• The WPF-based UI is slow and laggy in parts, for example when opening menus for the first time.
• I can't seem to get it to indent lines when I create new ones, like every version of VS has done until 2010, and it's very annoying to be doing ballroom dancing with my fingers on my keyboard to find the caret reverted to column 1 and having to then manually indent. It gets extremely irritating and a massive hinderance to my productivity.
• The documentation system, there really is no excuse for this. H3Viewer isn't any help because it takes up to 5 times as long to do something as MSDN2008. Never mind the lack of filtering options.
• When developing against .NET2.0 the autocomplete window lists options for .NET4.0.
• And the intellisense window isn't resizable either. I get claustrophic.
• It's impossible to radically reorganise the toolbars: you can't move a menu item from one sub-menu to another sub-menu, only top-level editing is allowed, and you can't change button icons either. Which means I can't have my preferred menu and toolbar layout I've had since VS2003.
• I can't get IE8 Script Debugging to work at all, I get cryptic errors about DLLs not being registered and having to re-install VS2010. IE debugging has always "just worked" in VS2008.

The only benefit I've had with VS2010 is the ability to arbitrarily move document windows about, but this is on my laptop where there isn't any space to drag them to.

Also, as my laptop is the only machine with VS2010 it means I need to maintain separate *.sln and *.proj files for both VS2010 and VS2008.

I'm sticking with 2008.

What's everyone else's experiences?

i do see a few times where the screen needed to redraw and if i re-size the app it snaps up the right update, like opening a code or design window on some occasions it does not show the new edit window.

the help / doc engine yeah that one i *TOTALLY HATE* what they did, to me it was a HUGE step in the wrong direction. IMHO they should just say "For Help open a GOOGLE and search there ...." that's what i think of the new help system.

script debug - i have never really used VS to try and debug any JS so i have no feedback there.

Multi-Targeting I have not seen any issues with .net 2.xx 3.xx and 4.xx i have several apps that are in each version and for me this works fine.

I do not like the following:

1) lack of support for my Vs 2008 smart device projects.

2) SQL RS Editing - why not have the ability to edit a RS 2005 report and an RS 2008 report with VS 2010

if they fixed the two missing items I could uninstall VS 2005 and VS 2008 of all the machines i use!

so over all for me the new Support for SIlverlight and WPF and the ability to work on 2.0 and 3.5 and 4.0 apps

plus a lot of other stuff they have done make it a no-brainer to keep 2010

I just put  out a V1.0 of a new app for a customer in WPF and they love how it looks and works, they have already requested a new version with more features.

I see over the next year the start of a shift away from WinForms appps to a mix of WPF and SIlverlight for our core clients.

I am starting to track how many desktops have what version of .net and planning how i can get 4.0 on them w/o a big manpower issue.

they do not have an AD system if they did i would setup an auto update process.

ManipUni said:

The new XML/XSL debugging in 2010 makes it a very good upgrade for me. Although it has a VERY long way to go it is still one of the best XML/XSL development enviroments on the market (*which just goes to show how horrible that market really is).

I'm doing Silverlight and a little XNA development at the moment and use 2010 with Blend almost exclusively.  I still have 2008 installed but have not had any reason to fire it up recently (that might change if I had to update some of my old projects - I still have some stuff in 2.0).  On the whole I have personally found 2010 to be a pretty good upgrade though I will be keeping 2008 aroound for a while, ' just in case' .    First impressions of HELP were not good but I tend to use Google/Bing for help nowadays anyway.

1. Multi-touch support in .NET 4.0
2. Improved text rendering
3. WCF Routing/Protocol Bridging services
4. UML diagramming and additional debugging support
5. Parallel libraries - my image processing application works much faster on multi-core machines (4 cores = 1/4 of the time in some cases)
6. Client profile means I dont have to install .NET 2.0, 3.0, .3.5 and 4.0 on new netbooks or laptops

It would add several months programming were I to regress, but most of the application would have been done in silverlight 4.0 had that been available several months go, so a VS regression is simply not an option.

I tend to rely more on a few good books than the help system, and the VS 2010 training material is pretty good, so the new help is not a deal breaker for me.

