rjdohnert said:

Im going to assume you arent a big fan of the UI changes Jamie?

jamie said:

rjdohnert said:

*snip*

whatever.  i have 7 still installed. i know how to "work it".  Im not afraid of change.

i find many things changed are not improvements.  just more layers added.

and my friends (all of whom USED to install the newest windows betas) wont go near 7 or vista.

they "have work to do".   But all my friends are designers / musicians - with huge files.
They use UP   no time to read.

At least 7 is getting good press.

PS - i get MAD when MS loses.  i actually do like MS. (go figure)

PPS - they all have tried vista and removed it - and i have shown them 7 which they view as the same thing.
Take that as you may.  But if you want more than 20% adoption this time - re-think the changes from xp to V/7

surely i cannot be the only one who liked 95,98,98se,2000 and xp - of which vista and 7 hardly resemble/work like anymore. You may remember those versions. The ones that SOLD alot.

I know buddy [pats jamie on back] I feel your pain.  It does seem they are choosing the Apple approach, and no Im not talking about the "dock" Im referring to the form over function approach.  You should set up a lab for them, install 7 on a box and let them come over and test their stuff.  It also allows you to hang out with the boys.  "The Jamie Grant Usability Lab".

Yeah the news this morning kind of bummed me out.  I hate Apple right down to their core.  You know the Apple community and Linux community were cheering the news this morning.

Anywho, hows your sister and the rest of the family?  Kids doing OK?

rjdohnert said:

jamie said:

*snip*

I know buddy [pats jamie on back] I feel your pain.  It does seem they are choosing the Apple approach, and no Im not talking about the "dock" Im referring to the form over function approach.  You should set up a lab for them, install 7 on a box and let them come over and test their stuff.  It also allows you to hang out with the boys.  "The Jamie Grant Usability Lab".

Yeah the news this morning kind of bummed me out.  I hate Apple right down to their core.  You know the Apple community and Linux community were cheering the news this morning.

Anywho, hows your sister and the rest of the family?  Kids doing OK?

Microsoft said the announced job cuts would take place in research and development, marketing, sales, finance, legal, human resources and information technology.

jamie said:

rjdohnert said:

*snip*

whatever.  i have 7 still installed. i know how to "work it".  Im not afraid of change.

i find many things changed are not improvements.  just more layers added.

and my friends (all of whom USED to install the newest windows betas) wont go near 7 or vista.

they "have work to do".   But all my friends are designers / musicians - with huge files.
They use UP   no time to read.

At least 7 is getting good press.

PS - i get MAD when MS loses.  i actually do like MS. (go figure)

PPS - they all have tried vista and removed it - and i have shown them 7 which they view as the same thing.
Take that as you may.  But if you want more than 20% adoption this time - re-think the changes from xp to V/7

surely i cannot be the only one who liked 95,98,98se,2000 and xp - of which vista and 7 hardly resemble/work like anymore. You may remember those versions. The ones that SOLD alot.

vesuvius said:

jamie said:

*snip*

Jamie if you have a moment, can you post some images of what you mean please?

jamie said:

vesuvius said:

*snip*

above updated.

My take is simply that - like it or not - XP and luna have become this sort of brand / cultural icon. windows = blue and green. That's a good thing!  And im not saying people dont like aero.  But when something is as popular as XP - why remove most of it?

ps - what would you suggest ms do to increase adoption of main products?

Harlequin said:

Microsoft would be more of a fat trimming I think. Lots of management they don't need. Not like any core devs are gonna go in the U.S. since we know the H1Bs have to go first.

vesuvius said:

jamie said:

*snip*

I must say that I agree with most of your gripes. Most of these are just common sense.

1) A Glass Luna would have been great
2) Just tried to find the classic menu in Windows 7 and it is not there, so that was silly
3) I cannot beleive that has still not been rectified. they appear to want to reduce your mouse clicks, but their current design just creates more. I still do miss this
4) Like option 2, users should have the option to configure things like before
5) Yes for backwards compatibility
6) Yes for backwards compatibility

blowdart said:

Ah so all MS needed to do to save their profits and jobs was to listen to one opinionated obsessive who really wants a mac more than anything else?

Jamie, you realise your original post comes off as gloating somewhat? On a board managed by people whose jobs may be at risk or may be watching friends and colleagues pack up and leave today? Layoffs are not a suitable vehicle for you to push your UI agenda.

jamie said:

blowdart said:

*snip*

you have a better explanation for windows continuing loss of market share (and not just cause of netbooks)?

love to hear it.

littleguru said:

@jamie: what's your answer if I tell you that people tell me they don't know why to switch from Vista to 7 because there is NO change in the UI? I literally got: "it looks the same, why should I change, I'm happy with Vista"...

@jamie2: I agree with you that the explorer could have more icons. I'm not a big fan of these endless lines of text either! Icons allow to quickly find stuff. You have me 100% here!

@All: could it also be that apples marketing is just WAY better? Ipods and Macs have issues... but people don't seem to whine so much about then compared to PC users... is it probably that the Apple marketing is better to excite people so that issues are weighted less because of all the other cool features?

