Linux

So, every so often I get the itch to try Linux out.  Last time was about a year ago with Debian. I put it on VPC and got really frustrated by not being able to get the network working.

Saturday I go out and download Kubuntu and put it on a spare hard drive. Install was very easy and everything seemed to be set up on the first boot.  Best out-of-box experience for Linux at least of the ones I've tried.  Then the problems started.
 
-my wireless card wasn't detected. I attempted to install ndiswrapper and the xp driver for my wireless card, but something must have gone wrong because it refused to recognize the ndiswrapper command.
-my sound card wasn't detected. I went out and found drivers, compiled them and installed them. Yay we have sound! Next reboot, sound won't work with an error about initializing the device. No sound
-I couldn't play mp3s, wmas, wmvs, or mpgs, even though the application that was installed (Amarok) claims to be able to play all of those
 -this is nitpicking, but I couldn't double-click on the system menu of a window to close it.
-I had to really dig to find a 64-bit version of Flash, since the 64-bit version of Linux apparently has no 32-bit emulation?
-OpenOffice.org looks like it was designed in 1995. ClarisWorks anyone?

I tried. I really did. But I ended up back here on Vista because it just works. No fiddling about with finding the correct commands or having all of the libraries needed to compile some source code. No spending hours on Google looking for drivers for a device that should be supported out of the box.

Anyone else want to share their experiences?

Brian?

* Im liking this new "one word thread" trend

I think ill try one...

Used it for 3 years, stopped because I was tired of fiddling with everything to maintain barely a fraction of the functionality and stability I get with Windows.

jamie said:

Linux is good on older, relatively common hardware, where the open-source drivers have had enough time and attention to become nice and stable.

CannotResolveSymbol said:

jamie said:

*snip*

Linux is good on older, relatively common hardware, where the open-source drivers have had enough time and attention to become nice and stable.

For example, I run Linux on my almost four year-old laptop:  ATI graphics card (X300), Intel WiFi, generic integrated audio (I think Soundmax, but don't quote me on that).  My system's been stable and usable (all hardware is recognized and fully functional) out of the box in most Linux distributions for the last two years or so.

If you try to run Linux on anything relatively new without carefully selecting the components you put in to the box, you're probably going to run into problems.  That's Linux's main weakness--  it hasn't gained the popular traction yet for hardware manufacturers to provide drivers for many devices (there are some technical issues there too, but they're relatively minor, especially if you're producing an open-source driver).

Oh god, hope Beer does not see this.

jamie said:

CannotResolveSymbol said:

*snip*

One of  “We’re Linux” contest finalists:

I use Linux almost exclusively, I know it seems weird for a person who primilarly makings a living developing .NET software, but I just perfer Linux as an operating system over Windows. It's very hard to pinpoint this to a specific reason, but I just feel more comfortable working with Linux then any other OS.

Horrible.

Ok guys, I created an account only to answer this post:

Saturday I go out and download Kubuntu...

Install Ubuntu 8.10 instead - because of GNOME

-my wireless card wasn't detected

Buy a different wi-fi card - they are dirt cheap these days - Atheros or Realtek chipset based card will do

-my sound card wasn't detected. I went out and found drivers, compiled them and installed them.

OK, this is something you shouldn't do - it's not Windows where you go to your hardware manufacturer's website to download the drivers - instead you select them from your repository - this is what you do for nVidia or AMD/ATI graphics card drivers as well (in order to have 3D enabled). And you don't have to compile anything or type anything in the shell to install your drivers since they come compiled specifically for your distro.

-I couldn't play mp3s, wmas, wmvs, or mpgs, even though the application that was installed (Amarok) claims to be able to play all of those

Tell me just how many media formats can you play on Windows out-of-the-box - not many since you need to install a codec pack or let WMP download the codecs to play most of your stuff - the same is on Linux - you can either install codecs by selecting the package in the repository or in Ubuntu 8.10 just play the file in the default media player and it will download the codecs you need.

-this is nitpicking, but I couldn't double-click on the system menu of a window to close it.

