Too bad. Maybe someone will create Courier-like software for the iPad.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/29/microsoft-confirms-kills-courier-in-one-fell-swoop/

CreamFilling512 said:

How do you make software Courier-like?  Something like OneNote?

Yeah. I guess.

I think MS Management has to seriously rethink their product lifecycle management style, where they overpromise or atleast create great enthusiasm thru videos and their talks and then never deliver ( not even under ... ).  I think in the current network connected world where news travels so fast ... it will create a disillusion about MS promises in the minds of general public and specially in the minds of MS followers ... 

So whats next Natal Cancellation ... I dont think Dovella will be a fanboy of MS a lot longer

magicalclick said:

I have never consider it alive to begin with. I never understand why they even make such eleborate video to begin with.

Well, at some point I think they were actually planning to release it, but lost their bottle (which they tend to do with most of their innovative stuff).

Although I would love to have something like this, from a business point of view the decision makes sense. They have the iPad finally showing folk how tablets should be done (though I'm not a fan) and Android making its way onto other devices.

To cap it all, HP has come to its senses and cancelled the awful Slate abomination, which is excellent news because it means they've probably decided to work on a tablet device running WebOS.

The market for mobile devices is getting pretty crowded and MS is getting forced out. They can't afford to dilute their efforts. I think we'll see a few more interesting project cancellations before Christmas.

Ray7 said:

magicalclick said:

*snip*

Well, at some point I think they were actually planning to release it, but lost their bottle (which they tend to do with most of their innovative stuff).

 

Although I would love to have something like this, from a business point of view the decision makes sense. They have the iPad finally showing folk how tablets should be done (though I'm not a fan) and Android making its way onto other devices.

 

To cap it all, HP has come to its senses and cancelled the awful Slate abomination, which is excellent news because it means they've probably decided to work on a tablet device running WebOS.

 

The market for mobile devices is getting pretty crowded and MS is getting forced out. They can't afford to dilute their efforts. I think we'll see a few more interesting project cancellations before Christmas.

 

The real disappointment for me is that this will probably mean the end for handwriting recognition.

Ah, well…

magicalclick said:

I have never consider it alive to begin with. I never understand why they even make such eleborate video to begin with.

Speculation from a few comments on Engadget. 

MS was hoping to slow iPad sales by releasing more videos and leaking a 'tentative release date'. 

I think they were going to release something, but realised that with their partners deserting Windows left, right and centre then they could no longer afford to introduce another OS paradigm. 

I think it was research project but kind'a cool. I would have bought one of those if it was out.

Bas said:

Microsoft unable to deliver something cool and hugely anticipated? Shocker.

*lol* yepp, right on the spot.

turrican said:

You scared me, I thought you were talking about THE FONT. *lol*... I went like "WTF?".

 

I think it was research project but kind'a cool. I would have bought one of those if it was out.

lol!

In one fell swoop they just conceded the tablet market, the e-reader market, the education market, and the professional business organizer market.  I will be glad when Microsoft is lead by someone that has vision enough to create the future and not just follow it when it's financially convenient.  All the while Online Services eats up more and more of the company in the chase for "three screens and a cloud" while competition plans, creates, and executes circles around them.

Microsoft doesn't get it, and HP is showing that they do.  The future is the computing appliance, not a jack of all trades system.  We don't expect our refrigerators to microwave our food and in the future we won't expect our computing experience to revolve around a PC.  Instead we will continue to evolve to points where we use specialized computing devices designed to handle tasks at hand.  This is where the market is, not the "cloud."  We have come to a point in computing where all the manufacturers are the same, most are just branding companies that assemble a parts list of common components and a shiny case. There isn’t any innovation and there isn't any model that can continually succeed in that environment.  The only way these companies can innovate further is to control the software completely.   As such, Microsoft will find itself pushed further and further away as companies strive to increase profits in a commoditized market and cut out the software middle man. This is where HP gets it with the purchase of Palm and the change of plans for the slate.

In the meantime, the one computer manufacturer that does distinguish itself using commoditized hardware today is Apple. You better believe that Dell and HP are watching their success and wondering how they can emulate it.  Apple has with OSX cut out the middleman and built a platform that allows them to distinguish themselves and control their own destiny.

RLO said:

I guess Microsoft has decided that it wants to be IBM.

 

In one fell swoop they just conceded the tablet market, the e-reader market, the education market, and the professional business organizer market.  I will be glad when Microsoft is lead by someone that has vision enough to create the future and not just follow it when it's financially convenient.  All the while Online Services eats up more and more of the company in the chase for "three screens and a cloud" while competition plans, creates, and executes circles around them.

 

Microsoft doesn't get it, and HP is showing that they do.  The future is the computing appliance, not a jack of all trades system.  We don't expect our refrigerators to microwave our food and in the future we won't expect our computing experience to revolve around a PC.  Instead we will continue to evolve to points where we use specialized computing devices designed to handle tasks at hand.  This is where the market is, not the "cloud."  We have come to a point in computing where all the manufacturers are the same, most are just branding companies that assemble a parts list of common components and a shiny case. There isn’t any innovation and there isn't any model that can continually succeed in that environment.  The only way these companies can innovate further is to control the software completely.   As such, Microsoft will find itself pushed further and further away as companies strive to increase profits in a commoditized market and cut out the software middle man. This is where HP gets it with the purchase of Palm and the change of plans for the slate.

