,6f,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,\
00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,\
31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,6d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,6c,00,69,\
00,75,00,62,00,2e,00,74,00,74,00,63,00,2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,\
4c,00,69,00,55,00,2d,00,45,00,78,00,74,00,42,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,59,00,48,\
00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,\
73,00,69,00,6d,00,73,00,75,00,6e,00,62,00,2e,00,74,00,74,00,66,00,00,00,4d,\
00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,\
38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,00,00
"Lucida Sans Unicode"=hex(7):4d,00,53,00,47,00,4f,00,54,00,48,00,49,00,43,00,\
2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,55,00,49,00,20,00,47,00,6f,\
00,74,00,68,00,69,00,63,00,00,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,\
2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,\
00,00,00,53,00,49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,\
53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,47,00,55,00,4c,00,49,00,4d,00,2e,\
00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,47,00,75,00,6c,00,69,00,6d,00,00,00,00,00
"Microsoft Sans Serif"=hex(7):4d,00,53,00,47,00,4f,00,54,00,48,00,49,00,43,00,\
2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,55,00,49,00,20,00,47,00,6f,\
00,74,00,68,00,69,00,63,00,00,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,\
2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,\
00,00,00,53,00,49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,\
53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,47,00,55,00,4c,00,49,00,4d,00,2e,\
00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,47,00,75,00,6c,00,69,00,6d,00,00,00,00,00
"Tahoma"=hex(7):4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,\
00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,6f,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,\
36,00,00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,\
00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,6f,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,47,00,4f,00,54,00,\
48,00,49,00,43,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,55,00,49,\
00,20,00,47,00,6f,00,74,00,68,00,69,00,63,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,\
2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,\
00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,59,00,48,00,\
2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,\
00,53,00,59,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,\
55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,\
00,00,00,4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,\
4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,50,\
00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,49,00,4d,00,53,00,\
55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,75,00,6e,\
00,00,00,47,00,55,00,4c,00,49,00,4d,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,47,00,\
75,00,6c,00,69,00,6d,00,00,00,00,00
"Segoe UI"=hex(7):54,00,41,00,48,00,4f,00,4d,00,41,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,\
00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,\
00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,6f,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,\
00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,\
00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,6f,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,47,00,4f,00,54,00,48,00,\
49,00,43,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,55,00,49,00,20,\
00,47,00,6f,00,74,00,68,00,69,00,63,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,2e,00,\
54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,\
00,4a,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,59,00,48,00,2e,00,\
54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,\
00,59,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,\
4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,\
00,4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,00,00
"MingLiU"=hex(7):53,00,49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,\
2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,\
00,43,00,48,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,4d,00,\
69,00,6e,00,63,00,68,00,6f,00,00,00,42,00,41,00,54,00,41,00,4e,00,47,00,2e,\
00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,42,00,61,00,74,00,61,00,6e,00,67,00,43,00,68,00,\
65,00,00,00,00,00
"PMingLiU"=hex(7):53,00,49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,\
2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,\
00,43,00,48,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,50,00,\
4d,00,69,00,6e,00,63,00,68,00,6f,00,00,00,42,00,41,00,54,00,41,00,4e,00,47,\
00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,42,00,61,00,74,00,61,00,6e,00,67,00,00,00,\
00,00
"MingLiU_HKSCS"=hex(7):4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,\
54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,49,\
00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,\
53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,43,00,48,00,4f,00,2e,\
00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,63,00,68,00,\
6f,00,00,00,42,00,41,00,54,00,41,00,4e,00,47,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,\
00,42,00,61,00,74,00,61,00,6e,00,67,00,43,00,68,00,65,00,00,00,00,00
"MingLiU-ExtB"=hex(7):4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,\
00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,49,00,\
4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,\
00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,43,00,48,00,4f,00,2e,00,\
54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,63,00,68,00,6f,\
00,00,00,42,00,41,00,54,00,41,00,4e,00,47,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,\
42,00,61,00,74,00,61,00,6e,00,67,00,43,00,68,00,65,00,00,00,00,00
"PMingLiU-ExtB"=hex(7):4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,\
54,00,43,00,2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,\
00,49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,\
6d,00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,43,00,48,00,4f,\
00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,\
63,00,68,00,6f,00,00,00,42,00,41,00,54,00,41,00,4e,00,47,00,2e,00,54,00,54,\
00,43,00,2c,00,42,00,61,00,74,00,61,00,6e,00,67,00,00,00,00,00
"MingLiU_HKSCS-ExtB"=hex(7):4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,\
00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,5f,00,48,00,\
4b,00,53,00,43,00,53,00,00,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,\
00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,\
53,00,49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,\