@Win 7 beta testers: I filed the icons request. If you agree with me, please vote on it at https://connect.microsoft.com/windows7/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=403872 - Thanks.

re: @jamie: what's your answer if I tell you that people tell me they don't know why to switch from Vista to 7 because there is NO change in the UI? I literally got: "it looks the same, why should I change, I'm happy with Vista"...

Youre refering to the 20% (vista to 7)

Im refering to the 80% that never ever went to Vista.

Im just pointing out what my friends point out.
Nothing wrong with liking XP's best features

jamie said:

littleguru said:

*snip*

re: @jamie: what's your answer if I tell you that people tell me they don't know why to switch from Vista to 7 because there is NO change in the UI? I literally got: "it looks the same, why should I change, I'm happy with Vista"...

Youre refering to the 20% (vista to 7)

Im refering to the 80% that never ever went to Vista.

Im just pointing out what my friends point out.
Nothing wrong with liking XP's best features

How many of them actually tried Vista? Seriously. I got so many people saying Vista sucked and they NEVER tried it.

blowdart said:

jamie said:

*snip*

Aside from the expense of it, and the fact that the market is saturated and upgrades don't happen as often?

Even so that's beside the point. It's tasteless to point a finger and laugh at people who have just had their life upset, either directly or by watching others go through it. It's thoughtless to do it on a Microsoft hosted forum.

jamie said:

blowdart said:

*snip*

there is nothing funny about the Ballmer Administration.

littleguru said:

jamie said:

*snip*

How many of them actually tried Vista? Seriously. I got so many people saying Vista sucked and they NEVER tried it.

blowdart said:

jamie said:

*snip*

Wow. Just wow. Your ego won't allow you to admit you could be in the wrong will it?

littleguru said:

@jamie: what's your answer if I tell you that people tell me they don't know why to switch from Vista to 7 because there is NO change in the UI? I literally got: "it looks the same, why should I change, I'm happy with Vista"...

@jamie2: I agree with you that the explorer could have more icons. I'm not a big fan of these endless lines of text either! Icons allow to quickly find stuff. You have me 100% here!

@All: could it also be that apples marketing is just WAY better? Ipods and Macs have issues... but people don't seem to whine so much about then compared to PC users... is it probably that the Apple marketing is better to excite people so that issues are weighted less because of all the other cool features?

@Win 7 beta testers: I filed the icons request. If you agree with me, please vote on it at https://connect.microsoft.com/windows7/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=403872 - Thanks.

esoteric said:

  "paint" 

 - Not so hard, Jamie  

The quicklaunch is not such a big miss really - except maybe the ability to configure that running applications are always kept adjacent in the taskbar.

Bass said:

jamie,

Microsoft is feeling real pressure from Linux and from Mac OS X on their core products. But really Microsoft has no way to go but straight down. When you have such a high marketshare that's just the way it is..

Gartner: Blame Vista for Microsoft layoffs

jamie said:

Bass said:

*snip*

Gartner: Blame Vista for Microsoft layoffs

jamie said:

Bass said:

*snip*

Gartner: Blame Vista for Microsoft layoffs

Bass said:

jamie said:

*snip*

Yeah I agree, I think the (some people would say "marketing") failure of Vista is a big reason why Microsoft is doing so bad. Vista really helped Linux for the first time in it's history get a foothold on OEM computers, it wouldn't have been possible without it.

But really Microsoft primary mode of business is maintaining a monopoly marketshare, and that looks like it starting to break down. Without a monopoly could Microsoft actually survive? I don't think so.

jamie said:

Bass said:

*snip*

i just look at a very simple equation:

windows 7 should take after:

1.  the most successful and widely used OS in history

2. A market failure

it is indeed closer (blue is back - sort of)  but 7 is still too vista-ish

*also dont forget for reference - the "Simple vs Easy" and the "UI downfall of MS" articles

Bass said:

jamie said:

*snip*

No operating system Microsoft will ever put out will be more of a "market success" then Windows 95 was. Windows 95 made the Windows monopoly. All Windows 7 could possibly do is "maintain" the status quo.

But anyway I don't think Windows 7 will reverse the downward trend of Windows's dominance. I think in the future OEMs will have a much bigger part in the development of software, kind of like how it was before the Windows monopoly. Stuff like the HP Mini netbook and Dell netbooks are evidence of this.

jamie said:

Bass said:

*snip*

i agree - but to many - XP was the final - 98se + 2000 done right OS.

*didnt like luna? there were REAL themes.

maybe it was just too good. 

*there are some who think that new coke was just a ploy all along - take away coke???  oh here it is back!

Im just saying bring back Coke.   Then you can work on the remaining things people have issues with:
Versions, pricing, WGA.  Personally ive given up going on about those.  I just want Coke back. - and yes they are - sort of getting there

jamie said:

blowdart said:

*snip*

you have a better explanation for windows continuing loss of market share (and not just cause of netbooks)?

love to hear it.

dazla-d said:

jamie said:

*snip*

The explanation is that market GROWTH for PC's has significantly slowed due to less money being available mainly in the consumer market.

Most, in fact nearly all, new PC's run Windows. Slowing of PC growth means slowing of Windows sales. Changes in a PRE-RELEASED version of Windows will have absolutely zero impact on Windows revenue, y'know?