If your project does not necessitate an upgrade to visual studio 2010 and you can use VS 2008, then stay with it, its less hassle and cheaper. I have always thought visual studio a bit wasteful in discarding it every 24 months.

figuerres said:

on start up i see a small delay in the UI the first time i load 2010 and after that i do not see a problem with ui speed.

i do see a few times where the screen needed to redraw and if i re-size the app it snaps up the right update, like opening a code or design window on some occasions it does not show the new edit window.

 

the help / doc engine yeah that one i *TOTALLY HATE* what they did, to me it was a HUGE step in the wrong direction. IMHO they should just say "For Help open a GOOGLE and search there ...." that's what i think of the new help system.

 

script debug - i have never really used VS to try and debug any JS so i have no feedback there.

 

Multi-Targeting I have not seen any issues with .net 2.xx 3.xx and 4.xx i have several apps that are in each version and for me this works fine.

 

I do not like the following:

1) lack of support for my Vs 2008 smart device projects.

2) SQL RS Editing - why not have the ability to edit a RS 2005 report and an RS 2008 report with VS 2010

 

if they fixed the two missing items I could uninstall VS 2005 and VS 2008 of all the machines i use!

 

 

so over all for me the new Support for SIlverlight and WPF and the ability to work on 2.0 and 3.5 and 4.0 apps

plus a lot of other stuff they have done make it a no-brainer to keep 2010

 

I just put  out a V1.0 of a new app for a customer in WPF and they love how it looks and works, they have already requested a new version with more features.

 

I see over the next year the start of a shift away from WinForms appps to a mix of WPF and SIlverlight for our core clients.

 

I am starting to track how many desktops have what version of .net and planning how i can get 4.0 on them w/o a big manpower issue.

they do not have an AD system if they did i would setup an auto update process.

 

the help / doc engine yeah that one i *TOTALLY HATE* what they did, to me it was a HUGE step in the wrong direction. IMHO they should just say "For Help open a GOOGLE and search there ...." that's what i think of the new help system.

Truer words have never been written. Whoever thought the new help system was an improvement seriously needs to ... well, to be polite, I will suggest that they re-evaluate what they've done there and make an attempt at providing developers with something that's actually useful. Because what they have is a mess. Full stop.

You know, in thinking about it, help in all of its various forms (for developers and end-users) is one of the things that has actually gotten profoundly worse with newer and newer versions of Windows and other Microsoft products (I'm talking about you, Office). It boggles the mind.

mstefan said:

figuerres said:

*snip*

the help / doc engine yeah that one i *TOTALLY HATE* what they did, to me it was a HUGE step in the wrong direction. IMHO they should just say "For Help open a GOOGLE and search there ...." that's what i think of the new help system.

 

Truer words have never been written. Whoever thought the new help system was an improvement seriously needs to ... well, to be polite, I will suggest that they re-evaluate what they've done there and make an attempt at providing developers with something that's actually useful. Because what they have is a mess. Full stop.

 

You know, in thinking about it, help in all of its various forms (for developers and end-users) is one of the things that has actually gotten profoundly worse with newer and newer versions of Windows and other Microsoft products (I'm talking about you, Office). It boggles the mind.

I will say this for the help system: their goal was to make F1 more useful and they did achieve that. Now when you press F1, 90% of the time it gets you the right topic (as opposed to close to 0% of the time in VS2008).

It's too bad everything else got worse about it. I've got the help viewer extension installed (I don't like H3Viewer personally) and it's manageable with that, but it's not ideal for sure.

2008 cold start 2 sec, warm start <0.5 sec

2010 cold start 14 sec (after full day of using computer with several hour long idle period, SuperFetch .. more like SuperFail), warm start 4 sec.

I wrote two rants about SuperFetch in 7 here but removed them after figuring you've heard them from me before.

If this site weren't purely about random hype vids these days I'd ask for a Going Deep on what went wrong in SuperFetch and what are they going to do about it while it's still somehow relevant. I don't think it's going to be relevant for long after everyone has large SSD but I find it hard to believe majority of Win7 is running on SSD systems so the timing of making it useless in 7 is really annoying.

edit: removed some comments about what RamMap shows after days use. It almost looks as if videos I'm copying with robocopy from net share are being cached (rather than something useful like those apps that take age to load) but not quite certain if I interpret it correctly.