 

In the meantime, the one computer manufacturer that does distinguish itself using commoditized hardware today is Apple. You better believe that Dell and HP are watching their success and wondering how they can emulate it.  Apple has with OSX cut out the middleman and built a platform that allows them to distinguish themselves and control their own destiny.

 

 

Microsoft never really was a hardware company, they do software.

I can argue against what you said with just one word :

Silverlight.

turrican said:

RLO said:

*snip*

Microsoft never really was a hardware company, they do software.

I can argue against what you said with just one word :

 

Silverlight.

What about it?

turrican said:

RLO said:

*snip*

Microsoft never really was a hardware company, they do software.

I can argue against what you said with just one word :

 

Silverlight.

I agree that Microsoft is a software company, what I am trying to say is that because of the global market, there is no such thing as a strictly hardware company and the only growth is in customized software for comoditized hardware.  Who manufactures the hardware products of today?  Look at the personal computer market, you will find that it is a small band of actual manufacturers that supply parts and assembly to companies that place their name and design the box.  HP and Dell are not making computers, they are contracting them out to manufacturers and assemblers in China.  Is it too much of a leap to think that Microsoft could do these same contracts and cut out the OEM?  Is it too much of a leap to think these OEM's could build and customize their own software and cut out Microsoft?  In one week we see the Courier a Microsoft prototype hardware/software computing appliance killed and in the same week we see HP buy a mobile software company and kill a product line running Microsoft's software.  So, tell me which is the smarter business decision?

You mention Silverlight, and I agree it's a powerful future platform, but can you name me a computing appliance product that runs it?

iPhone and iPad?  Nope.

Blackberry OS? Nope.

Zune HD? Nope.

Windows Phone 7, when released.

Kin? Nope.

Kindle? Nope.

Nook? Nope.

In order for Silverlight to make a difference, it's going to have to be adopted and installed on more platforms than just PC, Mac, and Linux boxes.

If the future is computing appliances, as we can see by the market growth of smartphones and e-readers, then Microsoft is doing abysmally in that product category.   There is promise with Windows Phone 7, but in the end we will see the same issues that have affected the PC market affect the smartphone market.  Did HP make a smartphone, or did HTC make HP branded smartphones running Microsoft software?  What happens now that HTC will make HP phones running WebOS?   Killing the Courier project has effectively relegated Microsoft out of the competition for the future of computing experiences. Amazon and Apple will control the ebook market with the Nook having it's place.  Apple will control the tablet market or HP with WebOS.  Apple and Google will continue to increase marketshare and mindshare for their phones as more developers flock to the platform, and Microsoft might be able to manage a slice before their competition adds the Windows Phone 7 features.

turrican said:

RLO said:

*snip*

Microsoft never really was a hardware company, they do software.

I can argue against what you said with just one word :

 

Silverlight.

Microsoft may not be a 'hardware' company, but I've been touch typing for almost 3 decades and I've never seen a better keyboard than theirs.

RLO said:

turrican said:

*snip*

I agree that Microsoft is a software company, what I am trying to say is that because of the global market, there is no such thing as a strictly hardware company and the only growth is in customized software for comoditized hardware.  Who manufactures the hardware products of today?  Look at the personal computer market, you will find that it is a small band of actual manufacturers that supply parts and assembly to companies that place their name and design the box.  HP and Dell are not making computers, they are contracting them out to manufacturers and assemblers in China.  Is it too much of a leap to think that Microsoft could do these same contracts and cut out the OEM?  Is it too much of a leap to think these OEM's could build and customize their own software and cut out Microsoft?  In one week we see the Courier a Microsoft prototype hardware/software computing appliance killed and in the same week we see HP buy a mobile software company and kill a product line running Microsoft's software.  So, tell me which is the smarter business decision?

 

You mention Silverlight, and I agree it's a powerful future platform, but can you name me a computing appliance product that runs it?

iPhone and iPad?  Nope.

Blackberry OS? Nope.

Zune HD? Nope.

Windows Phone 7, when released.

Kin? Nope.

Kindle? Nope.

Nook? Nope.

 

In order for Silverlight to make a difference, it's going to have to be adopted and installed on more platforms than just PC, Mac, and Linux boxes.

 

If the future is computing appliances, as we can see by the market growth of smartphones and e-readers, then Microsoft is doing abysmally in that product category.   There is promise with Windows Phone 7, but in the end we will see the same issues that have affected the PC market affect the smartphone market.  Did HP make a smartphone, or did HTC make HP branded smartphones running Microsoft software?  What happens now that HTC will make HP phones running WebOS?   Killing the Courier project has effectively relegated Microsoft out of the competition for the future of computing experiences. Amazon and Apple will control the ebook market with the Nook having it's place.  Apple will control the tablet market or HP with WebOS.  Apple and Google will continue to increase marketshare and mindshare for their phones as more developers flock to the platform, and Microsoft might be able to manage a slice before their competition adds the Windows Phone 7 features.

 

 

 

Well, I thought the Courier might prove me wrong, but MS really is past its best. But look at how much cash IBM rakes in, even though it doesn't make the headlines anymore. 

This mobile tech is for the youngsters (like Google) and the older guys who like look hip by hanging out with the youngsters (Apple). And MS is happy to watch them while it sits back in its armchair wearing comfy slippers and smoking a pipe; living off its past success and wallowing in a fug of fine tobacco and haemorrhoid cream.