And slowing of PC growth is only a factor, not the whole answer. But on the flipside, S&T growth increased - S&T is the products corporations buy to help them reduce costs and save money.

Duh.

jamie said:

vesuvius said:

*snip*

i think classic is in 7 somewhere  (cant find it again)

but its luna back to classic
vista back to luna back to classic
thats the one thats missing

jamie said:

dazla-d said:

*snip*

yes i guess that explains it.

if you ignore only 20% business adoption 

if you ignore uptake only on regular - pc unit (forced) adoption (not many willing upgrades)

and if you ignore the 4 articles I linked too.

duh


edit - sorry.  i really dont like fighting with 9ers.  just arguing with them

littleguru said:

jamie said:

*snip*

How many of them actually tried Vista? Seriously. I got so many people saying Vista sucked and they NEVER tried it.

dazla-d said:

jamie said:

*snip*

Business adoption and Windows revenue are not the same - most business don't buy new windows versions, they have the rights to use it within their volume agreements. Adoption and revenue are not the same, in the short term. Renewing agreements can be linked to revenue, but it is too early for Vista to have an impact there.

Check out the history as to how many people actually pay to upgrade Windows vs buy a new PC with the latest Windows on it. Very few, it's an edge case. Did you pay to upgrade to whatever you're running, or did you buy a new PC?

in terms of getting to be a classic user - why not go fish out a w9x PC off ebay and have lots of retro fun, huh

jamie said:

dazla-d said:

*snip*

re:  in terms of getting to be a classic user - why not go fish out a w9x PC off ebay and have lots of retro fun, huh

nah - i could just re-load WMC - tory has been going on about how glad she is its back


** im just wondering - how do you get to classic?  i know i tried it in 7  .. where did they move it?
again - i dont use classic - but where is it?  i saw it once.. i think

dazla-d said:

jamie said:

*snip*

So your argument is now distilled away from the initial points and into your UI fetish. Hmmm. Nuff said I guess.

I'll go back to ignoring your incessant edge case UI grumbles. Sorry, mistook this thread for something with analysis and proof points as opposed to a flamethrower.

Q.E.D.

jamie said:

dazla-d said:

*snip*

um no its not. i was just asking where is classic.  the rest stands.

jamie said:

littleguru said:

*snip*

both.  im just using 2 friends as an example: brother - musician .. removed it. checked out 7 - not interested. and norm - sign guy - 8 machines - tried it .. couldnt get anything done. "too different"  "things missing"

dazla-d said:

jamie said:

*snip*

No the rest doesn't stand. Explain. I await the oracle of insight.

littleguru said:

jamie said:

*snip*

Could you elaborate on "couldn't get anything done"?

intelman said:

Microsoft needs to lower the price of Windows and Office.

I simply did not buy Office 2007 because "The Ultimate Steal" didn't work for me. They claim only one sale per household. My roommate got to the ultimate steal before I did. We have the same address... so Microsoft lost my sale.

Windows is too much money as well. We'll see how much we will have to pay for 3 years worth of upgrade. Vista = 5 years worth of upgrade for $319 still quite steep.

Lets face it, everyone wants ultimate because of the shadowcopying and un deleting.

Microsoft needs to make products that work, are attractive, fair priced, easy to obtain.

Alternatively, a decent office suite for 79 .
An Ultimate non Upgrade OS for 129.

999 Macbook or an 2000 dollar Macbook Pro, same price as what I paid for my Inspiron 1520....

That route is looking good now. I can't stand the plastic, poor quality of my Dell, can't afford these software upgrades. I will spend the money for something I believe makes more sense. Microsoft can't compete for my business right now.

jamie said:

littleguru said:

*snip*

pictue 8 machines - all with 3 monitors each - toolbars meticulously set up on each to all network drives .. apps installed ... TOTAL xp full cutomization.

He tried to do it on vista - a) couldnt b) was confused by it c) didnt like it d) ok - some printers didnt work.. but he could have left those machine xp. Did not like network changes mainly. Could not find his way around as fast as xp

his comments.

(ps - as i am known to post on c9 he says all the time "tell them this!  or tell them that!

so i do.

littleguru said:

intelman said:

*snip*

Do more people buy it just because it's cheaper? Would you buy it for 99$ instead of 391$? - and be honest.

littleguru said:

intelman said:

*snip*

Do more people buy it just because it's cheaper? Would you buy it for 99$ instead of 391$? - and be honest.

JeremyJ said:

jamie said:

*snip*

So it wasn't that he "couldn't get anything done", it was just that he didn't want to learn something new.
I see.

jamie said:

Bass said:

*snip*

i agree - but to many - XP was the final - 98se + 2000 done right OS.

*didnt like luna? there were REAL themes.

maybe it was just too good. 

*there are some who think that new coke was just a ploy all along - take away coke???  oh here it is back!

Im just saying bring back Coke.   Then you can work on the remaining things people have issues with:
Versions, pricing, WGA.  Personally ive given up going on about those.  I just want Coke back. - and yes they are - sort of getting there

jamie said:

dazla-d said:

*snip*

Why thank you. (ill take that as a compliment)

What about above do you not understand?

Do you wish for me to list more possible barriers to full profitable windows adoption?

I can..