00,6d,00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,43,00,48,00,\
4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,63,\
00,68,00,6f,00,00,00,42,00,41,00,54,00,41,00,4e,00,47,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,\
43,00,2c,00,42,00,61,00,74,00,61,00,6e,00,67,00,43,00,68,00,65,00,00,00,00,\
00
"Microsoft JhengHei"=hex(7):4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,\
00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,4d,00,\
53,00,59,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,\
00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,59,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,4d,00,\
45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,65,00,69,\
00,72,00,79,00,6f,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,\
45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,65,00,69,\
00,72,00,79,00,6f,00,00,00,4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,\
54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,41,00,4c,\
00,47,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,00,00
"Microsoft JhengHei Bold"=hex(7):4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,\
00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,\
4d,00,53,00,59,00,48,00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,\
00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,59,00,48,00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,\
54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,4f,00,42,00,2e,00,54,\
00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,6f,00,20,00,42,00,6f,00,\
6c,00,64,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,\
00,52,00,59,00,4f,00,42,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,\
72,00,79,00,6f,00,20,00,42,00,6f,00,6c,00,64,00,00,00,4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,\
00,55,00,4e,00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,\
2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,4e,00,42,00,44,00,2e,\
00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,00,00
"SimSun"=hex(7):4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,\
00,2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,\
4d,00,49,00,4e,00,43,00,48,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,\
00,20,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,63,00,68,00,6f,00,00,00,42,00,41,00,54,00,\
41,00,4e,00,47,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,42,00,61,00,74,00,61,00,6e,\
00,67,00,00,00,00,00
"SimSun-ExtB"=hex(7):53,00,49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,\
00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,\
4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,\
00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,43,00,48,00,4f,00,\
2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,63,\
00,68,00,6f,00,00,00,42,00,41,00,54,00,41,00,4e,00,47,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,\
43,00,2c,00,42,00,61,00,74,00,61,00,6e,00,67,00,00,00,00,00
"NSimSun"=hex(7):4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,\
43,00,2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,4d,00,53,\
00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,43,00,48,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,\
53,00,20,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,63,00,68,00,6f,00,00,00,42,00,41,00,54,00,41,\
00,4e,00,47,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,42,00,61,00,74,00,61,00,6e,00,\
67,00,43,00,68,00,65,00,00,00,00,00
"Microsoft YaHei"=hex(7):53,00,49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,\
43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,\
00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,\
4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,\
00,59,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,\
6f,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,\
00,59,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,\
6f,00,00,00,4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,\
00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,\
4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,00,00
"Microsoft YaHei Bold"=hex(7):53,00,49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,\
54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4a,\
00,48,00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,\
39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,\
00,00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,4f,00,42,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,\
2c,00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,6f,00,20,00,42,00,6f,00,6c,00,64,00,2c,\
00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,\
4f,00,42,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,6f,\
00,20,00,42,00,6f,00,6c,00,64,00,00,00,4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,4e,00,\
42,00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,\
00,00,00,4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,4e,00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,\
46,00,00,00,00,00
"Meiryo"=hex(7):4d,00,53,00,47,00,4f,00,54,00,48,00,49,00,43,00,2e,00,54,00,54,\
00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,55,00,49,00,20,00,47,00,6f,00,74,00,68,00,\
69,00,63,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,\
00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,\
54,00,46,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,59,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,\
00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,59,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,\
54,00,46,00,00,00,4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,\
00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,\
55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,00,00
"Meiryo Bold"=hex(7):4d,00,53,00,47,00,4f,00,54,00,48,00,49,00,43,00,2e,00,54,\
00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,55,00,49,00,20,00,47,00,6f,00,74,00,\
68,00,69,00,63,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,\
00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4a,00,\
48,00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,59,00,48,00,42,\
00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,\
00,00,4d,00,53,00,59,00,48,00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,4d,\
00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,4e,00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,\
31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,41,00,4c,00,47,00,55,00,4e,\
00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,00,00
"MS Gothic"=hex(7):4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,\
43,00,2c,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,49,00,4d,\
00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,\
