Expression Studio 4 Ultimate, so... expensive! >:( why is it bundled?

<rant>

gaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh..... Expression Studio 4 Ultimate, so... EXPENSIVE! >... it's almost $1000 where I live!!! So, what made Windows great is the applications and good development environments provided by Microsoft ( and Borland )... now they are forcing us to cough up $1000 for that thing?

...and there is NO OPTION to buy the Blend 4 as a separate download... WTF? ...what exactly is going on, they make all this fancy pancy great WPF and Silverlight stuff... and hmm... no tools to use this?

This is pure con job imho to not offer Blend 4 as a separate buy just to milk as much cash as possible... when they are FULLY AWARE that as devs, we don't care about the rest of the package and it's Blend 4 we NEED.

Good luck doing nice looking stuff without Blend!

Already annoyed by the fact that I need a separate tool for designing my app now...WHY T. F. can't I buy this separately and cheaper?

I don't want the other crap bundled with this thing!

...and I'm also an Action Pack subscriber and still can't get Blend 4... how much time and effort do you ( Microsoft ) really think I as a developer am willing to put to get my hand on Blend 4? I mean, really, seriously... you think I'll pay $1000 for it? O RLY?

I can even put that cost on my customers or work... but you can dream on! It is not going to happen.

"I" as a developer will NOT do any fancy pancy nice Windows applications unless YOU ( Microsoft ) make it EASY... VERY EASY... VERY VERY F****ing EASY FOR ME TO GET MY HANDS ON BLEND 4.

Until then... Hello regular plain old apps!

You might lol... you might say "too bad for you" to me... but tell that to the business department of MS and come back to me what they think of this, when a dev gets this annoyed with the way you provide your tools and platforms.

</rant>

This blend thing has been out for soon version 4... and we haven't really seen much nice apps... WHY EXACTLY YOU THINK THAT IS?... TROUBLE CONNECTING THE DOTS?

Make it a separate buyable option, not $1000... but I dunno, $150-200... I would buy it. No problem there.

Could you knock it off with the caps in subject lines? It's driving me crazy.

Apart from that, yeah, there needs to be a cheaper option for Blend. I'd prefer Blend Express or something, but just being able to buy Blend standalone for $100-$200 would be fine too.

Until then, it's editing stuff in Visual Studio. Which is a pain, but not impossible.

Bas said:

Could you knock it off with the caps in subject lines? It's driving me crazy.

 

Apart from that, yeah, there needs to be a cheaper option for Blend. I'd prefer Blend Express or something, but just being able to buy Blend standalone for $100-$200 would be fine too.

 

Until then, it's editing stuff in Visual Studio. Which is a pain, but not impossible.

An open-source Blend clone would be a nice project (not for me to write though )

Bas said:

Could you knock it off with the caps in subject lines? It's driving me crazy.

 

Apart from that, yeah, there needs to be a cheaper option for Blend. I'd prefer Blend Express or something, but just being able to buy Blend standalone for $100-$200 would be fine too.

 

Until then, it's editing stuff in Visual Studio. Which is a pain, but not impossible.

Sorry, I fixed the capslocks. *was angry*

turrican said:

Bas said:

*snip*

Sorry, I fixed the capslocks. *was angry*

There are Expression 4 Studio Ultimate, Premium and Professional editions (they are available right now on MSDN). I assume they'll release pricing for these other editions at launch.

Edit: Professional is actually Web Professional. Premium looks like it provides the same tools as Ultimate, so there must be something different that I haven't been able to find out yet.

...or just ditch the Microsoft WPF/Silverlight platform and enjoy Adobe/Macromedia like the rest of us have been doing since 1993.

W3bbo said:

...or just ditch the Microsoft WPF/Silverlight platform and enjoy Adobe/Macromedia like the rest of us have been doing since 1993.

Sorry, using crap tools is no excuse for... well, anything.

Blend >>>> Flash/FLEX.

W3bbo said:

...or just ditch the Microsoft WPF/Silverlight platform and enjoy Adobe/Macromedia like the rest of us have been doing since 1993.

I tried, but the UI of the tools all had the wrong shade of grey.

Buy the Upgrade version.

Become a student again.

W3bbo said:

...or just ditch the Microsoft WPF/Silverlight platform and enjoy Adobe/Macromedia like the rest of us have been doing since 1993.

I don't want to seem as if I am needlessly going against your opinion, because you are entitled - of course - to your own opinion, but Silverlight really is the best thing since sliced bread for a lot of reasons. I have just worked on a project that used WPF because SL4 was not out, and I needed access to the file system, but it is out now, and it offers a lot of flexibility.

I know you are dead set against the tech, but if you go into meetings with investors or IT heads of departments or people in charge of the pennies, then Silverlight makes an overwhelming case.

There have been early adopters, but by the time Silverlight 5 comes out people with significant investment in .NET will all realise just what a complete end-to-end package it is.

