evildictaitor said:

Someone with a degree in CS needs to have demonstrated that he/she has programmed outside of just his/her college studies to get my attention - that said, someone with just hobby projects and no formal experience is likely to have a very narrow understanding of design process and other coding styles.

Another important thing of a CS degree is that it teaches you the limitations of computer science - there are lots of things computers can't do, no matter how cleverly you try and make it.

ManipUni said:

evildictaitor said:

*snip*

Do I think you need a degree if you can already do the job? No...
Do I think other people (inc. Your bosses) overvalue a degree? Yes...
Do I think a degree is worth while? Yes... Because other people overvalue them...

Ultimately a degree is valuable in what you learn but 90% of its value comes from a piece of paper that a lot of people respect. Similarly to going to a "brand" University (e.g. Oxford, Harvard, Stanford, etc) they might not provide you with a better education but just by the respect people give them they have power.

That is just the world we live in. Businesses and the people behind them have to cover their own asses and a Collage/University is a great scapegoat if someone turns out to be terrible. "How was I meant to know they couldn't code? They had a degree from X!"

If you want to go and study to actually learn something then I congratulate you and the many thousands of unemployed art/drama students that went before you...

dpratt71 said:

ManipUni said:

*snip*

That's pretty much my perspective, Manip.

Is anyone willing to out themselves as a working professional without a degree? I don't have one.

Of the people I work with, I'm not aware of anyone else who does not have a degree. What do we think is the percentage of people working in this industry who don't have a degree?

leeappdalecom said:

dpratt71 said:

*snip*

I've been working for 10 years in the industry without a degree and have worked for many large companies and not once has not having a degree been a problem.

I'm currently doing a part time degree for personal gain really and I haven't learned anything yet that would be valuable in a commercial environment.  I think wanting to learn, having common sense and ambition will get you on in life far more than a university education.

At 25 I had started my own company and working as a consultant earning a very good wage through sheer determination.  Am I the cleverest person out there? No not even close my maths is terrible but I know how to develop and I get projects developed successfully and guess what that's what companies want, good value, hard working people that get the job done.

How did I get into IT without a degree, well I started from the very bottom, I learnt my worth at each level of my career the more projects I completed, the more knowledge I gained the more I was worth simple as that. 

W3bbo said:

leeappdalecom said:

*snip*

I suppose when you're contracting or consulting you sell your company to the client, rather than the people that make it up (even if it's only one or two people), and that's where past success is more important.

leeappdalecom said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

True but when I was working permanent for companies I didn't find not having a degree an issue as my past experience and subject knowledge was sufficient.

I suppose there is no right or wrong way and id rather have a degree than not but it's only a small part of the overall package.

Bass said:

leeappdalecom said:

*snip*

Well I think one value of the degree is you don't have to start at the very bottom. Especially graduating from a place like MIT and Stanford, you have no problems finding a job paying $130,000+ with no experience. Really from any old CS school you'll make at least $55-60k. Microsoft and Google used to hire college grads directly (apparently not anymore due to economy), and six figure salaries are not unheard of. But really the higher level your education the more they often pay. MSCS is worth more then BSCS, PHD is worth the most.

You can work your way up to a salary like this without a degree. Some places though, specifically list a requirement as a CS degree. It's possible to get around that I guess, but usually they mean it. You risk having HR throwing your Resume away in seconds. My girlfriend used to work in recruiting, that's basically what they did (and surprisingly a A LOT of computer people lack CS degrees, so it's a really easy way to narrow down applicants).

The other option is to start your own company, but with all these big corporations around, it takes a lot of effort to be competitive, I think.

Bass said:

leeappdalecom said:

*snip*

Well I think one value of the degree is you don't have to start at the very bottom. Especially graduating from a place like MIT and Stanford, you have no problems finding a job paying $130,000+ with no experience. Really from any old CS school you'll make at least $55-60k. Microsoft and Google used to hire college grads directly (apparently not anymore due to economy), and six figure salaries are not unheard of. But really the higher level your education the more they often pay. MSCS is worth more then BSCS, PHD is worth the most.

You can work your way up to a salary like this without a degree. Some places though, specifically list a requirement as a CS degree. It's possible to get around that I guess, but usually they mean it. You risk having HR throwing your Resume away in seconds. My girlfriend used to work in recruiting, that's basically what they did (and surprisingly a A LOT of computer people lack CS degrees, so it's a really easy way to narrow down applicants).

The other option is to start your own company, but with all these big corporations around, it takes a lot of effort to be competitive, I think.

blowdart said:

Of course as you gather more experience the worth of your degree gets less and less (unless you're going for snobby consultancies where it's more about talking than doing)

Certainly employers may filter junior employees by the presence of a degree (although small shops won't care, nor will those with technical staff who can override personal and their blinkers).

But once you a decent amount of experience under your belt (and realise all that theory you learned can be wrong, or too heavy, or misapplied, just like patterns can) then the experience is going to count for more.

When I've been recruiting I've ignored degrees. And MSCDs.

Minh said:

blowdart said:

*snip*

When I've been recruiting I've ignored degrees. And MSCDs.

Yeah, but... the example I often cite is if you have 2 seemingly equal candidates... and one has a degree  and/or Certs...  they aught to count for something....

I know "equal" is hard to parse... but you get those once in a while...

Of course as you gather more experience the worth of your degree gets less and less (unless you're going for snobby consultancies where it's more about talking than doing)

You're such a cynic 
A CS degree is meant as a background for your future self... To be built upon... not meant as replacement for real-life experiece...