75,00,6e,00,00,00,47,00,55,00,4c,00,49,00,4d,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,\
00,47,00,75,00,6c,00,69,00,6d,00,43,00,68,00,65,00,00,00,00,00
"MS PGothic"=hex(7):4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,\
00,43,00,2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,\
49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,\
00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,47,00,55,00,4c,00,49,00,4d,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,\
43,00,2c,00,47,00,75,00,6c,00,69,00,6d,00,00,00,00,00
"MS UI Gothic"=hex(7):4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,\
00,43,00,2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,\
49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,\
00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,47,00,55,00,4c,00,49,00,4d,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,\
43,00,2c,00,47,00,75,00,6c,00,69,00,6d,00,00,00,00,00
"MS Mincho"=hex(7):4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,\
43,00,2c,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,49,00,4d,\
00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,\
75,00,6e,00,00,00,42,00,41,00,54,00,41,00,4e,00,47,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,\
00,2c,00,42,00,61,00,74,00,61,00,6e,00,67,00,00,00,00,00
"MS PMincho"=hex(7):4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,\
00,43,00,2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,\
49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,\
00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,42,00,41,00,54,00,41,00,4e,00,47,00,2e,00,54,00,\
54,00,43,00,2c,00,42,00,61,00,74,00,61,00,6e,00,67,00,00,00,00,00
"Batang"=hex(7):4d,00,53,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,43,00,48,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,54,\
00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,63,00,68,00,6f,00,\
00,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,\
00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,49,00,4d,00,\
53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,75,\
00,6e,00,00,00,00,00
"BatangChe"=hex(7):4d,00,53,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,43,00,48,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,\
54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,63,00,68,00,6f,00,00,\
00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,\
4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,\
00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,\
00,00,00,00
"Dotum"=hex(7):4d,00,53,00,47,00,4f,00,54,00,48,00,49,00,43,00,2e,00,54,00,54,\
00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,55,00,49,00,20,00,47,00,6f,00,74,00,68,00,\
69,00,63,00,00,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,\
00,43,00,2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,\
49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,\
00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,00,00
"DotumChe"=hex(7):4d,00,53,00,47,00,4f,00,54,00,48,00,49,00,43,00,2e,00,54,00,\
54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,47,00,6f,00,74,00,68,00,69,00,63,00,00,\
00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,\
4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,\
00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,\
00,00,00,00
"Gulim"=hex(7):4d,00,53,00,47,00,4f,00,54,00,48,00,49,00,43,00,2e,00,54,00,54,\
00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,55,00,49,00,20,00,47,00,6f,00,74,00,68,00,\
69,00,63,00,00,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,\
00,43,00,2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,\
49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,\
00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,00,00,00,00
"GulimChe"=hex(7):4d,00,53,00,47,00,4f,00,54,00,48,00,49,00,43,00,2e,00,54,00,\
54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,47,00,6f,00,74,00,68,00,69,00,63,00,00,\
00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,\
4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,49,00,4d,00,53,00,55,\
00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,75,00,6e,00,\
00,00,00,00
"Gungsuh"=hex(7):4d,00,53,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,43,00,48,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,00,\
54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,63,00,68,00,6f,\
00,00,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,\
2c,00,50,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,49,00,4d,\
00,53,00,55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,\
75,00,6e,00,00,00,00,00
"GungsuhChe"=hex(7):4d,00,53,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,43,00,48,00,4f,00,2e,00,54,\
00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,53,00,20,00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,63,00,68,00,6f,00,\
00,00,4d,00,49,00,4e,00,47,00,4c,00,49,00,55,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,\
00,4d,00,69,00,6e,00,67,00,4c,00,69,00,55,00,00,00,53,00,49,00,4d,00,53,00,\
55,00,4e,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,53,00,69,00,6d,00,53,00,75,00,6e,\
00,00,00,00,00
"Malgun Gothic"=hex(7):47,00,55,00,4c,00,49,00,4d,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,\
2c,00,47,00,75,00,6c,00,69,00,6d,00,00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,4f,\
00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,6f,00,2c,00,\
31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,4f,\
00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,6f,00,00,00,\
4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,\
00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,\
4d,00,53,00,59,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,\
00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,59,00,48,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,\
00,00
"Malgun Gothic Bold"=hex(7):47,00,55,00,4c,00,49,00,4d,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,\
00,2c,00,47,00,75,00,6c,00,69,00,6d,00,00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,\
4f,00,42,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,6f,\
00,20,00,42,00,6f,00,6c,00,64,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,\
00,00,4d,00,45,00,49,00,52,00,59,00,4f,00,42,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,43,00,2c,\
00,4d,00,65,00,69,00,72,00,79,00,6f,00,20,00,42,00,6f,00,6c,00,64,00,00,00,\
4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,\
00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,4a,00,48,00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,\
54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,59,00,48,00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,\
00,46,00,2c,00,31,00,32,00,38,00,2c,00,39,00,36,00,00,00,4d,00,53,00,59,00,\
48,00,42,00,44,00,2e,00,54,00,54,00,46,00,00,00,00,00