*<60's batman>..must...not...mention...windows... .com ....

jamie said:

dazla-d said:

*snip*

um no its not. i was just asking where is classic.  the rest stands.

dazla-d said:

jamie said:

*snip*

well if you take that as a compliment then you are more deluded than I thought

w i n do w s dot c o m is an enabler to full profitable windwos adoption.... how? it's in your mind, buddy; whatever you think is true does not equate to the 90+ million other people who are customers of that environment...

you're banging on about something that even a lurker like me sees as non-interesting. if it were interesting or relevant then brighter minds than you would have picked up on it.

You keep throwing out points, trying to argue them, then changing the subject when things get a bit too close for comfort. Slagging off inevitable UI changes is one thing, but claiming to know the panacea to Windows marketing and market growth strategies is a bit much to expect and you're not really delivering, are you?

Even your statements are contradictory. Full profitable windows adoption. What does that mean? windows is profitable. windows is adopted. what does full mean?????

so how about you defining a concrete case, with supporting real stats,showing how your great idea can:
- ensure windows is on 100% of all PC's (full?)
- ensure that Microsoft makes money from this (profitable??)
- combination of both the above is a given (windows adoption???)

do that, and then you prove your gripes. if not, you are the sound bite muppet I envisage.

well if you take that as a compliment then you are more deluded than I thought

thank you again.

w i n do w s dot c o m is an enabler to full profitable windwos adoption.... how? it's in your mind, buddy; whatever you think is true does not equate to the 90+ million other people who are customers of that environment...

it would simplify alot of things and remove confusion around windows branding.

you're banging on about something that even a lurker like me sees as non-interesting. if it were interesting or relevant then brighter minds than you would have picked up on it.

brighter minds like joe wilcox, mary jo, network world, .....?

You keep throwing out points, trying to argue them, then changing the subject when things get a bit too close for comfort.

i only asked where classic was. you changed the subject

Slagging off inevitable UI changes is one thing, but claiming to know the panacea to Windows marketing and market growth strategies is a bit much to expect and you're not really delivering, are you?

where are your solutions?  what links do you point to? none?  oh.

Even your statements are contradictory. Full profitable windows adoption. What does that mean?

above 20% business adoption / wanted consumer adoption

windows is profitable. windows is adopted. what does full mean?????

it means a buying tsunami like xp / 95

so how about you defining a concrete case, with supporting real stats,showing how your great idea can:
- ensure windows is on 100% of all PC's (full?)
already said above ideas might account for a 10% of fence sitter adoption - not 100
- ensure that Microsoft makes money from this (profitable??)
already said re-think OEM/retail pricing
- combination of both the above is a given (windows adoption???)
- no - just that ignoring a huge faction of users - that liked your last, last product - might not be a good idea

do that, and then you prove your gripes. if not, you are the sound bite muppet I envisage.

heyyyyy herbie babbyyyy 

jamie said:

dazla-d said:

*snip*

well if you take that as a compliment then you are more deluded than I thought

thank you again.

w i n do w s dot c o m is an enabler to full profitable windwos adoption.... how? it's in your mind, buddy; whatever you think is true does not equate to the 90+ million other people who are customers of that environment...

it would simplify alot of things and remove confusion around windows branding.

you're banging on about something that even a lurker like me sees as non-interesting. if it were interesting or relevant then brighter minds than you would have picked up on it.

brighter minds like joe wilcox, mary jo, network world, .....?

You keep throwing out points, trying to argue them, then changing the subject when things get a bit too close for comfort.

i only asked where classic was. you changed the subject

Slagging off inevitable UI changes is one thing, but claiming to know the panacea to Windows marketing and market growth strategies is a bit much to expect and you're not really delivering, are you?

where are your solutions?  what links do you point to? none?  oh.

Even your statements are contradictory. Full profitable windows adoption. What does that mean?

above 20% business adoption / wanted consumer adoption

windows is profitable. windows is adopted. what does full mean?????

it means a buying tsunami like xp / 95

so how about you defining a concrete case, with supporting real stats,showing how your great idea can:
- ensure windows is on 100% of all PC's (full?)
already said above ideas might account for a 10% of fence sitter adoption - not 100
- ensure that Microsoft makes money from this (profitable??)
already said re-think OEM/retail pricing
- combination of both the above is a given (windows adoption???)
- no - just that ignoring a huge faction of users - that liked your last, last product - might not be a good idea

do that, and then you prove your gripes. if not, you are the sound bite muppet I envisage.

heyyyyy herbie babbyyyy 

ps - ya i hate when people break posts down into points to argue too.

dazla-d said:

jamie said:

*snip*

jamie

winsows branding and Microsoft branding are not the same
joe wilcox, MJF, network world are not brighter minds. they are bottom feeders. if you think they are brighter minds then this says a lot.
I didn't purport to  define panaceas for marketing and growth strategies; you are the person who did
Definition of business/wanted adoption are a bit mad, and wtf do you mean by a tsunami OS
All the other stuff you talk about is getting boring to reply against.

yah I give up trying to give you a reality check on your conspiracy theories. mainly cos I know you're a nutjob and it's all a laugh on you, really

jamie said:

dazla-d said:

*snip*

hey! i like it: 
"Jamie: Proud nutjob that people can laugh on - since 2004."

