David finally took down Goliath

I'm sure all the people this month saying that IE has been decimated by Firefox/Chrome/Opera will, by next month, be saying that Microsoft's bundling of Internet Explorer makes everyone in the world too stupid to know that Firefox/Chrome/Opera exist.

May28th2018 said:

CreamFilling512 said:

*snip*

Where is Microsoft's roadmap on HTML5 implementation ?
Where are the IE HTML5 milestones?

(birds chirping...)

HTML5 is nowhere near finalisation, you know that MS doesn't implement non-final specifications so why raise the point?

W3bbo said:

May28th2018 said:

*snip*

HTML5 is nowhere near finalisation, you know that MS doesn't implement non-final specifications so why raise the point?

Somebody needs to relocate to Excuseville, WA.

May28th2018 said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

Somebody needs to relocate to Excuseville, WA.

Where is Mozilla full support for HTML5? Are they doing their usual half-assed support thinghie?

Pathetic.

May28th2018 said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

Somebody needs to relocate to Excuseville, WA.

What's your obession with W3bbo? He's one of the most vocal MS cynics on this board

Internet Explorer isn't dead, not by a long shot.

The Open Web platform (HTML/CSS/JS) has to compete against Flash, not Internet Explorer or Silverlight.  It's interesting that Internet Explorer's lack of adoption of HTML 5/CSS 3 strengthens Adobe's position, not Microsoft's.

May28th2018 said:

CreamFilling512 said:

*snip*

Where is Microsoft's roadmap on HTML5 implementation ?
Where are the IE HTML5 milestones?

(birds chirping...)

http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/html5.htm

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/ie/dd638025.aspx

and the std is not complete so they are working on it ... no one has it 100% cause it is not yet a "standard"

figuerres said:

May28th2018 said:

*snip*

http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/html5.htm

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/ie/dd638025.aspx

and the std is not complete so they are working on it ... no one has it 100% cause it is not yet a "standard"

Won't be a standard until a couple of browsers have implemented it.. so uh- what comes first.

blowdart said:

When most people experience HTML5 SVG/video/audio DOM, worker threads, and DOM 3D scripting that should finish IE off for good.

Most people won't care. Video is so fragmented each browser needs a different codec and so video will remain served by Flash and to a less extent Firefox. SVG is a niche format. Worker threads are a developer feature and 3D DOM scripting is, err, is what exactly? <canvas /> is 2D. What is this mysterious 3d you're going on about? (Oh and dear god but it's slow under Firefox.)

People may not care about or have any oppinion about the software infrastructure of a browser but what they will care about is whether their browser can run that cool page (application) that they just browsed to. - A developer feature is a user (experience) feature by proxy, whether they realize it or not.

littleguru said:

May28th2018 said:

*snip*

What you are saying doesn't make any sense. Why should someone implement something that might change from one day to the other?

W3C specifications only hit the final "TR" stage when there are at least two independent implementations. This does create a chicken/egg scenario for Microsoft as they won't implement specifications until they're finalised, which means it's up to the more flexible and supple development groups at Mozilla, Apple, and Opera to implement them first, which means IE will always have to play catch-up.

Microsoft needs to change their policy so they'll at least implement the major things that are unlikely to change, like rounded corners and client-side databases,

W3bbo said:

littleguru said:

*snip*

W3C specifications only hit the final "TR" stage when there are at least two independent implementations. This does create a chicken/egg scenario for Microsoft as they won't implement specifications until they're finalised, which means it's up to the more flexible and supple development groups at Mozilla, Apple, and Opera to implement them first, which means IE will always have to play catch-up.

Microsoft needs to change their policy so they'll at least implement the major things that are unlikely to change, like rounded corners and client-side databases,

"This does create a chicken/egg scenario for Microsoft as they won't implement specifications until they're finalised,"

They won't release a version of IE which implements draft versions, that doesn't mean they don't have one or aren't working on one.

blowdart said:

exoteric said:

*snip*

I disagree. What we're talking about here are things flash and silverlight already do and do well. People watch video through flash on YouTube and play games on PopCap with it. Cool is not a sufficent reason for non-geeks at all. Developers that implement things just to be cool will always play second fiddle to developers that actually develop for their users.

The question is whether developers will use these features and create compelling applications with them - talking about the full palette of features being implemented in browsers atm. I'm not convinced developers will not touch them because Silverlight and Flash exists.

exoteric said:

blowdart said:

*snip*

The question is whether developers will use these features and create compelling applications with them - talking about the full palette of features being implemented in browsers atm. I'm not convinced developers will not touch them because Silverlight and Flash exists.

On a personal note:  HTTP and HTML are getting so overloaded with stuff... IMHO

figuerres said:

exoteric said:

*snip*

On a personal note:  HTTP and HTML are getting so overloaded with stuff... IMHO

What is HTTP getting overloaded with?  The standard hasn't changed since HTTP 1.1 was finalized in 1997.

figuerres said:

exoteric said:

*snip*

On a personal note:  HTTP and HTML are getting so overloaded with stuff... IMHO

^ This, with a vengeance. I hate writing web applications. It's my job, but I hate it. I hate having to ditch smooth development of rich desktop applications in favor of having to write unreliable hacks in a language that's intended to display pages about cats rather than serve as an application framework. In order to work around the many disadvantages web applications have over rich client applications, we keep stacking more and more stuff on it, like AJAX and whatnot, and it just becomes more and more of an unworkable mess.

Whenever I'm writing a web application, the ways in which I have to stuggle and wrestle with http, HTML, Javascript and CSS to do what I want feel like I'm using a wheelbarrow to push a dead horse over a finish line.

So because we've all collectively decided that we should just keep adding to these awful outdated technologies to bring applications to the web, my job consists of pushing a dead horse over a finish line, using a wobbly wheelbarrow. Every. Single. Day.

Lately, I've opted to to try and automate our development process rather than write more web stuff. I'm actually preferring having to wrestle with the EnvDTE namespaces, rather than writing for the web. It's that bad.

CannotResolveSymbol said:

figuerres said:

*snip*

What is HTTP getting overloaded with?  The standard hasn't changed since HTTP 1.1 was finalized in 1997.

doing more and more stuff ... it was designed to deliver web pages and is stateless

today we have hacked it into servering applications, having state on the server, doing web services, rss, streaming data/video/audio/other files.

sure using port 80 and http makes dealing with firewalls simple. but at some point dumping all this traffic and more on to http just gets silly. we do have other ports and we might be better served by having a few standard transports for non-html data interchnage.

not the end of the world... just seems like we have made a mess that at some point should be re-thought to make things a bit cleaner.

and possibly better with good examination of what we are doing and planning to do.