Though, I really hope, you won't need that stuff
InkMaster Extraordionaire

Oct 19, 2008 at 4:07 PM

dentaku said:
Let's hope Bill Hill reads this.

You should also post this to http://www.aerotaskforce.com/
Interesting, never saw that site before; thanks alot for the link.
evildictaitor strcpy(malloc(4), "Oh noes!");

Oct 19, 2008 at 4:26 PM

InkMaster said:

Sven Groot said:

*snip*

Interesting.. Thanks alot for the quick responce and sigh... if only Microsoft had a CEO which would be as much of a micromanager as Steve Jobs

Also, thanks for the solution for IE/FF ...Now if only I could change the font like that in Google Chrome

Is there any word on wether this situation will be improved in Windows 7?

Edit: Actually partially scratch that about Google, you can kinda replace some of the Japanese characters by changing the default sans-serif font to Meiryo, but even that changes at most 10% of the problems while creating plenty more - so hardly a solution

"if only Microsoft had a CEO which would be as much of a micromanager as Steve Jobs"

Good god man! That would be terrible. Perhaps they should make a "product consistency" department who check through the programs and say "Good heavens, this control panel is partly nice and Vista-y and partly Windows XP dialogs" or "By jove, this start menu uses partly nice fonts and partly old sucky ones".

Also, for reasons I won't go into here, any such department would have to be staffed by people with British accents and bowler hats.
InkMaster Extraordionaire

Oct 19, 2008 at 4:33 PM

evildictaitor said:

InkMaster said:

*snip*

"if only Microsoft had a CEO which would be as much of a micromanager as Steve Jobs"

Good god man! That would be terrible. Perhaps they should make a "product consistency" department who check through the programs and say "Good heavens, this control panel is partly nice and Vista-y and partly Windows XP dialogs" or "By jove, this start menu uses partly nice fonts and partly old sucky ones".