(added the 2004 part)

whatever. game over.

dazla-d said:

jamie said:

*snip*

whatever. game over.

jamie said:

littleguru said:

*snip*

i think the retail / OEM "barrier ... needs to be re-thought.

ie - Windows at Staples = 499$
but everyone knows its really $299
..or even way less for premium

This is done to make OEMs not lose sales to upgraders / build your own crowd.

I think windows sold more - when it was on shelves for 99$  that you could pick up.Ive read that windows is really around 60$ for one machine.  so... sell THAT! everywhere!

intelman said:

Microsoft should just continue to make great products like Office 2007 and Windows 7. These are products people actually see some use in. Office is much more personalbe now. Windows 7 has features that people see useful, that will change their computing lifestyle. The new taskbar, and libraries will certainly positively affect the windows community.

Microsoft needs to attract students. My school seems to be making the switch. I am considering the switch because I think I will get a better quality product that uses cheaper software. The libraries are slowly getting rid of the black dell boxes and replacing them with the new iMacs. In addition, I am seeing more and more Macbooks in the classroom. There are some people who bought them for the wrong reasons (a few told me they got macbooks because they got a free ipod with it).

littleguru said:

jamie said:

*snip*

I still hear them say that XP looks like playmobil and nobody who's serious would use that bluish something with the big icons and everything looks so childish  Only back then the bloggers/web2.0 hadn't that much of an influence...

littleguru said:

Hmm... Windows/Microsoft needs to be hip again. I agree. Apple saw it years back and came up with the "PC guy". Microsoft's marketing should be boosted and very much improved. I agree that Microsoft has nice tech and nobody knows about it because there's nobody showing it at events or at least it's not done in a ways that the media would pick it up...

intelman said:

Microsoft needs to lower the price of Windows and Office.

I simply did not buy Office 2007 because "The Ultimate Steal" didn't work for me. They claim only one sale per household. My roommate got to the ultimate steal before I did. We have the same address... so Microsoft lost my sale.

Windows is too much money as well. We'll see how much we will have to pay for 3 years worth of upgrade. Vista = 5 years worth of upgrade for $319 still quite steep.

Lets face it, everyone wants ultimate because of the shadowcopying and un deleting.

Microsoft needs to make products that work, are attractive, fair priced, easy to obtain.

Alternatively, a decent office suite for 79 .
An Ultimate non Upgrade OS for 129.

999 Macbook or an 2000 dollar Macbook Pro, same price as what I paid for my Inspiron 1520....

That route is looking good now. I can't stand the plastic, poor quality of my Dell, can't afford these software upgrades. I will spend the money for something I believe makes more sense. Microsoft can't compete for my business right now.

I simply did not buy Office 2007 because "The Ultimate Steal" didn't work for me.

...

Microsoft needs to make products that work, are attractive, fair priced, easy to obtain.

Alternatively, a decent office suite for 79 .

littleguru said:

Hmm... Windows/Microsoft needs to be hip again. I agree. Apple saw it years back and came up with the "PC guy". Microsoft's marketing should be boosted and very much improved. I agree that Microsoft has nice tech and nobody knows about it because there's nobody showing it at events or at least it's not done in a ways that the media would pick it up...

Bas said:

littleguru said:

*snip*

They need to be hip again? When have they ever been hip? They took virtually the entire PC operating system market without being hip. I'm not sure, but I have the feeling that this whole "if you're not hip nobody will buy your stuff" thing is overblown blogger wisdom that has no basis in the real world.

Bas said:

intelman said:

*snip*

Office 2007 Home & Student Edition also costs $79, and also contains a word processor, presentation software and a spreadsheet. On top of that, it adds OneNote and a 3 pc license. So how is iWork the better deal?

I do see your point there. Both suites provide the same types of apps and Office is the better deal.

The problem is if I get Office for Windows, I have to get a suite that includes Access and Publisher.

If I get an Office suite for Mac, I do not need those ( I do need what iWork provides) and school provides some program that will take place of Access (we do not use it intensely, some of our instruments output to an access file, which then gets translated into tabulated data.

It is nice to know Microsoft has a suite licensed for three computers at 79 dollars. At first I saw this.

I later found the 79 dollar suite you spoke of.

Now if only Windows (Ultimate) had such a deal. I do not *need* ultimate, but I really want/need the shadowcopy undelete feature.

Microsoft really needs one tier, so everyone can enjoy the benefits of these "Ultimate tiers".

There has been so many times I change a formula and want to go back to a spreadsheet with the previous formula. I love that feature, it is just a shame it is in the Ultimate version of Vista.

I do see your point there. Both suites provide the same types of apps and Office is the better deal.

The problem is if I get Office for Windows, I have to get a suite that includes Access and Publisher.

If I get an Office suite for Mac, I do not need those ( I do need what iWork provides) and school provides some program that will take place of Access (we do not use it intensely, some of our instruments output to an access file, which then gets translated into tabulated data.

It is nice to know Microsoft has a suite licensed for three computers at 79 dollars. At first I saw this.

I later found the 79 dollar suite you spoke of.

Now if only Windows (Ultimate) had such a deal. I do not *need* ultimate, but I really want/need the shadowcopy undelete feature.