Sven Groot said:

I think one big advantage of doing a CS degree hasn't been mentioned yet. When doing a degree, you spend several years surrounded by very smart people with a far more diverse variety of specialisations than you're likely to get at a single company. A smart mind can make good use of those resources. And of course if you want to go into academia or research, it's pretty much a must.

You can get a degree by going to classes and writing a thesis and doing nothing else. Then it doesn't have much more merit than the piece of paper at the end, which may give you a slight edge in a job interview. But if you actually open your eyes and look around while you're there, you can find there's a lot more to be gained than just a piece of paper. And sometimes while doing that, you get an opportunity that you would never have gotten otherwise. Like the opportunity to go study in Japan for a few years.

Just my 2 yen.

cheong said:

Sven Groot said:

*snip*

> When doing a degree, you spend several years surrounded by very smart people with a far more diverse variety of specialisations than you're likely to get at a single company.

It gain of it depends. If you've been classes where all teaching staffs having no experience on real world programming, the gain may be negative. (In the "programming project" which worth 6 credits, the curriculum said we shall form groups to produce a website following the software development cycle. Being taught by someone with no real world experience, while the workflow is the same as on the textbook, the detail is quite "acedemic", I'd say...

cheong said:

Sven Groot said:

*snip*

> When doing a degree, you spend several years surrounded by very smart people with a far more diverse variety of specialisations than you're likely to get at a single company.

It gain of it depends. If you've been classes where all teaching staffs having no experience on real world programming, the gain may be negative. (In the "programming project" which worth 6 credits, the curriculum said we shall form groups to produce a website following the software development cycle. Being taught by someone with no real world experience, while the workflow is the same as on the textbook, the detail is quite "acedemic", I'd say...

• Any kind of research position. For instance, Microsoft researchers [all?] have PH.D. degrees. This is true for many/most other companies as well, and most definitely for University research (well at least BS/BA degree, but most have PH.D. and are called "professor" or "research professor").
• Mangorial positions often require at least a BA/BS. Sometimes they even want Masters degree.
• Some companies wont even hire programmers without a BSCS. This may become more common if the demand for programmers decreases.

• At least in the federal government (and many local governments), simply having a college degree means you make often make more money with the same exact job title and responsibilities. What this means is you CAN get a job without the college degree, but you'll make less! The incentive pay is proportional to your academic level: High School (lowest pay), Bachelors (mid), Masters (mid-high), Doctorate (pretty high). Sometimes this has a huge effect on your pay, entry level college graduate can make more then H.S. programmer with 20 years experience. (Federal government tend to not value experience as much as education, from my "experience" with them.)
• Another good example is the military. What separates an enlisted person from an officer? Well, really, [mostly] the college degree (Bachelors degree). Even the most big shot enlisted solider with 30 years tour E-9, still is of lower rank then the lowest ranked officer O-1 and on his/her first day of duty with just a  Bachelors degree. So at least in the military, experience is much less important then academic achievements.

Bass said:

cheong said:

*snip*

Well you are assuming everyone wants to be a programmer their whole life. CS is far more then programming (in fact most people would say it's a minor part of CS)..

You don't need a college degree to work as a programmer, especially as a CRUD programmer. You don't need a college degree to be a sysadmin either. These are probably the most common "computer" jobs out there. But they are also IMO very boring.

But here is some examples where a college degree really helps.

• Any kind of research position. For instance, Microsoft researchers [all?] have PH.D. degrees. This is true for many/most other companies as well, and most definitely for University research (well at least BS/BA degree, but most have PH.D. and are called "professor" or "research professor").
• Mangorial positions often require at least a BA/BS. Sometimes they even want Masters degree.
• Some companies wont even hire programmers without a BSCS. This may become more common if the demand for programmers decreases.

• At least in the federal government (and many local governments), simply having a college degree means you make often make more money with the same exact job title and responsibilities. What this means is you CAN get a job without the college degree, but you'll make less! The incentive pay is proportional to your academic level: High School (lowest pay), Bachelors (mid), Masters (mid-high), Doctorate (pretty high). Sometimes this has a huge effect on your pay, entry level college graduate can make more then H.S. programmer with 20 years experience. (Federal government tend to not value experience as much as education, from my "experience" with them.)
• Another good example is the military. What separates an enlisted person from an officer? Well, really, [mostly] the college degree (Bachelors degree). Even the most big shot enlisted solider with 30 years tour E-9, still is of lower rank then the lowest ranked officer O-1 and on his/her first day of duty with just a  Bachelors degree. So at least in the military, experience is much less important then academic achievements.

Of course I am just talking about pay & benefits, which having a college degree is a bit more then that. University education is not job training. It's something different.

> Well you are assuming everyone wants to be a programmer their whole life.

No. Actually I think being able to program is a requirement. For managerial positions of I.T. (which is common target on most people's career path), most company's entry position is a PM (Companies seldom hires high position with less than 5 years of experience.). If you're in-charge of a project and your programming skill is not good enough to read the codes, just imagine what mess could happen to the project. And if you can't understand the difficulties of the people under you, I doubt the overall morale of team will be good as well.

I've seen inexperienced people with higher education level, hate to program, yet choosen PM position and dreamt to climb to higher position wreaked all kinds of havoc ranged from mis-calculated man-day to gradual deformation of program structure within programs. Promising "seemingly simple" function with impossibly little workday adds huge unnecessary stress to the whole team as well.

And no, at least in the short future, the demand ratio for non-BSCS holders for programming positions will increase. The economy situation is not good. I predict more companies will want to hire non-BSCS holders who can do the job for lower wages. This will cut down the cost and allow price drop in SI packages, hence making the company more competitive for new contracts.

Agreed on other things. Just as I said, if you climb to higher position, the knowledge you gain from CS degree will be more relevent.