Also, for reasons I won't go into here, any such department would have to be staffed by people with British accents and bowler hats.

Great, more departments , as if Microsoft didn't already have a hundred or two departments which still didn't learn how to work with one another - but why would it be bad to have a micromanager CEO? Better software, better hardware, etc etc, I don't see a negative side to it... :/
joechung

Oct 19, 2008 at 4:49 PM

InkMaster said:

evildictaitor said:

*snip*

Great, more departments , as if Microsoft didn't already have a hundred or two departments which still didn't learn how to work with one another - but why would it be bad to have a micromanager CEO? Better software, better hardware, etc etc, I don't see a negative side to it... :/
Attention to detail is good. However, micromanagement is bad. Micromanagers typically lack perspective, paying too much attention to insignificant details while missing out on the big picture.
InkMaster Extraordionaire

Oct 19, 2008 at 4:53 PM

joechung said:

InkMaster said:

*snip*

Attention to detail is good. However, micromanagement is bad. Micromanagers typically lack perspective, paying too much attention to insignificant details while missing out on the big picture.
ok ok, fine, lets find a new CEO which actually pays attention to the detail of his company's products

Not to offend anyone here... but Ballmer was never an inovator nor was he ever was famous for paying attention to details. He is merely a salesman, nothing beyond that.
evildictaitor strcpy(malloc(4), "Oh noes!");

Oct 19, 2008 at 5:51 PM

InkMaster said:

joechung said:

*snip*

ok ok, fine, lets find a new CEO which actually pays attention to the detail of his company's products

Not to offend anyone here... but Ballmer was never an inovator nor was he ever was famous for paying attention to details. He is merely a salesman, nothing beyond that.

A damn good businessman, but he's not a technical person - nor should he be. He's the c-E-o not the c-T-o. It's his job to make and oversee good business decisions. He should care about stock prices and takeovers and axing jobs and getting vendor buyin. He certainly shouldn't be concerning himself over fonts in the start menu, or other micromanaging things. It's not his job to do those things, and if he was doing them, he would spend less time on making Microsoft a good business, and Microsoft would be worse off as a result. Worse, if he is making all of the small decisions this means that he doesn't trust anyone further down the company to make decisions at that level, and if every decision at or above the level of significance of "what font should I use" had to pass through Ballmer's office, nothing at all would get done.
InkMaster Extraordionaire

Oct 19, 2008 at 7:16 PM

evildictaitor said:

InkMaster said:

*snip*

A damn good businessman, but he's not a technical person - nor should he be. He's the c-E-o not the c-T-o. It's his job to make and oversee good business decisions. He should care about stock prices and takeovers and axing jobs and getting vendor buyin. He certainly shouldn't be concerning himself over fonts in the start menu, or other micromanaging things. It's not his job to do those things, and if he was doing them, he would spend less time on making Microsoft a good business, and Microsoft would be worse off as a result. Worse, if he is making all of the small decisions this means that he doesn't trust anyone further down the company to make decisions at that level, and if every decision at or above the level of significance of "what font should I use" had to pass through Ballmer's office, nothing at all would get done.
"but he's not a technical person "

So you're saying that the head of the biggest tech company in the world shouldn't know atleast his own product?

"if he is making all of the small decisions this means that he doesn't trust anyone further down the company to make decisions at that level"

Well... if they're too incompitent to the trusted with something that small.... guess one has to either do everything himself or find people who are more qualified to lead a team of developers and designers.

Just the way I see it is like this; IF you're hired to manage a company, then manage it, hire compitent project leaders, and oversee those who report to you and if they're not doign a good enough job managing their team replace them with someone more compitent...
evildictaitor strcpy(malloc(4), "Oh noes!");

Oct 19, 2008 at 7:57 PM

InkMaster said:

evildictaitor said:

*snip*

"but he's not a technical person "

So you're saying that the head of the biggest tech company in the world shouldn't know atleast his own product?