Microsoft really needs one tier, so everyone can enjoy the benefits of these "Ultimate tiers".

There has been so many times I change a formula and want to go back to a spreadsheet with the previous formula. I love that feature, it is just a shame it is in the Ultimate version of Vista.

jamie said:

littleguru said:

*snip*

i think the retail / OEM "barrier ... needs to be re-thought.

ie - Windows at Staples = 499$
but everyone knows its really $299
..or even way less for premium

This is done to make OEMs not lose sales to upgraders / build your own crowd.

I think windows sold more - when it was on shelves for 99$  that you could pick up.Ive read that windows is really around 60$ for one machine.  so... sell THAT! everywhere!

i  think the retail / OEM "barrier ... needs to be re-thought.

ie - Windows at Staples = 499$
but everyone knows its really $299

The thing with OEM vs. Retail, as far as the pricing is concerned, is essentially to do with 3 points.

1.        Support.
OEM versions of MS software are supported by the OEM, instead of MS... and the reduced price to the OEM is supposed to reflect that support cost to the OEM.  Note: I realise that OEM's usually try to wriggle out of the support requirement and tell their customers to call MS, but that's what the license requirements state.

2.        Re-Use.
OEM Licenses are normally tied to the machine they were installed on, and cannot be transferred, whereas Retail licenses are normally transferable from machine to machine, so long as you remove the product each time. i.e. OEM Office is tied to the machine it was pre-installed on, so you are up for a new copy if you buy a new machine, whereas your retail office can be installed on the new machine, sol long as you remove it from the old machine first.

3.        Upgrade Options.
OEM Licenses are normally limited in their ability to upgrade, and generally require a new version rather than an upgrade.

rjdohnert said:

Impeach Ballmer.

have you been by miniMSFT recently? 
last 2 posts have over 800 softie replies - and ive never seen so much "Ballmer must go now" sentiment

in other news:   http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10148886-17.html?tag=newsFeaturedBlogArea.0

or.. bla bla bla!

in more other news im liking bioshock.  Ive been to the office of ryan - ive finsihed and moved the bomb, ive restarted the core!

A Simple Plan.
Un-doing the damage of the Ballmer Administration

Windows
• Put back the 6 things I listed above ( this = NO noticeable change - just option for changing back.)
• Put back true theming - and make even more robust
• Create an OPTIONAL UI layer - that shows off WPF and puts Linux cube thing to shame (look to MMCenter for start - add programs and 3d-ize it)
• Add icons back into startmenu list  * if you thought the old 3d colourful ones were ..too much - at least put a graphical simple icon beside each (like the new flat simple taskbar icons ... black and white)

Office
• Provide old toolbar option for longtime users/customers
• Offer new Office Environments - like Dusty Desk (with typewriter *WPF) or Shuttle Writer (space theme *WPF)
  *these are just eye candy or .. fun ( = ENOUGH with all enterprise only enhancements to office)

Expression Suite
• Main Issue: Failing to get Macromedia before Adobe
   Solution:  Buy certain assets of Corel Corp. including Fractal Paint, Photopaint, CorelDraw and KAIs

• Best case result: 
1. Expression is finally viewed as a true adobe competitor (not just a "use this to make MS stuff" suite of apps). Expression Draw, Expression Paint, Expression Photo.
2. Rescue the thousands of Corel designers/users from uncertain future
3. Mobilize this new dev/designer force with new tools - including tight integration between coreldraw vector design and Expression Blend? * Corel used to offer a flash like program called Rave - that was really good but made HUGE swf files. Use this as the starting code for how Silverlight integration should "work" but fix the file size issues. (had working animation timeline within coreldraw and everything - res-erect pls!
4. Fill up the Office live clipart gallery with the 100's of thousands of royalty free clipart from corel purchase
5. Release all Corel true type fonts in a new web font pack, bundle with office and windows.  This means overnight there could be the possibility of a web with more than 20 actual fonts. (picture the web if 7 and O14 came with 200 new installed fonts.  IE8 - would also install at least 100 NEW fonts. (*devalues adobe font portfolio / make avail to all browsers - "altruism" whatever  ..just fix fonts on the web. i think people will really like more variety=good will)
*no need for weft - if you own the fonts and set them ... free (  yes...free... )

Expression Web:
This program is basically FrontPage - with a lot more CSS reading panes and better code output.  But 2 issues hamper its uptake:
1. the removal of drawing tables - and 2. the removal of inline preview.
Solution 1.:  Add back new Drawing tool for not only tables but layers, css and spans - in one simple toolbox
Solution 2.: Add back Inline preview - but offer "Choose rendering engine" option - which - if browser installed - would let you inline preview IE, FF, Chrome, Safari  (geko, webkit, trident....)

Internet Explorer
• Add ability to customize and break apart every part of IE. (coolbars on steroids) Let people choose rendering engine.  Perhaps use Webkit - or whatever choice would make the MOST web devs happy. (i had thought geko - but don't care if its webkit.. just want to get back closer to the days when you only had to check IE - and nothing else mattered.)
• Find solution to the rectangle/ boxy look.  