Clint said:

Are you sure you're on the RTM version?  I did a test WPF project and it never pulled up a .Net 4.0 only item.  I used the System.Threading.Task lib on a 4.0 project, then downgraded it to 3.5.  Soon as I downgraded, it failed to compile.

 

Parallel

 

I know beta 2 had some speed issues but on RC and RTM, on any machine I put it on, it works rather nicely.  Do you have any third party extentions installed?

.For(0, 10, (i) => { Title = i.ToString(); });

I take back what I said about VS2010 showing .NET4.0-specific entries in a 2.0 project, I was just looking at the intellisense list and noticed some things I never noticed before (namely Array.LongLength).

I've no issues with VS2010 performance in general, but it's just the "little things" in the UI lag that get to me, such as when you open the menus for the first time in a session, subsequent openings are as fast as I'd expect them, but there's still a noticable delay for the first time.

But yeah, so far the main pain is the lack of actual line indenting. I'll gladly pay someone £50 to write an extension that fixes this.

androidi said:

random stats:

 

2008 cold start 2 sec, warm start <0.5 sec

2010 cold start 14 sec (after full day of using computer with several hour long idle period, SuperFetch .. more like SuperFail), warm start 4 sec.

 

I wrote two rants about SuperFetch in 7 here but removed them after figuring you've heard them from me before.

If this site weren't purely about random hype vids these days I'd ask for a Going Deep on what went wrong in SuperFetch and what are they going to do about it while it's still somehow relevant. I don't think it's going to be relevant for long after everyone has large SSD but I find it hard to believe majority of Win7 is running on SSD systems so the timing of making it useless in 7 is really annoying.

 

edit: removed some comments about what RamMap shows after days use. It almost looks as if videos I'm copying with robocopy from net share are being cached (rather than something useful like those apps that take age to load) but not quite certain if I interpret it correctly.

VS 2010:  With resharper enabled, it is a bit slow (14 seconds on a 10,000rpm raptor), but with it disabled, I'm getting a 2.5 second startup.

VS2008 start up mimics the same speeds as 2010

ReSharper for me is what causes VS to start up slow, and I'm cool with that since ReSharper lets me code faster.

W3bbo said:

Clint said:

*snip*

I take back what I said about VS2010 showing .NET4.0-specific entries in a 2.0 project, I was just looking at the intellisense list and noticed some things I never noticed before (namely Array.LongLength).

 

I've no issues with VS2010 performance in general, but it's just the "little things" in the UI lag that get to me, such as when you open the menus for the first time in a session, subsequent openings are as fast as I'd expect them, but there's still a noticable delay for the first time.

 

But yeah, so far the main pain is the lack of actual line indenting. I'll gladly pay someone £50 to write an extension that fixes this.

<quote>

      But yeah, so far the main pain is the lack of actual line indenting.

</quote>

What do you mean by this?  It acts just like VS 2008.

androidi said:

random stats:

 

2008 cold start 2 sec, warm start <0.5 sec

2010 cold start 14 sec (after full day of using computer with several hour long idle period, SuperFetch .. more like SuperFail), warm start 4 sec.

 

I wrote two rants about SuperFetch in 7 here but removed them after figuring you've heard them from me before.

If this site weren't purely about random hype vids these days I'd ask for a Going Deep on what went wrong in SuperFetch and what are they going to do about it while it's still somehow relevant. I don't think it's going to be relevant for long after everyone has large SSD but I find it hard to believe majority of Win7 is running on SSD systems so the timing of making it useless in 7 is really annoying.

 

edit: removed some comments about what RamMap shows after days use. It almost looks as if videos I'm copying with robocopy from net share are being cached (rather than something useful like those apps that take age to load) but not quite certain if I interpret it correctly.

VS2010 seems a bit slower to start for me, but after that almost everything is faster.

VS2008 hands down. Sorry dudes.

Steve411 said:

I bought VS2010. But I'm not using it.

 

VS2008 hands down. Sorry dudes.

I love the new threading toys I get with .NET 4.0 far too much.  And Windows Phone 7, and SL4, ...

What is causing you not to use VS2010?