"if he is making all of the small decisions this means that he doesn't trust anyone further down the company to make decisions at that level"

Well... if they're too incompitent to the trusted with something that small.... guess one has to either do everything himself or find people who are more qualified to lead a team of developers and designers.

Just the way I see it is like this; IF you're hired to manage a company, then manage it, hire compitent project leaders, and oversee those who report to you and if they're not doign a good enough job managing their team replace them with someone more compitent...

** So you're saying that the head of the biggest tech company in the world shouldn't know atleast his own product?

He needs to know what it IS, and how to sell it. In terms of technical knowledge he doesn't need to know any more about Windows or Office than the average joe off the street.

** Well... if they're too incompitent to the trusted with something that small.... guess one has to either do everything himself or find people who are more qualified to lead a team of developers and designers.

If Ballmer tried to oversee all of the decisions in the company at that level personally, Microsoft's productivity would stop overnight, and it would drive Microsoft straight into the ground. The board don't and shouldn't have any control over the finer aspects of product development (like which fonts to use, which programming language, how the threads are partitioned, who does what specifically in each project etc) - these decisions needs time and care given to them by someone close to the team who are implementing it, or need to be outsourced to experts in the field. If members of the board had to do micromanaging at this level they would have no time left to look at the "bigger picture", and because Microsoft is big and the board members few, they would be required to give hasty ill-thought out decisions due to time-constraints, and would become a bottleneck for productivity in the company. Additionally, if you're not going to give any of the managers lower down the company any kind of responsibility to make decisions over their product, they'll leave and go work for someone else.

** Just the way I see it is like this; IF you're hired to manage a company, then manage it, hire compitent project leaders, and oversee those who report to you and if they're not doign a good enough job managing their team replace them with someone more compitent...

If I were assigned to a management role, I would be responsible for managing people and helping make the decisions for the department. If I were elected to the board of a corporation, I would concentrate on maximising the profits and sustainability of the corporation, and assign managers to oversee the various aspects of the company and report back to me. I would certainly be careful who I chose to report back to me, and that they were honest and competent, but I certainly wouldn't be firing them because the japanese version of one of my products didn't have anti-aliasing on one of the fonts. In fact, if they started to tell me about it I would say "go sort it out .. it's not my concern". If a customer complained about it, I would pass them on to whomever I had assigned that job to.

Delegation isn't just about offloading your own work onto someone else so you don't have to. It's about assigning responsibilities and lines of accountability through a corporate structure. If your company gets beyond about 20 or so people, then not having anyone dedicating themselves to knowing and planning the "bigger picture", or having senior managers micromanaging the minor decisions of the various products is a sure sign that the company needs new management.
Yggdrasil Pour me a cab, 'cause I can't drink no more.

Oct 20, 2008 at 12:26 AM

evildictaitor said:

InkMaster said:

*snip*

** So you're saying that the head of the biggest tech company in the world shouldn't know atleast his own product?

He needs to know what it IS, and how to sell it. In terms of technical knowledge he doesn't need to know any more about Windows or Office than the average joe off the street.

** Well... if they're too incompitent to the trusted with something that small.... guess one has to either do everything himself or find people who are more qualified to lead a team of developers and designers.

If Ballmer tried to oversee all of the decisions in the company at that level personally, Microsoft's productivity would stop overnight, and it would drive Microsoft straight into the ground. The board don't and shouldn't have any control over the finer aspects of product development (like which fonts to use, which programming language, how the threads are partitioned, who does what specifically in each project etc) - these decisions needs time and care given to them by someone close to the team who are implementing it, or need to be outsourced to experts in the field. If members of the board had to do micromanaging at this level they would have no time left to look at the "bigger picture", and because Microsoft is big and the board members few, they would be required to give hasty ill-thought out decisions due to time-constraints, and would become a bottleneck for productivity in the company. Additionally, if you're not going to give any of the managers lower down the company any kind of responsibility to make decisions over their product, they'll leave and go work for someone else.