The BBC have done very well with Adobe AIR in their iPlayer, truth be known, I love it, but the platform lacks the typical web services and overall .NET infrastructure that WCF and Silverlight add, plus the fact that you can target WPF, Silverlight and Windows Phone 7 with the same set of skills.

A lot of employers are waking up to the fact that their workforce would like better interaction with their occupation via their phone,  and Silverlight makes for a compelling platform, because the same SLOOB can be ported to the phone. That seals the deal for a lot of employers, and the support for embedded devices like kiosk machines, TV's and bespoke hardware only increases the attractiveness of the technology. the world of work/employment is changing, with more people working from home for example in a government department or council, so employers are keen to embrace technology that allows them control, without their workforce necessarily being there for the most part.

You certainly have point in promulgating both the effectiveness and attractiveness of offerings from competitors, I agree, it is lovely software, it's just that in the less niche and niche spaces Silverlight now offers fantastic value of money and ROI.

PaoloM said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

Sorry, using crap tools is no excuse for... well, anything.

 

Blend >>>> Flash/FLEX.

Agreed, as someone who has done and still does a lot of adobe dev, flash/flex/air/whatever the fk next is really bad in comparison to silverlight.

vesuvius said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

I don't want to seem as if I am needlessly going against your opinion, because you are entitled - of course - to your own opinion, but Silverlight really is the best thing since sliced bread for a lot of reasons. I have just worked on a project that used WPF because SL4 was not out, and I needed access to the file system, but it is out now, and it offers a lot of flexibility.

 

I know you are dead set against the tech, but if you go into meetings with investors or IT heads of departments or people in charge of the pennies, then Silverlight makes an overwhelming case.

 

There have been early adopters, but by the time Silverlight 5 comes out people with significant investment in .NET will all realise just what a complete end-to-end package it is.

 

The BBC have done very well with Adobe AIR in their iPlayer, truth be known, I love it, but the platform lacks the typical web services and overall .NET infrastructure that WCF and Silverlight add, plus the fact that you can target WPF, Silverlight and Windows Phone 7 with the same set of skills.

 

A lot of employers are waking up to the fact that their workforce would like better interaction with their occupation via their phone,  and Silverlight makes for a compelling platform, because the same SLOOB can be ported to the phone. That seals the deal for a lot of employers, and the support for embedded devices like kiosk machines, TV's and bespoke hardware only increases the attractiveness of the technology. the world of work/employment is changing, with more people working from home for example in a government department or council, so employers are keen to embrace technology that allows them control, without their workforce necessarily being there for the most part.

 

You certainly have point in promulgating both the effectiveness and attractiveness of offerings from competitors, I agree, it is lovely software, it's just that in the less niche and niche spaces Silverlight now offers fantastic value of money and ROI.

I'm not sure what you are getting at, there are tons and tons of developers using Flash for perfectly valid technological and business reasons.

Bass said:

vesuvius said:

*snip*

I'm not sure what you are getting at, there are tons and tons of developers using Flash for perfectly valid technological and business reasons.

I don't disagree that Flash/AIR isn't a good platform for developers, but nothing beats the Flash platform when it comes to designer-friendliness, and it's all about the company you keep:

Take a look at any Silverlight 'gallery' and you'll see that the results all tend to be on the ugly (or at least less-than-aesthetic) side, I've said before that Microsoft has failed in the marketing for the Expression line of products (which is not helped by the lack of a Photoshop competitor or any kind of raster graphics editor), they seem more at pushing Expression towards mythical companies that have both a design and development departments. I'd wager very few companies work like that.

W3bbo said:

Bass said:

*snip*

I don't disagree that Flash/AIR isn't a good platform for developers, but nothing beats the Flash platform when it comes to designer-friendliness, and it's all about the company you keep:

 

Take a look at any Silverlight 'gallery' and you'll see that the results all tend to be on the ugly (or at least less-than-aesthetic) side, I've said before that Microsoft has failed in the marketing for the Expression line of products (which is not helped by the lack of a Photoshop competitor or any kind of raster graphics editor), they seem more at pushing Expression towards mythical companies that have both a design and development departments. I'd wager very few companies work like that.

Wizards of the Coast says hi.

We used to be a full on Mac shop, until we decided to start producing software in house. 100% of the designers here are extremely comfortable with Flash and yet, once we have to deliver complex products, we jumped very quickly first to WPF/Blend and now to Silverlight/Blend, using Illustrator as the main vector drawing program.

There was exactly ZERO possibility to ship what we're shipping in Flash/FLEX, in time and on budget, even counting the necessary training on Blend. Trust me, I checked

W3bbo said:

Bass said:

*snip*

I don't disagree that Flash/AIR isn't a good platform for developers, but nothing beats the Flash platform when it comes to designer-friendliness, and it's all about the company you keep:

 

Take a look at any Silverlight 'gallery' and you'll see that the results all tend to be on the ugly (or at least less-than-aesthetic) side, I've said before that Microsoft has failed in the marketing for the Expression line of products (which is not helped by the lack of a Photoshop competitor or any kind of raster graphics editor), they seem more at pushing Expression towards mythical companies that have both a design and development departments. I'd wager very few companies work like that.