I think it must be the blue background and WPF-ness that sold me... as I’m prepared to forgive the longer start-up time, and even the fact that I can’t read the text on many of the dialogs is not enough to turn me off... and the useless help... well... VS help has always been useless, so no change there... I’ve long since learned not to waste my time with it, and just use Google.

As far as indenting is concerned, I don’t see a problem, and I find it’s actually a bit smarter than VS2008 for some things, and at least, seems no dumber.

Damn-it, it’s all shiny and stuff... so now I have to find the money for it... as the Express edition just doesn’t cut it for me.

I suspect this must be how Apple users feel... and I'm ashamed of myself for wanting it... but I do... and I don't *REALLY* need food...

elmer said:

I downloaded the free trial of VS2010 Pro, and I *REALLY* wanted to find a good reason to hate it, or at least not enough to justify paying for the upgrade from my VS2008-Pro, but unfortunately... I’m hooked.

 

I think it must be the blue background and WPF-ness that sold me... as I’m prepared to forgive the longer start-up time, and even the fact that I can’t read the text on many of the dialogs is not enough to turn me off... and the useless help... well... VS help has always been useless, so no change there... I’ve long since learned not to waste my time with it, and just use Google.

 

As far as indenting is concerned, I don’t see a problem, and I find it’s actually a bit smarter than VS2008 for some things, and at least, seems no dumber.

 

Damn-it, it’s all shiny and stuff... so now I have to find the money for it... as the Express edition just doesn’t cut it for me.

 

I suspect this must be how Apple users feel... and I'm ashamed of myself for wanting it... but I do... and I don't *REALLY* need food...

I got to agree, this is a video for those that still aesthetically like visual studio 2008

vesuvius said:

elmer said:

*snip*

I got to agree, this is a video for those that still aesthetically like visual studio 2008

 

There is a pattern here though, isn't there?

1. Microsoft releases new version of product a niner uses

2. Niner notices something which to most people is a relatively minor difference that they soon get used to.

3. Niner  builds said change up into a major reason not to use new version.

4. Niner  comes to C9 to complain bitterly that Microsoft has ruined new product and made it 'unuseable'.

Herbie

EDIT : Removed reference to specific person when I realised they were not the one making the complaint I was thinking of from previous product! 

Dr Herbie said:

vesuvius said:

*snip*

There is a pattern here though, isn't there?

 

1. Microsoft releases new version of product a niner uses

2. Niner notices something which to most people is a relatively minor difference that they soon get used to.

3. Niner  builds said change up into a major reason not to use new version.

4. Niner  comes to C9 to complain bitterly that Microsoft has ruined new product and made it 'unuseable'.

 

 

Herbie

 

 

EDIT : Removed reference to specific person when I realised they were not the one making the complaint I was thinking of from previous product! 

 

 

Dr. I think it's part of the "illness" of all of us who come here...

just like the bashing of the c9 bugs and page loads....

we cry about it but we keep coming back to cry some more....

figuerres said:

Dr Herbie said:

*snip*

Dr. I think it's part of the "illness" of all of us who come here...

just like the bashing of the c9 bugs and page loads....

we cry about it but we keep coming back to cry some more....

I wonder how many of these complaining Niners have the same thing for lunch every day.

"Gaa! The potatoes are touching the peas!"

"I don't like gravy, it's too disorganised."

Herbie

Dr Herbie said:

figuerres said:

*snip*

I wonder how many of these complaining Niners have the same thing for lunch every day.

"Gaa! The potatoes are touching the peas!"

"I don't like gravy, it's too disorganised."

 

Herbie

 

"I prefer my potatoes in battleship gray."

Dr Herbie said:

vesuvius said:

*snip*

There is a pattern here though, isn't there?

 

1. Microsoft releases new version of product a niner uses

2. Niner notices something which to most people is a relatively minor difference that they soon get used to.

3. Niner  builds said change up into a major reason not to use new version.

4. Niner  comes to C9 to complain bitterly that Microsoft has ruined new product and made it 'unuseable'.

 

 

Herbie

 

 

EDIT : Removed reference to specific person when I realised they were not the one making the complaint I was thinking of from previous product! 