Again if you tried Ubuntu 8.10 you would have GNOME rather than KDE as your desktop shell

-I had to really dig to find a 64-bit version of Flash, since the 64-bit version of Linux apparently has no 32-bit emulation?

There will be a 64 bit version of flash released by Adobe on Linux BEFORE they release the 64 bit Windows version, you can use a Firefox plugin which is a wrapper around the 32 bit version of flash for the time being.

-OpenOffice.org looks like it was designed in 1995.

MS Office got a new look (the ribbon) only in 2007 and try doing some charts in OpenOffice and you will see the difference - appearances may be deceiving.

I see it as a great place for developers to make their dream on a more open community. But, try it at your own risk (Box Checked).

I needed a Netbook so I ordered one.  The only reason I ordered it with Ubuntu is because the only other option anywhere is Windows XP and ever since using Vista, I can't stand XP.  If they had netbooks with Vista, I'd have gotten one in a heartbeat.

We'll see how it goes, but the reviews for this particular Netbook with it's installed version of Ubuntu seem okay.  Dell Mini 9n.  Fortunately, I'm very familiar with Linux.

I just bought two wireless pci adaptors, more or less at random from trade.co.nz, and loaded them up under Fedora 10 and Archlinux.

Card 1 is an ASUS WL-138G V2.  The kernel module loaded automatically as soon as the card was in and the computer was booted; however, ifconfig would not bring the device up.  It output the error SIOCSIFFLAGS: no such file or directory.  Downloading firmware required by the card and installing it corrected the problem (which were the file(s) SIOCSIFFLAGS was discovering missing).

It uses the b43 module and of course, requires firmware.

Card 2 is an Ovislink AirLive WT-2000PCI.  Same problem..same solution.

It uses the rt61pci (rt2x00) kernel module, and is one of the two known Ralink card types that also require firmware.


Even at random and with no previous compatibility research I was unable to get a card that doesn't function under a modern Linux kernel.  Although a card that doesn't need firmware and is 100% FSF would have been better, there was absolutely nothing technical preventing the cards from working.

Ubuntu said:

Ok guys, I created an account only to answer this post:

Saturday I go out and download Kubuntu...

Install Ubuntu 8.10 instead - because of GNOME

-my wireless card wasn't detected

Buy a different wi-fi card - they are dirt cheap these days - Atheros or Realtek chipset based card will do

-my sound card wasn't detected. I went out and found drivers, compiled them and installed them.

OK, this is something you shouldn't do - it's not Windows where you go to your hardware manufacturer's website to download the drivers - instead you select them from your repository - this is what you do for nVidia or AMD/ATI graphics card drivers as well (in order to have 3D enabled). And you don't have to compile anything or type anything in the shell to install your drivers since they come compiled specifically for your distro.

-I couldn't play mp3s, wmas, wmvs, or mpgs, even though the application that was installed (Amarok) claims to be able to play all of those

Tell me just how many media formats can you play on Windows out-of-the-box - not many since you need to install a codec pack or let WMP download the codecs to play most of your stuff - the same is on Linux - you can either install codecs by selecting the package in the repository or in Ubuntu 8.10 just play the file in the default media player and it will download the codecs you need.

-this is nitpicking, but I couldn't double-click on the system menu of a window to close it.

Again if you tried Ubuntu 8.10 you would have GNOME rather than KDE as your desktop shell

-I had to really dig to find a 64-bit version of Flash, since the 64-bit version of Linux apparently has no 32-bit emulation?

There will be a 64 bit version of flash released by Adobe on Linux BEFORE they release the 64 bit Windows version, you can use a Firefox plugin which is a wrapper around the 32 bit version of flash for the time being.

-OpenOffice.org looks like it was designed in 1995.

MS Office got a new look (the ribbon) only in 2007 and try doing some charts in OpenOffice and you will see the difference - appearances may be deceiving.

Wow, just wow. Let me respond to Ubuntu's post.