I think it's just the natural order of things.

Ray7 said:

RLO said:

*snip*

Well, I thought the Courier might prove me wrong, but MS really is past its best. But look at how much cash IBM rakes in, even though it doesn't make the headlines anymore. 

 

This mobile tech is for the youngsters (like Google) and the older guys who like look hip by hanging out with the youngsters (Apple). And MS is happy to watch them while it sits back in its armchair wearing comfy slippers and smoking a pipe; living off its past success and wallowing in a fug of fine tobacco and haemorrhoid cream.

 

I think it's just the natural order of things.

Ray you are right, but I will go one step further.  It's not the company, it's the leadership.  I have seen so many great things come out of Microsoft.  It's only in the past couple of years that I have seen the company move backwards.   Remember, it was youth and innovation that wanted to create and market Courier, you already described what killed it.

Last year when I saw the direction the company started to go down, I started hedging bets and bought my first Apple product, a Mac Mini.  This year I wanted to see how things would shake out and it looks like it's time to buy an iPad and begin learning xcode and opengl.  I doubt I was the only one that said hold on the iPad for the Courier. 

CreamFilling512 said:

Sorry, but Natal is coming out this year and it's a billion times cooler than the cheesy Courier videos.  It could bring about whole new user interaction paradigms.

It 'could' do a lot of things if:

a/. It doesn't get dropped.

b/. It's as good the video demonstration.

Nothing about it will be clear until it's actually shipped.

xgamer said:

Though I have been skeptic  about ( as that many other MS Research - Techfest / Concept Video  - Prototypes ) Courier and was expecting it to be another vaporware, I feel sad sometimes when my feeling become truth.

 

I think MS Management has to seriously rethink their product lifecycle management style, where they overpromise or atleast create great enthusiasm thru videos and their talks and then never deliver ( not even under ... ).  I think in the current network connected world where news travels so fast ... it will create a disillusion about MS promises in the minds of general public and specially in the minds of MS followers ... 

 

So whats next Natal Cancellation ... I dont think Dovella will be a fanboy of MS a lot longer

 Did MS ever even announced they were going to deliver such a product? It's not a cancellation, if it was never on track to be made into a retail product. 

 I was looking forward to it either way, but I knew the chances of it never making it to market were high. Looks like an ipad will have to suffice, 

algorith said:

xgamer said:

*snip*

 Did MS ever even announced they were going to deliver such a product? It's not a cancellation, if it was never on track to be made into a retail product. 

 

 I was looking forward to it either way, but I knew the chances of it never making it to market were high. Looks like an ipad will have to suffice, 

Nope. They did not. A lot of 'leaks' designed to derail the iPad, but no actual announcement, no.

RLO said:

Ray7 said:

*snip*

Ray you are right, but I will go one step further.  It's not the company, it's the leadership.  I have seen so many great things come out of Microsoft.  It's only in the past couple of years that I have seen the company move backwards.   Remember, it was youth and innovation that wanted to create and market Courier, you already described what killed it.

 

Last year when I saw the direction the company started to go down, I started hedging bets and bought my first Apple product, a Mac Mini.  This year I wanted to see how things would shake out and it looks like it's time to buy an iPad and begin learning xcode and opengl.  I doubt I was the only one that said hold on the iPad for the Courier. 

 

 

Well, yes, it is the leadership. But it's the same with IBM; an enormous talent pool with unimaginative management. Fortunately, that doesn't seem to have hurt the company's bottom line.

All this means that for innovation, the industry has to look elsewhere. But let's face it, since the iPhone landed, the industry has been doing that anyway.

But before jumping to the iPhone/iPad have a careful look around at what other companies are doing and without the kind of restrictions that Apple are imposing.  I'm in no hurry so I'll wait to see what HP does with the Palm thing.

As disappointing as the Courier cancellation is, we have to remember that it was never made it past vapour. We've seen MS do this countless times before so we should know that trying to encourage them to release something as innovative as this was never going to happen. Or perhaps, as many said, it never got past a few clever video simulations.

Ray7 said:

RLO said:

*snip*

Well, yes, it is the leadership. But it's the same with IBM; an enormous talent pool with unimaginative management. Fortunately, that doesn't seem to have hurt the company's bottom line.

 

All this means that for innovation, the industry has to look elsewhere. But let's face it, since the iPhone landed, the industry has been doing that anyway.

 

But before jumping to the iPhone/iPad have a careful look around at what other companies are doing and without the kind of restrictions that Apple are imposing.  I'm in no hurry so I'll wait to see what HP does with the Palm thing.

 

As disappointing as the Courier cancellation is, we have to remember that it was never made it past vapour. We've seen MS do this countless times before so we should know that trying to encourage them to release something as innovative as this was never going to happen. Or perhaps, as many said, it never got past a few clever video simulations.

without knowing what the state of the project was, it's impossible to say whether it was a good idea to cancel.  

Ray7 said:

CreamFilling512 said:

*snip*

It 'could' do a lot of things if:

 

a/. It doesn't get dropped.

b/. It's as good the video demonstration.

 

Nothing about it will be clear until it's actually shipped.

 

Nah we'll see a ton about it at E3, that's in just over a month.  Natal and Nintendo's 3D autostereoscopic handheld, gonna be an awesome E3.  Should merge everything, do a Courier with Natal motion tracking and auto-stereoscopic 3D, will blow your mind.