 

 

Right! I know, Forums like C9 are usually frequented by power users or at the very least people with over the average knowledge about computer but most of the times when I read complains or rants, the image that comes to my mind are people with the computer proficiency of cranky 90 year old grandpa that can't even handle changes as "drastic" as buttons in a different position.

raptor3676 said:

Dr Herbie said:

*snip*

Right! I know, Forums like C9 are usually frequented by power users or at the very least people with over the average knowledge about computer but most of the times when I read complains or rants, the image that comes to my mind are people with the computer proficiency of cranky 90 year old grandpa that can't even handle changes as "drastic" as buttons in a different position.

 

 

Everyone should go and test here before they complain about software changes

(I got a score of 20, slap bang between average scientist and average computer scientist -- which is about right given that I trained in biology and then went into computers!).

Herbie

Dr Herbie said:

figuerres said:

*snip*

I wonder how many of these complaining Niners have the same thing for lunch every day.

"Gaa! The potatoes are touching the peas!"

"I don't like gravy, it's too disorganised."

 

Herbie

 

ever take a look at the forums for the game world of warcraft ?  some very simmilar traits there also...

anything that they (Blizzard) chnage in that game will get a flood of complaints from some part of the community...

like 5 milliion players who wish they had control of the game and do what is called "QQ" all the time....

QQ - think big eyes with tears

Dr Herbie said:

raptor3676 said:

*snip*

Everyone should go and test here before they complain about software changes

 

(I got a score of 20, slap bang between average scientist and average computer scientist -- which is about right given that I trained in biology and then went into computers!).

 

Herbie

 

Apparently, I'm an "average female scientist".

... huh!?

Sven Groot said:

Dr Herbie said:

*snip*

Apparently, I'm an "average female scientist".

 

... huh!?

Ha, ha!  Sven has empathy!  Lets all make fun of him until he cries!

Herbie

(feeling unaccountably childish today)

Dr Herbie said:

raptor3676 said:

*snip*

Everyone should go and test here before they complain about software changes

 

(I got a score of 20, slap bang between average scientist and average computer scientist -- which is about right given that I trained in biology and then went into computers!).

 

Herbie

 

That test is interesting, because despite me having a formal diagnosis for AS, I completed that test with a score of 18 - Average Male.

Some of the questions are a bit ambigiuous and open to interpretation: "I prefer to do things by my own"  - I certainly enjoy social activities in groups of 4 to 7 people, but I prefer to work alone and I feel that distinction is important. However, going deeper, one reason I prefer working alone is because I'm not always confident of the other team member's competence (this past academic year we had a team-based module where we had to make a game together, 2 members of the team skived off entirely, and another had glaring deficiencies in his work. I'm willing to give teamwork a try, but only if the team is good to begin with).

Other questions about being impolite, for example, are only indicative of AS if that person hasn't learned and developed social skills. I know a couple other people with formal AS diagnoses who are much better socially than "normal" people otherwise: by focusing on improving sociability you can often end up better than someone who didn't; it's like judging if someone is dyslexic by asking them to complete a written essay and checking it for signature dyslexic errors, without considering the substantial portion of dyslexic people who carefully think before writing anything down and correcting themselves afterwards, thus making them come across as perfect writers and much better than a non-dyslexic person.

Dr Herbie said:

raptor3676 said:

*snip*

Everyone should go and test here before they complain about software changes

 

(I got a score of 20, slap bang between average scientist and average computer scientist -- which is about right given that I trained in biology and then went into computers!).

 

Herbie

 

19 - Average male scientist, and average male or female physicist

Same here, I worked much with biology and love science.

W3bbo said:

Dr Herbie said:

*snip*

That test is interesting, because despite me having a formal diagnosis for AS, I completed that test with a score of 18 - Average Male.

 

Some of the questions are a bit ambigiuous and open to interpretation: "I prefer to do things by my own"  - I certainly enjoy social activities in groups of 4 to 7 people, but I prefer to work alone and I feel that distinction is important. However, going deeper, one reason I prefer working alone is because I'm not always confident of the other team member's competence (this past academic year we had a team-based module where we had to make a game together, 2 members of the team skived off entirely, and another had glaring deficiencies in his work. I'm willing to give teamwork a try, but only if the team is good to begin with).