** Just the way I see it is like this; IF you're hired to manage a company, then manage it, hire compitent project leaders, and oversee those who report to you and if they're not doign a good enough job managing their team replace them with someone more compitent...

If I were assigned to a management role, I would be responsible for managing people and helping make the decisions for the department. If I were elected to the board of a corporation, I would concentrate on maximising the profits and sustainability of the corporation, and assign managers to oversee the various aspects of the company and report back to me. I would certainly be careful who I chose to report back to me, and that they were honest and competent, but I certainly wouldn't be firing them because the japanese version of one of my products didn't have anti-aliasing on one of the fonts. In fact, if they started to tell me about it I would say "go sort it out .. it's not my concern". If a customer complained about it, I would pass them on to whomever I had assigned that job to.

Delegation isn't just about offloading your own work onto someone else so you don't have to. It's about assigning responsibilities and lines of accountability through a corporate structure. If your company gets beyond about 20 or so people, then not having anyone dedicating themselves to knowing and planning the "bigger picture", or having senior managers micromanaging the minor decisions of the various products is a sure sign that the company needs new management.

Whenever someone complains about a relatively minor issue - ugly fonts in Vista, their favorite button missing in Explorer, whatever, always ask yourself what you would trade for that functionality. Stability? Performance? Because I assure you that somewhere down the line some manager axed this little feature - like going over all dialogs and standardizing all fonts - in favor of another. It might not have been the ideal choice for me, and it might have been a bad choice for most people too - decisions aren't always made for the right reasons - but it was a decision that was made. It also might just be an oversight, but I find it less likely with a feature as visually noticeable as fonts. No amount of micromanagement would have helped here. If a micromanaging boss would have come to the Japanese Windows team and told them to fix the fonts, they would have whipped out their gantt charts and asked him what he wanted to remove instead. Nothing is free.
evildictaitor strcpy(malloc(4), "Oh noes!");

Oct 20, 2008 at 1:47 AM

Yggdrasil said:

evildictaitor said:

*snip*

Whenever someone complains about a relatively minor issue - ugly fonts in Vista, their favorite button missing in Explorer, whatever, always ask yourself what you would trade for that functionality. Stability? Performance? Because I assure you that somewhere down the line some manager axed this little feature - like going over all dialogs and standardizing all fonts - in favor of another. It might not have been the ideal choice for me, and it might have been a bad choice for most people too - decisions aren't always made for the right reasons - but it was a decision that was made. It also might just be an oversight, but I find it less likely with a feature as visually noticeable as fonts. No amount of micromanagement would have helped here. If a micromanaging boss would have come to the Japanese Windows team and told them to fix the fonts, they would have whipped out their gantt charts and asked him what he wanted to remove instead. Nothing is free.

To be honest, I suspect that the task of going through such a large project for consistency, particularly when it's built on an older code-base that isn't being rewritten - it's being upgraded - that if you don't have a dedicated team who go through the various builds and look for consistency errors that you just end up with everyone ignoring it. The task is too big to be assimmilated into a single team - it's spans the entire of the Operating System - and it's too small to have been thought worth having a dedicated department for - imo a mistake.
Yggdrasil Pour me a cab, 'cause I can't drink no more.

Oct 20, 2008 at 5:18 AM

evildictaitor said:

Yggdrasil said:

*snip*

To be honest, I suspect that the task of going through such a large project for consistency, particularly when it's built on an older code-base that isn't being rewritten - it's being upgraded - that if you don't have a dedicated team who go through the various builds and look for consistency errors that you just end up with everyone ignoring it. The task is too big to be assimmilated into a single team - it's spans the entire of the Operating System - and it's too small to have been thought worth having a dedicated department for - imo a mistake.