I disagree that Flash is good for me, because "I don't script"...

But I fully agree with this part of your argument. Not only Microsoft has failed in the marketing for the Expression line, they make it very expensive and inaccessible to developers like me.

Beside those mythical companies that have both design AND development departments... ( which is so true, spot on *lol*... I have seen only ONE in the past 17 years. )... this whole Blend tool has started to feel mythical to myself because it's so so so so so so so so very hard to get my hands on this thing. ( I tried the webspark thingy but I dropped out of it and uninstalled Blend 3 because I found it insulting. ) ...and to Microsoft, as stated earlier, I just will NOT spend $1000 on it. There will be no discussion, no sales meetings, no nothing. This is not a soft no, not a maybe... it's a no in the real sense.

I edited the count and removed this from my post earlier to not narrow down too much what I do... BUT... what I make reaches out to many MANY small businesses. 90% of them don't even know what Silverlight is! That's because "I" haven't pushed it out to them. ...and I will not until I can buy Blend as a separate product. :]... or atleast in the Action Pack or something NOT insulting.

I am a businessman and I know businesses need to earn money etc. so I don't mind paying for stuff, I don't expect free stuff... but frankly, in 2010... this kind of bundling is just really insulting to me to milk out this much cash. Well, to be totally frank, the cash isn't even THAT much, but the bundling is insulting.

Funny thing is, I bet there are not really THAT many who even bought the "ultimate" suite. If you count that small loss as marketing, imagine what greater influence could Blend do when people like me ( yes, I'm cheap but I also dislike being insulted. ) would get our hands on this thing.

It wouldn't even be a loss really to SELL it separately. Just for less. I don't expect free, I expect accessible in terms of $$$.

turrican said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

I disagree that Flash is good for me, because "I don't script"...

 

But I fully agree with this part of your argument. Not only Microsoft has failed in the marketing for the Expression line, they make it very expensive and inaccessible to developers like me.

 

Beside those mythical companies that have both design AND development departments... ( which is so true, spot on *lol*... I have seen only ONE in the past 17 years. )... this whole Blend tool has started to feel mythical to myself because it's so so so so so so so so very hard to get my hands on this thing. ( I tried the webspark thingy but I dropped out of it and uninstalled Blend 3 because I found it insulting. ) ...and to Microsoft, as stated earlier, I just will NOT spend $1000 on it. There will be no discussion, no sales meetings, no nothing. This is not a soft no, not a maybe... it's a no in the real sense.

 

I edited the count and removed this from my post earlier to not narrow down too much what I do... BUT... what I make reaches out to many MANY small businesses. 90% of them don't even know what Silverlight is! That's because "I" haven't pushed it out to them. ...and I will not until I can buy Blend as a separate product. :]... or atleast in the Action Pack or something NOT insulting.

 

I am a businessman and I know businesses need to earn money etc. so I don't mind paying for stuff, I don't expect free stuff... but frankly, in 2010... this kind of bundling is just really insulting to me to milk out this much cash. Well, to be totally frank, the cash isn't even THAT much, but the bundling is insulting.

 

Funny thing is, I bet there are not really THAT many who even bought the "ultimate" suite. If you count that small loss as marketing, imagine what greater influence could Blend do when people like me ( yes, I'm cheap but I also dislike being insulted. ) would get our hands on this thing.

 

It wouldn't even be a loss really to SELL it separately. Just for less. I don't expect free, I expect accessible in terms of $$$.

Whatever ... so the $100 web site spark program is an insult but forking out $1,000 is to rich?

so have to priced out Flash Pro recently ? it's not really cheap by a long shot....

so you want to have tools that sell for at least $1,000 to any developer for cheap and you also don't wan the deal they offer and you ...

seem to live in a special world that we only dream of entering....  La La La ....

SOrry man but deal with it.  Pony up the bucks and pay for it or move on... or take the deals and use them to make the bucks....

figuerres said:

turrican said:

*snip*

Whatever ... so the $100 web site spark program is an insult but forking out $1,000 is to rich?

so have to priced out Flash Pro recently ? it's not really cheap by a long shot....

so you want to have tools that sell for at least $1,000 to any developer for cheap and you also don't wan the deal they offer and you ...

seem to live in a special world that we only dream of entering....  La La La ....

 

SOrry man but deal with it.  Pony up the bucks and pay for it or move on... or take the deals and use them to make the bucks....

 

$100 at webspark isn't the insult... the producing a project with it is an insult.

ps. I never said Flash / Adobe is good at all. They are even worst.