First, after my many Linux attempts, I've come to prefer KDE to Gnome. Just personal preference.

Shouldn't my 5 year-old wireless card have support? Why should I be forced to spend money to have wireless in a free OS? As far as fiddling around with ndiswrapper being an advanced thing, from my Googling it seemed to be the only way to get my card working. The card has a Marvell chipset, which is not exactly an unknown company.

If this magical "repository" could work with my sound card, why didn't I have sound? And where is the documentation telling me that I should look in this repository first?

Out of the box, WMP plays all of the formats I listed, no downloading required.

I actually found a 64-bit beta of Flash from Adobe which seemed to work fine.

I meant less about the toolbars vs. ribbons, and more that the document had the margins on it and really reminded me of ClarisWorks back on the Macintosh.

I did think of one more thing I disliked. It seems that even now in 2009 the only way to install something is to do it through the command line.

I could see how once things were up and running, it wouldn't be a bad everyday OS. I liked how they've hidden the root account and instead just have you type your user password again when elevating privileges. It's less confusing to non-unix users yet still effective as an "are you sure" measure.

Finally, responses like yours are why I dislike the Linux "community". It's very exclusive and filled with geeks who would rather keep their OS at 0.5% marketshare than actually help new users.


Let me know when I can install the OS and have it work with my hardware. I always feel like I've traveled back in time 10 years when I install it.

spivonious said:

Ubuntu said:

*snip*

Wow, just wow. Let me respond to Ubuntu's post.

First, after my many Linux attempts, I've come to prefer KDE to Gnome. Just personal preference.

Shouldn't my 5 year-old wireless card have support? Why should I be forced to spend money to have wireless in a free OS? As far as fiddling around with ndiswrapper being an advanced thing, from my Googling it seemed to be the only way to get my card working. The card has a Marvell chipset, which is not exactly an unknown company.

If this magical "repository" could work with my sound card, why didn't I have sound? And where is the documentation telling me that I should look in this repository first?

Out of the box, WMP plays all of the formats I listed, no downloading required.

I actually found a 64-bit beta of Flash from Adobe which seemed to work fine.

I meant less about the toolbars vs. ribbons, and more that the document had the margins on it and really reminded me of ClarisWorks back on the Macintosh.

I did think of one more thing I disliked. It seems that even now in 2009 the only way to install something is to do it through the command line.

I could see how once things were up and running, it wouldn't be a bad everyday OS. I liked how they've hidden the root account and instead just have you type your user password again when elevating privileges. It's less confusing to non-unix users yet still effective as an "are you sure" measure.

Finally, responses like yours are why I dislike the Linux "community". It's very exclusive and filled with geeks who would rather keep their OS at 0.5% marketshare than actually help new users.


Let me know when I can install the OS and have it work with my hardware. I always feel like I've traveled back in time 10 years when I install it.

"Out of the box, WMP plays all of the formats I listed, no downloading required."

spivonious said:

Ubuntu said:

*snip*

Wow, just wow. Let me respond to Ubuntu's post.

First, after my many Linux attempts, I've come to prefer KDE to Gnome. Just personal preference.

Shouldn't my 5 year-old wireless card have support? Why should I be forced to spend money to have wireless in a free OS? As far as fiddling around with ndiswrapper being an advanced thing, from my Googling it seemed to be the only way to get my card working. The card has a Marvell chipset, which is not exactly an unknown company.

If this magical "repository" could work with my sound card, why didn't I have sound? And where is the documentation telling me that I should look in this repository first?

Out of the box, WMP plays all of the formats I listed, no downloading required.

I actually found a 64-bit beta of Flash from Adobe which seemed to work fine.

I meant less about the toolbars vs. ribbons, and more that the document had the margins on it and really reminded me of ClarisWorks back on the Macintosh.

I did think of one more thing I disliked. It seems that even now in 2009 the only way to install something is to do it through the command line.

I could see how once things were up and running, it wouldn't be a bad everyday OS. I liked how they've hidden the root account and instead just have you type your user password again when elevating privileges. It's less confusing to non-unix users yet still effective as an "are you sure" measure.