Ray7 said:

RLO said:

*snip*

Well, yes, it is the leadership. But it's the same with IBM; an enormous talent pool with unimaginative management. Fortunately, that doesn't seem to have hurt the company's bottom line.

 

All this means that for innovation, the industry has to look elsewhere. But let's face it, since the iPhone landed, the industry has been doing that anyway.

 

But before jumping to the iPhone/iPad have a careful look around at what other companies are doing and without the kind of restrictions that Apple are imposing.  I'm in no hurry so I'll wait to see what HP does with the Palm thing.

 

As disappointing as the Courier cancellation is, we have to remember that it was never made it past vapour. We've seen MS do this countless times before so we should know that trying to encourage them to release something as innovative as this was never going to happen. Or perhaps, as many said, it never got past a few clever video simulations.

Ray, I understand your point about waiting.  I don't plan on running out and getting one next week, but it has went up on my index of purchase choices.  This fall will probably be a better gauge on the value of the device.  Up until this point I have been anti-ipad, but I expect to see the education market jump on this.  Textbook publishers are going to be pushing it and tying in textbook software to it as well.  It's a matter of time now.  Apple has already made inroads with iTunes U.  I expect them to get a full educational market synergy going as Microsoft lets all the pieces fall through their hands.  It's a shame really.

As this happens, I have to hedge my bets.  I would still prefer MS products and solutions, but they are often cancelled or re-org'd, then delayed.  In the mean time, Apple is all "shiny" and "new" and "innovative."  When you can point to better products you can slow an organization down from getting too excited and adoptiing early.  When there is no other product and their peers are jumping on a bandwagon, it's kinda hard to explain why they shouldn't too.

In reply to CF:

I can appreciate the technology that is behind Natal, and I look at it as a stepping stone to the future, although it's amazing it's not very purposeful.  I can see no application of this technology in a classroom or business.  It makes a nifty feature to show off to your friends, kinda like the Wii that gathers dust in most people's homes.  I could even see it being applied in one use situations, kinda like waving your hands and fingers as a password gesture while face recognition confirms who you are.  I could see it applied to a dashboard set up, like Minority Report.  I don't see it being useful in creating a Word document or Excel Spreadsheet until Word and Excel get a new UI interface again and even then, it's going to require you to lift your hands off the keyboard and mouse to manage it.  Something most people won't do because it's unnatural and seems like work when you have become efficient with typing and mouse manipulation.

NUI's are best used in situations designed to take advantage of them.  Usually, in replicating real world interaction with virtual objects.  Something like Courier, benefitted from this idea, because it used some NUI, with a system designed to virtualize the most common object every person in the first world is familiar with: a notebook.   Natal would not be able to do that for the computer until the whole GUI is scrapped and rewritten for it, or you get a reduced task specific version like Media Center .Even then you are going to be limited by what you can do, because it still relies on a keyboard for efficieint input.

Ray7 said:

algorith said:

*snip*

Nope. They did not. A lot of 'leaks' designed to derail the iPad, but no actual announcement, no.

 

The quality of the Courier concept video led me to believe this was on track for the market. It lacked the "Research Concept" label. Fool me twice, shame on me

CreamFilling512 said:

Ray7 said:

*snip*

Nah we'll see a ton about it at E3, that's in just over a month.  Natal and Nintendo's 3D autostereoscopic handheld, gonna be an awesome E3.  Should merge everything, do a Courier with Natal motion tracking and auto-stereoscopic 3D, will blow your mind.

I'd be surprised if it is anywhere near as good as the demo.

exoteric said:

Ray7 said:

*snip*

The quality of the Courier concept video led me to believe this was on track for the market. It lacked the "Research Concept" label. Fool me twice, shame on me

Well, I wasn't so sure about the video because it was just a mockup, but when a picture of it turned up on Endadget then I was about 80% sure it would eventually see the light of day. In hindsight, I think this was just a desperate move by MS to slow the iPad before it launched. As it turned out, it was a bit like standing on the track and raising your hand to stop a bullet train. When it became obvious that the iPad was a runaway success, MS simply threw in the towel.

It does show how things change in the tech industry though. I can still remember Jobs standing on stage and thanking Gates for his pocket-change investment in Apple.

contextfree said:

Ray7 said:

*snip*

without knowing what the state of the project was, it's impossible to say whether it was a good idea to cancel.  

Well, we can say it would be a good idea to cancel for one reason: It would have put Microsoft head to head with Apple, and in that scenario, Ms will always lose.

The leak to Engadget tested the water, and as we all saw a few days later, it didn't make a ripple against the iPad. Apple has crushed MS in the mobile space, so why generate more embarrassing headlines by releasing another product for Jobs to p**s all over?

He may lack imagination, but Ballmer is a pragmatist who knows when he's beaten.  He cleverly put out feelers, saw he was in for another Apple-slapping, and wisely ran for the hills.

RLO said:

As this happens, I have to hedge my bets.  I would still prefer MS products and solutions, but they are often cancelled or re-org'd, then delayed.  In the mean time, Apple is all "shiny" and "new" and "innovative."  When you can point to better products you can slow an organization down from getting too excited and adoptiing early.  When there is no other product and their peers are jumping on a bandwagon, it's kinda hard to explain why they shouldn't too.