MSN /Live / search / maps / telescope .....
• All web properties rebranded Windows.com (as sections) - one site to rule them all bla bla
• Hire speculate swamp to run search division (so crazy - it just might work!)

Xbox/Zune/winMO
• Merge zune and win mobile with Xbox - create  XTalkx ( or xphone / Xbox Mobile)
• If you must have a music player - call it Windows Media Player component and license out

Server/enterprise
• No change - but id worry about pricing

Corp
• create position for Chief Creative Officer ... somehow ...fill it.

***DISCLAIMER - yes this is the same old stuff - but i actually believe ALL of it needs to happen. If it did - im not sure there would be much left to complain about. (although im sure i could find something)

lastly - to the wonderful forum critics here on 9 - please ask yourself - what would YOU do? At least I have a list of things to put back / fix.  What are your ideas?

jamie said:

rjdohnert said:

*snip*

have you been by miniMSFT recently? 
last 2 posts have over 800 softie replies - and ive never seen so much "Ballmer must go now" sentiment

in other news:   http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10148886-17.html?tag=newsFeaturedBlogArea.0

or.. bla bla bla!

in more other news im liking bioshock.  Ive been to the office of ryan - ive finsihed and moved the bomb, ive restarted the core!

edit:  Consolidation of all my above suggestions - and everything ive ever gone on about

A Simple Plan.
Un-doing the damage of the Ballmer Administration

Windows
• Put back the 6 things I listed above ( this = NO noticeable change - just option for changing back.)
• Put back true theming - and make even more robust
• Create an OPTIONAL UI layer - that shows off WPF and puts Linux cube thing to shame (look to MMCenter for start - add programs and 3d-ize it)
• Add icons back into startmenu list  * if you thought the old 3d colourful ones were ..too much - at least put a graphical simple icon beside each (like the new flat simple taskbar icons ... black and white)

Office
• Provide old toolbar option for longtime users/customers
• Offer new Office Environments - like Dusty Desk (with typewriter *WPF) or Shuttle Writer (space theme *WPF)
  *these are just eye candy or .. fun ( = ENOUGH with all enterprise only enhancements to office)

Expression Suite
• Main Issue: Failing to get Macromedia before Adobe
   Solution:  Buy certain assets of Corel Corp. including Fractal Paint, Photopaint, CorelDraw and KAIs

• Best case result: 
1. Expression is finally viewed as a true adobe competitor (not just a "use this to make MS stuff" suite of apps). Expression Draw, Expression Paint, Expression Photo.
2. Rescue the thousands of Corel designers/users from uncertain future
3. Mobilize this new dev/designer force with new tools - including tight integration between coreldraw vector design and Expression Blend? * Corel used to offer a flash like program called Rave - that was really good but made HUGE swf files. Use this as the starting code for how Silverlight integration should "work" but fix the file size issues. (had working animation timeline within coreldraw and everything - res-erect pls!
4. Fill up the Office live clipart gallery with the 100's of thousands of royalty free clipart from corel purchase
5. Release all Corel true type fonts in a new web font pack, bundle with office and windows.  This means overnight there could be the possibility of a web with more than 20 actual fonts. (picture the web if 7 and O14 came with 200 new installed fonts.  IE8 - would also install at least 100 NEW fonts. (*devalues adobe font portfolio / make avail to all browsers - "altruism" whatever  ..just fix fonts on the web. i think people will really like more variety=good will)
*no need for weft - if you own the fonts and set them ... free (  yes...free... )

Expression Web:
This program is basically FrontPage - with a lot more CSS reading panes and better code output.  But 2 issues hamper its uptake:
1. the removal of drawing tables - and 2. the removal of inline preview.
Solution 1.:  Add back new Drawing tool for not only tables but layers, css and spans - in one simple toolbox
Solution 2.: Add back Inline preview - but offer "Choose rendering engine" option - which - if browser installed - would let you inline preview IE, FF, Chrome, Safari  (geko, webkit, trident....)

Internet Explorer
• Add ability to customize and break apart every part of IE. (coolbars on steroids) Let people choose rendering engine.  Perhaps use Webkit - or whatever choice would make the MOST web devs happy. (i had thought geko - but don't care if its webkit.. just want to get back closer to the days when you only had to check IE - and nothing else mattered.)
• Find solution to the rectangle/ boxy look.  

MSN /Live / search / maps / telescope .....
• All web properties rebranded Windows.com (as sections) - one site to rule them all bla bla
• Hire speculate swamp to run search division (so crazy - it just might work!)

Xbox/Zune/winMO
• Merge zune and win mobile with Xbox - create  XTalkx ( or xphone / Xbox Mobile)
• If you must have a music player - call it Windows Media Player component and license out

Server/enterprise
• No change - but id worry about pricing

Corp
• create position for Chief Creative Officer ... somehow ...fill it.

***DISCLAIMER - yes this is the same old stuff - but i actually believe ALL of it needs to happen. If it did - im not sure there would be much left to complain about. (although im sure i could find something)

lastly - to the wonderful forum critics here on 9 - please ask yourself - what would YOU do? At least I have a list of things to put back / fix.  What are your ideas?

ppps - from the What's in a Name Dept:  looks like Popfly is history
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9126718&intsrc=news_ts_head

youre out!