Finally, responses like yours are why I dislike the Linux "community". It's very exclusive and filled with geeks who would rather keep their OS at 0.5% marketshare than actually help new users.


Let me know when I can install the OS and have it work with my hardware. I always feel like I've traveled back in time 10 years when I install it.

Shouldn't my 5 year-old wireless card have support?

There are probably drivers for it only they are not included in the kernel - why - because they are not stable enough because the vendor doesn't care about them - in this case you should consider getting a better card.

Why should I be forced to spend money to have wireless in a free OS?

Why did you spend your money on a card that does not have Linux support?

If this magical "repository" could work with my sound card, why didn't I have sound? And where is the documentation telling me that I should look in this repository first?

The drivers for your sound card should be in the newest stable kernel so after you update your fresh install of Ubuntu 8.10 it ought to just work - I mentioned the repository in case you want to install some proprietary drivers from the vendor or some other sound subsystem like OSS instead of ALSA because of some driver incompatibility etc.

Out of the box, WMP plays all of the formats I listed, no downloading required.

The playback of MPEG 2 DVB streams on Vista is broken in MS codecs and it doesn't play RealMedia or QuickTime does it?

I had to really dig to find a 64-bit version of Flash

Why did you "dig" since it was enough to open the repo, type in "flash", select the package and off you go.

It seems that even now in 2009 the only way to install something is to do it through the command line.

That is totally wrong - you run Synaptic and install everything in a GUI environmnet.

I liked how they've hidden the root account and instead just have you type your user password again when elevating privileges. It's less confusing to non-unix users yet still effective as an "are you sure" measure.

So we agree on something in the end.

Finally, responses like yours are why I dislike the Linux "community". It's very exclusive and filled with geeks who would rather keep their OS at 0.5% marketshare than actually help new users.

You probably prefer talking to some dude from MS support in India who doesn't understand what you are telling him or the support you get from MS on their websites which are full of useless "general tips" like: do you have an anti-virus installed or does anyone else than you use your computer etc. I gave you concrete information how to solve your problems and not some FUD you get from MS. And the market share is 4% (W3C stats).

Let me know when I can install the OS and have it work with my hardware. I always feel like I've traveled back in time 10 years when I install it.

You talked about Linux not being compatible with 5 year old hardware previously - and we all know how well Vista runs on 5 year old hardware - try running Aero on a netbook (which is 1 year old) and you'll find out that the intel graphics chipset is not suported - yet Compiz runs on it just fine.

k2t0f12d said:

I just bought two wireless pci adaptors, more or less at random from trade.co.nz, and loaded them up under Fedora 10 and Archlinux.

Card 1 is an ASUS WL-138G V2.  The kernel module loaded automatically as soon as the card was in and the computer was booted; however, ifconfig would not bring the device up.  It output the error SIOCSIFFLAGS: no such file or directory.  Downloading firmware required by the card and installing it corrected the problem (which were the file(s) SIOCSIFFLAGS was discovering missing).

It uses the b43 module and of course, requires firmware.

Card 2 is an Ovislink AirLive WT-2000PCI.  Same problem..same solution.

It uses the rt61pci (rt2x00) kernel module, and is one of the two known Ralink card types that also require firmware.


Even at random and with no previous compatibility research I was unable to get a card that doesn't function under a modern Linux kernel.  Although a card that doesn't need firmware and is 100% FSF would have been better, there was absolutely nothing technical preventing the cards from working.

Although a card that doesn't need firmware and is 100% FSF would have been better, there was absolutely nothing technical preventing the cards from working.

What prevented the cards from working is that their firmware is proprietary therefore it's ILLEGAL to include it together with the drivers in the Linux kernel just as it's ILLEGAL (in some countries) to include MP3 or DVD playback capability in an OS without paying the licenses to certain organizations - this way Windows for a long time didn't have MP3 playback and even Windows XP SP3 doesn't have DVD playback unless your install 3rd party software.