Good point, though I tend to avoid MS tech for precisely the reason we're discussing here. The company has been thrashing around looking for direction for years.  It tries something, cancels, tries something else.  I was playing wait and see with Silverlight, and with MS comments regarding HTML5, I think I'll skip it (besides, it's unlikely that Apple will allow it onto the iPad).

Now I think the iPad is just the next stage in what is a brilliant strategy.  Jobs knew (and said) he couldn't attack the Windows monopoly head-on, so he established a beach-head in the mobile space, slowly building strength and support. Then he releases what is essentially a big iPod. Lots of folk (me included) didn't get it, but now I've thought about it, it's a master stroke.

An ex-Apple engineer said it would be easier to carry on working with the iPhoneOS than fix the problems with MacOSX.  Apple has already added multi-tasking. What if, a few years down the line, they completely blindside MS with an ARM-powered laptop running iPhoneOS on steroids; multitouch-enabled and running a new generation of production applications (video editors that you manipulate with your hands?). By this time he will have millions of customers who have become familiar with the iPhone/iPad for who this will be just a natural progression.

Though I still don't want an iPad.

Ray7 said:

RLO said:

*snip*

 

Good point, though I tend to avoid MS tech for precisely the reason we're discussing here. The company has been thrashing around looking for direction for years.  It tries something, cancels, tries something else.  I was playing wait and see with Silverlight, and with MS comments regarding HTML5, I think I'll skip it (besides, it's unlikely that Apple will allow it onto the iPad).

 

Now I think the iPad is just the next stage in what is a brilliant strategy.  Jobs knew (and said) he couldn't attack the Windows monopoly head-on, so he established a beach-head in the mobile space, slowly building strength and support. Then he releases what is essentially a big iPod. Lots of folk (me included) didn't get it, but now I've thought about it, it's a master stroke.

 

An ex-Apple engineer said it would be easier to carry on working with the iPhoneOS than fix the problems with MacOSX.  Apple has already added multi-tasking. What if, a few years down the line, they completely blindside MS with an ARM-powered laptop running iPhoneOS on steroids; multitouch-enabled and running a new generation of production applications (video editors that you manipulate with your hands?). By this time he will have millions of customers who have become familiar with the iPhone/iPad for who this will be just a natural progression.

 

Though I still don't want an iPad.

 

Ray, the  Courier became real to me when the NYT reported on it. 

You may be right that Ballmer ran for the hills on this, but I would argue if you cripple yourself before you ever get out the door,  you will never beat anyone in any space (See Zune).  If he had actually looked at the influencers with the Courier, he would have seen that there was a larger market that did not want an iPad either.  I know I didn't get a market survey on Courier so without any communication on why this was scrapped, it's going to be hard to see it as anything other than Microsoft being an idiot.

I find it very funny that Apple is using Microsoft's strategy to slowly build itself bigger than MS.  Focusing on pulling one customer group to bring forward another.  MS at its height pulled the business, which in turn pulled the consumer, which in turn pulled the education market.  Apple focused on the consumer group (realizing this is where business leaders are), which in turn pulled the business side (iphone with exchange), and now is beginning to pull on the education side as well.  Microsoft pointed to the diversity of software as the strength of its platform, now Apple points to the diversity of its software as its platform strength.  I feel like I stepped into Bizarro world.

I will agree with you that Apple's future will be iPhone OS.  It just makes too much sense. Keep your software market online and make sure that no viruses/malware can be installed by approving everything that is installed on the device.  All the while making a cut on the developer and buyer.  It's a monopoly, but how is this any different than video game consoles? 

cbae said:

This thread sounds like it's coming from an Apple fanboi site. RLO claims to "prefer MS products and solution" yet wants to "hedge his bets" because MS supposedly cancels or delays projects all the time. Yet, in another post in the same thread he praises HP for cancelling the Slate running Windows 7 in favor of some speculative WebOS device? That's funny because, as far as we know beyond rumors, the Courier didn't get beyond the conceptual stage, whereas the HP Slate was sitting in Ballmer's grubby hands in a non-imagined embodiment at CES.

Cbae, if you want to debate the merits of the arguement, please feel free. As far as personal attacks, it's uncalled for in this forum.   I am a Microsoft consumer, user, and implementer.  I  am a system builder, a technician, and a student developer as well as the goto guy for tech planning in my prior career.  Prior to that I was a salesman for about 10 years in the retail sector.  I know a lot about marketing and a fair amount about tech.

As far as prefering MS solutions and products let me roll out a few.

I currently own a Zune 30, Zune 80, Zune 120, Zune 8, and a Zune HD. 

I am currently an Xbox Live Subscriber since 2005.

I have held a Zune Pass Subscription since December of 2006.

I have been a Technet Subscriber since 2007.

I have owned MS routers and network cards.

I own 2 Xbox 360s and an original Xbox, not to mention countless accessories and games.

I have owned 6 Window Mobile Phones.

I own countless Microsoft Keyboards and Mice, including one Trackball.

I currently run Windows Media Center for my DVR and use my Xboxes as Media Center Extenders.

I own a Samsung Q1 UMPC running Origami.

I own a Touchsmart PC in order to test touch and handwriting recognition in Windows 7.

I own a Microsoft Webcam.

I use Microsoft Office as my primary document/calculation/presentation needs.

I have deployed Sharepoint Services for a College Campus, insisted and deployed Blackboard on MS Servers with SQL Server 2005 instead of a linux alternative, and have deployed Steady State on hundreds of computers, not to mention planning for deployments of new MS technologies as they are evaluated and become available.