SlackmasterK said:

jamie said:

*snip*

Your rants are starting to resemble those of SpectateSwamp.  Has anyone mentioned this yet?   

jamie said:

rjdohnert said:

*snip*

have you been by miniMSFT recently? 
last 2 posts have over 800 softie replies - and ive never seen so much "Ballmer must go now" sentiment

in other news:   http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10148886-17.html?tag=newsFeaturedBlogArea.0

or.. bla bla bla!

in more other news im liking bioshock.  Ive been to the office of ryan - ive finsihed and moved the bomb, ive restarted the core!

edit:  Consolidation of all my above suggestions - and everything ive ever gone on about

A Simple Plan.
Un-doing the damage of the Ballmer Administration

Windows
• Put back the 6 things I listed above ( this = NO noticeable change - just option for changing back.)
• Put back true theming - and make even more robust
• Create an OPTIONAL UI layer - that shows off WPF and puts Linux cube thing to shame (look to MMCenter for start - add programs and 3d-ize it)
• Add icons back into startmenu list  * if you thought the old 3d colourful ones were ..too much - at least put a graphical simple icon beside each (like the new flat simple taskbar icons ... black and white)

Office
• Provide old toolbar option for longtime users/customers
• Offer new Office Environments - like Dusty Desk (with typewriter *WPF) or Shuttle Writer (space theme *WPF)
  *these are just eye candy or .. fun ( = ENOUGH with all enterprise only enhancements to office)

Expression Suite
• Main Issue: Failing to get Macromedia before Adobe
   Solution:  Buy certain assets of Corel Corp. including Fractal Paint, Photopaint, CorelDraw and KAIs

• Best case result: 
1. Expression is finally viewed as a true adobe competitor (not just a "use this to make MS stuff" suite of apps). Expression Draw, Expression Paint, Expression Photo.
2. Rescue the thousands of Corel designers/users from uncertain future
3. Mobilize this new dev/designer force with new tools - including tight integration between coreldraw vector design and Expression Blend? * Corel used to offer a flash like program called Rave - that was really good but made HUGE swf files. Use this as the starting code for how Silverlight integration should "work" but fix the file size issues. (had working animation timeline within coreldraw and everything - res-erect pls!
4. Fill up the Office live clipart gallery with the 100's of thousands of royalty free clipart from corel purchase
5. Release all Corel true type fonts in a new web font pack, bundle with office and windows.  This means overnight there could be the possibility of a web with more than 20 actual fonts. (picture the web if 7 and O14 came with 200 new installed fonts.  IE8 - would also install at least 100 NEW fonts. (*devalues adobe font portfolio / make avail to all browsers - "altruism" whatever  ..just fix fonts on the web. i think people will really like more variety=good will)
*no need for weft - if you own the fonts and set them ... free (  yes...free... )

Expression Web:
This program is basically FrontPage - with a lot more CSS reading panes and better code output.  But 2 issues hamper its uptake:
1. the removal of drawing tables - and 2. the removal of inline preview.
Solution 1.:  Add back new Drawing tool for not only tables but layers, css and spans - in one simple toolbox
Solution 2.: Add back Inline preview - but offer "Choose rendering engine" option - which - if browser installed - would let you inline preview IE, FF, Chrome, Safari  (geko, webkit, trident....)

Internet Explorer
• Add ability to customize and break apart every part of IE. (coolbars on steroids) Let people choose rendering engine.  Perhaps use Webkit - or whatever choice would make the MOST web devs happy. (i had thought geko - but don't care if its webkit.. just want to get back closer to the days when you only had to check IE - and nothing else mattered.)
• Find solution to the rectangle/ boxy look.  

MSN /Live / search / maps / telescope .....
• All web properties rebranded Windows.com (as sections) - one site to rule them all bla bla
• Hire speculate swamp to run search division (so crazy - it just might work!)

Xbox/Zune/winMO
• Merge zune and win mobile with Xbox - create  XTalkx ( or xphone / Xbox Mobile)
• If you must have a music player - call it Windows Media Player component and license out

Server/enterprise
• No change - but id worry about pricing

Corp
• create position for Chief Creative Officer ... somehow ...fill it.

***DISCLAIMER - yes this is the same old stuff - but i actually believe ALL of it needs to happen. If it did - im not sure there would be much left to complain about. (although im sure i could find something)

lastly - to the wonderful forum critics here on 9 - please ask yourself - what would YOU do? At least I have a list of things to put back / fix.  What are your ideas?

ppps - from the What's in a Name Dept:  looks like Popfly is history
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9126718&intsrc=news_ts_head

youre out!

blowdart said:

jamie said:

*snip*

Expression Web:
 2. the removal of inline preview.

What removal? (I can't believe I'm actually responding to this - I still feel using layoffs to promote your own ego is disgusting)




What do you mean by inline?

jamie said:

blowdart said:

*snip*

then stop being disgusting


 run along now...

uech whey an bury ye heid now...

* inline browser preview - not design mode


*OR ONE CLICK INLINE IE  no stupid other windows like a mac or dreamweaver (that ms is trying to copy)

rjdohnert said:

Impeach Ballmer.

Ray7 said:

jamie said:

*snip*

Could you at least write in whole sentences?