Exactly what I'm saying. It's not that someone accidently set one textbox as UI Gothic and another as Meiryo by accident. It's that someone decided that it's not a big enough problem to warrant fixing. I agree it's a shame, but I don't think it's the end of the world, either.
evildictaitor strcpy(malloc(4), "Oh noes!");

Oct 20, 2008 at 7:27 AM

Yggdrasil said:

evildictaitor said:

*snip*

Exactly what I'm saying. It's not that someone accidently set one textbox as UI Gothic and another as Meiryo by accident. It's that someone decided that it's not a big enough problem to warrant fixing. I agree it's a shame, but I don't think it's the end of the world, either.
My question to you is about the phrase "someone decided that it's not a big enough problem to warrant fixing". The word "decided" is an active verb and suggests that the question was mooted and discussed and later dismissed. I suspect it was never discussed - perhaps because someone decided that it wasn't worth discussing, or perhaps the question itself never came up anywhere. The difference is whether someone somewhere made a bad decision, or whether nobody made a decision at all. One suggests incompetence. The other just suggests miscommunication.
InkMaster Extraordionaire

Oct 21, 2008 at 11:52 AM

evildictaitor said:

InkMaster said:

*snip*

** So you're saying that the head of the biggest tech company in the world shouldn't know atleast his own product?

He needs to know what it IS, and how to sell it. In terms of technical knowledge he doesn't need to know any more about Windows or Office than the average joe off the street.

** Well... if they're too incompitent to the trusted with something that small.... guess one has to either do everything himself or find people who are more qualified to lead a team of developers and designers.

If Ballmer tried to oversee all of the decisions in the company at that level personally, Microsoft's productivity would stop overnight, and it would drive Microsoft straight into the ground. The board don't and shouldn't have any control over the finer aspects of product development (like which fonts to use, which programming language, how the threads are partitioned, who does what specifically in each project etc) - these decisions needs time and care given to them by someone close to the team who are implementing it, or need to be outsourced to experts in the field. If members of the board had to do micromanaging at this level they would have no time left to look at the "bigger picture", and because Microsoft is big and the board members few, they would be required to give hasty ill-thought out decisions due to time-constraints, and would become a bottleneck for productivity in the company. Additionally, if you're not going to give any of the managers lower down the company any kind of responsibility to make decisions over their product, they'll leave and go work for someone else.

** Just the way I see it is like this; IF you're hired to manage a company, then manage it, hire compitent project leaders, and oversee those who report to you and if they're not doign a good enough job managing their team replace them with someone more compitent...

If I were assigned to a management role, I would be responsible for managing people and helping make the decisions for the department. If I were elected to the board of a corporation, I would concentrate on maximising the profits and sustainability of the corporation, and assign managers to oversee the various aspects of the company and report back to me. I would certainly be careful who I chose to report back to me, and that they were honest and competent, but I certainly wouldn't be firing them because the japanese version of one of my products didn't have anti-aliasing on one of the fonts. In fact, if they started to tell me about it I would say "go sort it out .. it's not my concern". If a customer complained about it, I would pass them on to whomever I had assigned that job to.

Delegation isn't just about offloading your own work onto someone else so you don't have to. It's about assigning responsibilities and lines of accountability through a corporate structure. If your company gets beyond about 20 or so people, then not having anyone dedicating themselves to knowing and planning the "bigger picture", or having senior managers micromanaging the minor decisions of the various products is a sure sign that the company needs new management.

"If your company gets beyond about 20 or so people, then not having anyone dedicating themselves to knowing and planning the "bigger picture", or having senior managers micromanaging the minor decisions of the various products is a sure sign that the company needs new management."

Ok then, lets forget about Ballmer. Lets say, he's not to blame for his company's products. Who can we blame for the "Windows experience" then? I propose Julie Larson-Green as the corporate vp of "windows experience" http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/julielar/

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