When I complain about Microsoft, I usually have a good reason and I tend to back it up.  My career depends on tech, and as such, I have to make decisions that will benefit me in the long run, not Microsoft.  Until now, I have been a loyal customer, but I also have to be realistic.  Realism dictates that companies rise and fall and only blind fanboys and fools won't admit it.  Like I said, I am hedging my bets.

RLO said:

cbae said:

*snip*

Cbae, if you want to debate the merits of the arguement, please feel free. As far as personal attacks, it's uncalled for in this forum.   I am a Microsoft consumer, user, and implementer.  I  am a system builder, a technician, and a student developer as well as the goto guy for tech planning in my prior career.  Prior to that I was a salesman for about 10 years in the retail sector.  I know a lot about marketing and a fair amount about tech.

 

As far as prefering MS solutions and products let me roll out a few.

 

I currently own a Zune 30, Zune 80, Zune 120, Zune 8, and a Zune HD. 

I am currently an Xbox Live Subscriber since 2005.

I have held a Zune Pass Subscription since December of 2006.

I have been a Technet Subscriber since 2007.

I have owned MS routers and network cards.

I own 2 Xbox 360s and an original Xbox, not to mention countless accessories and games.

I have owned 6 Window Mobile Phones.

I own countless Microsoft Keyboards and Mice, including one Trackball.

I currently run Windows Media Center for my DVR and use my Xboxes as Media Center Extenders.

I own a Samsung Q1 UMPC running Origami.

I own a Touchsmart PC in order to test touch and handwriting recognition in Windows 7.

I own a Microsoft Webcam.

I use Microsoft Office as my primary document/calculation/presentation needs.

 

I have deployed Sharepoint Services for a College Campus, insisted and deployed Blackboard on MS Servers with SQL Server 2005 instead of a linux alternative, and have deployed Steady State on hundreds of computers, not to mention planning for deployments of new MS technologies as they are evaluated and become available.

 

When I complain about Microsoft, I usually have a good reason and I tend to back it up.  My career depends on tech, and as such, I have to make decisions that will benefit me in the long run, not Microsoft.  Until now, I have been a loyal customer, but I also have to be realistic.  Realism dictates that companies rise and fall and only blind fanboys and fools won't admit it.  Like I said, I am hedging my bets.

 

 

You're that entrenched in Microsoft technologies, and you're only now "hedging your bets" because some unannounced project that didn't get a stone's throw past Microsoft Research anyway is cancelled? Seriously? Are you really that mesmerized by the iPad to the point that if Microsoft doesn't have a competing product you'll feel left behind?

cbae said:

RLO said:

*snip*

You're that entrenched in Microsoft technologies, and you're only now "hedging your bets" because some unannounced project that didn't get a stone's throw past Microsoft Research anyway is cancelled? Seriously? Are you really that mesmerized by the iPad to the point that if Microsoft doesn't have a competing product you'll feel left behind?

No, Cbae, I am not entrenched in anything.  At any point I can walk around my house and replace Windows with Ubuntu and open office and not flinch. I can call the satelite company and with a portable hard drive use their DVR solution.  I can easily fire up the Wii or PS3 and game.   I prefer MS technologies.  There's a difference. 

As far as the iPad, I can tell that you are not familiar with how Education Tech works, so let me enlighten you.  Most tech choices tend to be driven after a flashy salesperson has roamed the halls and convinced some administrator that they need the "hot new thing" or a textbook salesman has come along with premade content that ties into the textbook that teachers must have.  So at that point it comes down to evaluators and implementers.  Sometimes you can delay choices being made usually by pointing that the tech is not ready or by pointing to another product and saying this is probably a better solution.  In the case of the iPad, because they have gotten the textbook companies to jump on board, they will be pushing their software solutions on the iPad as the "hot new thing" which brings it back to the evaluators and implementers.  Being able to point to a product like Courier and tell them that this is probably the better solution would hold off an iPad implementation, but in the end it will depend on the innovations on the device and how it can increase learning productivity.

Ms could have had the textbook companies on board as well if they had kept up.  MS has had an ebook solution for several years now that they have let gather dust.  In fact they have not updated their catalog to reflect the University of Virginia's Electronic Text Center dropping .lit (MS Readers native format) support.  When the "hot new thing" in the consumer market is ebooks, MS was too early and not dedicated enough.

In my field, I am going to have to deal with the iPad whether I want to or not.  I will have to evaluate it.  I'd rather have the pro's and cons of the device from first hand experience rather than rely upon others.  And if there is a push to deploy the device, I would much rather be familiar with it than to deploy it in ignorance. 

 I am not mesmerized by the product, and began hedging my bets last year after the reorg in the company before there was even a glimmer of the Courier or iPad.  Microsoft's actions since then have not increased my confidence in leadership as more and more consumer tech/software slips and educational products are cancelled or  reorg'd.  As the development base and educational innovation is pulled towards Apple products, I am going to have to shift as well.  As far as my comments on the HP Slate etc. , I still insist that the overall future of computing is the computing as an appliance paradigm and companies that get that and have an end to end solution will do well in the future.

RLO said:

cbae said:

*snip*

No, Cbae, I am not entrenched in anything.  At any point I can walk around my house and replace Windows with Ubuntu and open office and not flinch. I can call the satelite company and with a portable hard drive use their DVR solution.  I can easily fire up the Wii or PS3 and game.   I prefer MS technologies.  There's a difference. 

 

As far as the iPad, I can tell that you are not familiar with how Education Tech works, so let me enlighten you.  Most tech choices tend to be driven after a flashy salesperson has roamed the halls and convinced some administrator that they need the "hot new thing" or a textbook salesman has come along with premade content that ties into the textbook that teachers must have.  So at that point it comes down to evaluators and implementers.  Sometimes you can delay choices being made usually by pointing that the tech is not ready or by pointing to another product and saying this is probably a better solution.  In the case of the iPad, because they have gotten the textbook companies to jump on board, they will be pushing their software solutions on the iPad as the "hot new thing" which brings it back to the evaluators and implementers.  Being able to point to a product like Courier and tell them that this is probably the better solution would hold off an iPad implementation, but in the end it will depend on the innovations on the device and how it can increase learning productivity.

Ms could have had the textbook companies on board as well if they had kept up.  MS has had an ebook solution for several years now that they have let gather dust.  In fact they have not updated their catalog to reflect the University of Virginia's Electronic Text Center dropping .lit (MS Readers native format) support.  When the "hot new thing" in the consumer market is ebooks, MS was too early and not dedicated enough.

In my field, I am going to have to deal with the iPad whether I want to or not.  I will have to evaluate it.  I'd rather have the pro's and cons of the device from first hand experience rather than rely upon others.  And if there is a push to deploy the device, I would much rather be familiar with it than to deploy it in ignorance. 

 I am not mesmerized by the product, and began hedging my bets last year after the reorg in the company before there was even a glimmer of the Courier or iPad.  Microsoft's actions since then have not increased my confidence in leadership as more and more consumer tech/software slips and educational products are cancelled or  reorg'd.  As the development base and educational innovation is pulled towards Apple products, I am going to have to shift as well.  As far as my comments on the HP Slate etc. , I still insist that the overall future of computing is the computing as an appliance paradigm and companies that get that and have an end to end solution will do well in the future.

The problem with the iPad as an ebook solution is that it's all that it's really capable of. As a device for taking input, it's inferior to a notebook or even a netbook. What university's administration is going to saddle the entire school with a requirement to adopt technology that's flashy but doesn't replace a damn thing? If your target market is limited to those that only look at the "hot new thing" instead of looking at the long-term impact of such decisions, then these students protesting tuition hikes have a lot more reason to be protesting. Hopefully, the current protests will give these schools pause before they make a dumba$$ decision like selecting the iPad as a solution platform for anything related to academics.

cbae said:

RLO said:

*snip*

The problem with the iPad as an ebook solution is that it's all that it's really capable of. As a device for taking input, it's inferior to a notebook or even a netbook. What university's administration is going to saddle the entire school with a requirement to adopt technology that's flashy but doesn't replace a damn thing? If your target market is limited to those that only look at the "hot new thing" instead of looking at the long-term impact of such decisions, then these students protesting tuition hikes have a lot more reason to be protesting. Hopefully, the current protests will give these schools pause before they make a dumba$$ decision like selecting the iPad as a solution platform for anything related to academics.

I agree with you, but understand what should be and what will be are two different things.  A University doesn't have to buy the devices in order for them to come into use.  Take Mizzou's example from their  Journalism School.  An iPhone/touch was required for the class.  If you have access to iTunes, fire it up and look at how many schools are using an Apple solution to deliver lectures by podcast.  It's not always about input and notes, but having these solutions + note taking is what made the Courier concept a compelling solution that could be pointed to.  For most non-tech people, these solutions are about making impact in the classroom and the evolution of online learning.  It's not about what works best technically, but what works best pedagogically.  That's why Harvard had the kindle study, and if you look at the feedback from that, you can see that students wanted the ability to take notes as well as have an all in one solution for textbooks.  As far as costs to the student, I assume you haven't bought supplies or textbooks lately.  I think this past year the bookstore was able to gouge me of about $600.00, and that's for basic classes.  If I was a med student, I could easily be paying $1000 plus in supplies.  When you look at it like that, add in the cost of an iPad over 4 years, then it starts making sense.  Besides, these students are already immersed in the iPod/iPhone culture, it's not a hard sell to them.

Do I think that the iPad is the ultimate solution?  No.  The ultimate solution was terminated this past week.  That being said, the iPad is one of several solutions in place and should not be discounted especially when firmware updates can solve many of the complaints in the future.

RLO said:

cbae said:

*snip*

Cbae, if you want to debate the merits of the arguement, please feel free. As far as personal attacks, it's uncalled for in this forum.   I am a Microsoft consumer, user, and implementer.  I  am a system builder, a technician, and a student developer as well as the goto guy for tech planning in my prior career.  Prior to that I was a salesman for about 10 years in the retail sector.  I know a lot about marketing and a fair amount about tech.

 

As far as prefering MS solutions and products let me roll out a few.

 

I currently own a Zune 30, Zune 80, Zune 120, Zune 8, and a Zune HD. 

I am currently an Xbox Live Subscriber since 2005.

I have held a Zune Pass Subscription since December of 2006.

I have been a Technet Subscriber since 2007.

I have owned MS routers and network cards.

I own 2 Xbox 360s and an original Xbox, not to mention countless accessories and games.

I have owned 6 Window Mobile Phones.

I own countless Microsoft Keyboards and Mice, including one Trackball.

I currently run Windows Media Center for my DVR and use my Xboxes as Media Center Extenders.

I own a Samsung Q1 UMPC running Origami.

I own a Touchsmart PC in order to test touch and handwriting recognition in Windows 7.

I own a Microsoft Webcam.

I use Microsoft Office as my primary document/calculation/presentation needs.

 

I have deployed Sharepoint Services for a College Campus, insisted and deployed Blackboard on MS Servers with SQL Server 2005 instead of a linux alternative, and have deployed Steady State on hundreds of computers, not to mention planning for deployments of new MS technologies as they are evaluated and become available.

 

When I complain about Microsoft, I usually have a good reason and I tend to back it up.  My career depends on tech, and as such, I have to make decisions that will benefit me in the long run, not Microsoft.  Until now, I have been a loyal customer, but I also have to be realistic.  Realism dictates that companies rise and fall and only blind fanboys and fools won't admit it.  Like I said, I am hedging my bets.

 

 

Fair comment.

cbae said:

For anybody thinking the iPad is going to be a "runaway success" long-term, I suggest that you go to a BestBuy and test-drive its onscreen keyboard. Think beyond the actual learning curve of being able to use the keyboard. Think in terms of the ergonomics. Hell, you don't even need to have the iPad in front of you to experience what it's like. You can do this on your own keyboard. Try typing anything longer than "LOL", "ROFL", or "pwn3d!" while hovering your hands over your keyboard making sure that absolutely none of your fingers are resting on the surface of any of the keys in the process. There are going to be plenty of apologists for the sheer crappiness of this experience, but deep down inside they're going want a physical keyboard.

What you say about the keyboard is true. But what is also true is that they shifted about half a million in the first weekend of sales, which by any standard is a runaway success.

cbae said:

This thread sounds like it's coming from an Apple fanboi site. RLO claims to "prefer MS products and solution" yet wants to "hedge his bets" because MS supposedly cancels or delays projects all the time. Yet, in another post in the same thread he praises HP for cancelling the Slate running Windows 7 in favor of some speculative WebOS device? That's funny because, as far as we know beyond rumors, the Courier didn't get beyond the conceptual stage, whereas the HP Slate was sitting in Ballmer's grubby hands in a non-imagined embodiment at CES.

Well, HP's decision makes a lot of sense. They want a fast, light device that can run all day on a single charge and has a UI optimised for touch input. Even with the extra work HP put in, that wasn't Windows7

That said, there are some cool, practical interface ideas shown that I hope we see in the near future.

Ray7 said:

RLO said:

*snip*

 

It's fascinating to watch isn't it? In a few years Apple will probably release an ARM-based laptop with a fifteen hour battery life and shell so thin it's almost impossible to use, but does double as a handy throwing weapon.

"At the end of the day, this is Microsoft we are talking about.  Honestly, what do you think their chances of success would be? Here's a prediction for the Kin. It will go on sale, pick up a small handful of users and then will be quietly dropped in about two years time."

Kin is not being promoted as a platform for third-party development, so I'm sure that's what's intended from the start.  It's an experiment and the features that are deemed successful will be folded into Windows Phone, just like Zune's were.  Courier would have been the same way.

CreamFilling512 said:

Looking back at the Courier videos, I can totally understand why it got cancelled.  It's not consistent with MS strategy at all, it's not broad enough.

If that were true, then Microsoft Surface would have never left the labs. If the market for the Courier is small, then I think you may find the market for a fifteen grand table is even smaller.

contextfree said:

Ray7 said:

*snip*

"At the end of the day, this is Microsoft we are talking about.  Honestly, what do you think their chances of success would be? Here's a prediction for the Kin. It will go on sale, pick up a small handful of users and then will be quietly dropped in about two years time."

 

Kin is not being promoted as a platform for third-party development, so I'm sure that's what's intended from the start.  It's an experiment and the features that are deemed successful will be folded into Windows Phone, just like Zune's were.  Courier would have been the same way.

Kin is not really being promoted for anything which is why it's pretty much still-born.

And your comment was pretty much the standard line MS has been using for all its failed projects. 

Ray7 said:

contextfree said:

*snip*

Kin is not really being promoted for anything which is why it's pretty much still-born.

 

And your comment was pretty much the standard line MS has been using for all its failed projects. 

My point is that Kin has always been by design a narrowly focused product, so I don't see what the point you're making even is.  The question isn't whether Kin takes over the world, it's whether Windows Phone is ultimately successful.

contextfree said:

Ray7 said:

*snip*

My point is that Kin has always been by design a narrowly focused product, so I don't see what the point you're making even is.  The question isn't whether Kin takes over the world, it's whether Windows Phone is ultimately successful.

The point is that rather than trying stuff that won't do very well, MS is better off sticking to what it knows (which is what it appears to be doing). 

Windows Phone? Not so sure it will make much impact in the face of so much focussed competition. 

Ray7 said:

CreamFilling512 said:

*snip*

 

If that were true, then Microsoft Surface would have never left the labs. If the market for the Courier is small, then I think you may find the market for a fifteen grand table is even smaller.

 

 

No, Surface makes more sense, it's a platform, customers build the apps for it.

CreamFilling512 said:

This is the best write-up I've seen on Courier post-mortem: http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/04/courier-no-more-not-that-it-ever-was-a-post-mortem.ars

And Gates has something to say about it too.