 

Other questions about being impolite, for example, are only indicative of AS if that person hasn't learned and developed social skills. I know a couple other people with formal AS diagnoses who are much better socially than "normal" people otherwise: by focusing on improving sociability you can often end up better than someone who didn't; it's like judging if someone is dyslexic by asking them to complete a written essay and checking it for signature dyslexic errors, without considering the substantial portion of dyslexic people who carefully think before writing anything down and correcting themselves afterwards, thus making them come across as perfect writers and much better than a non-dyslexic person.

Wait, so you're saying a multiple choice test on the Internet isn't a 100% accurate way to diagnose Aspergers?

I am shocked! Shocked, I say!

W3bbo said:

Dr Herbie said:

*snip*

That test is interesting, because despite me having a formal diagnosis for AS, I completed that test with a score of 18 - Average Male.

 

Some of the questions are a bit ambigiuous and open to interpretation: "I prefer to do things by my own"  - I certainly enjoy social activities in groups of 4 to 7 people, but I prefer to work alone and I feel that distinction is important. However, going deeper, one reason I prefer working alone is because I'm not always confident of the other team member's competence (this past academic year we had a team-based module where we had to make a game together, 2 members of the team skived off entirely, and another had glaring deficiencies in his work. I'm willing to give teamwork a try, but only if the team is good to begin with).

 

Other questions about being impolite, for example, are only indicative of AS if that person hasn't learned and developed social skills. I know a couple other people with formal AS diagnoses who are much better socially than "normal" people otherwise: by focusing on improving sociability you can often end up better than someone who didn't; it's like judging if someone is dyslexic by asking them to complete a written essay and checking it for signature dyslexic errors, without considering the substantial portion of dyslexic people who carefully think before writing anything down and correcting themselves afterwards, thus making them come across as perfect writers and much better than a non-dyslexic person.

are only indicative of AS if that person hasn't learned and developed social skills.

Social "skills" is a fun phrase. There's a different between social rules and social empathy. Normally you learn the rules by empathy but that connection is lacking in some AS folks. As soon as the rules can be expressed verbally (and often enough) you can learn them and apply them. Is that what most people call social skills though? Probably not, it is more akin to programming a proper response (especially if NLP is involved when learning the rules). Of course when you get dumped into a situation where you don't know the rules at all, well, that's all kinds of comedy.

It's also interesting to see how some of the AS behaviours are also present in ASPD. Isn't modern medicine fun?

Sven Groot said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

Wait, so you're saying a multiple choice test on the Internet isn't a 100% accurate way to diagnose Aspergers?

 

I am shocked! Shocked, I say!

Unbelievable as it might seem, it says so on the website itself.

Which is good... my wife already complains that I have the social skills of a grizzly bear, I would hate to have to come clean about the 32-50 I just scored.

Dr Herbie said:

raptor3676 said:

*snip*

Everyone should go and test here before they complain about software changes

 

(I got a score of 20, slap bang between average scientist and average computer scientist -- which is about right given that I trained in biology and then went into computers!).

 

Herbie

 

I got 25. Probably because I like things being planned in advance and I prefer working by myself (although I'd be glad if my wife would help out in the garden once in a while )

Dr Herbie said:

raptor3676 said:

*snip*

Everyone should go and test here before they complain about software changes

 

(I got a score of 20, slap bang between average scientist and average computer scientist -- which is about right given that I trained in biology and then went into computers!).

 

Herbie

 

I scored the same as my golf handicap ... 30. 

Dr Herbie said:

raptor3676 said:

*snip*

Everyone should go and test here before they complain about software changes

 

(I got a score of 20, slap bang between average scientist and average computer scientist -- which is about right given that I trained in biology and then went into computers!).

 

Herbie

 

43 !

Am I going to die of cancer or something ??

W3bbo said:

Clint said:

*snip*

I take back what I said about VS2010 showing .NET4.0-specific entries in a 2.0 project, I was just looking at the intellisense list and noticed some things I never noticed before (namely Array.LongLength).

 

I've no issues with VS2010 performance in general, but it's just the "little things" in the UI lag that get to me, such as when you open the menus for the first time in a session, subsequent openings are as fast as I'd expect them, but there's still a noticable delay for the first time.

 

But yeah, so far the main pain is the lack of actual line indenting. I'll gladly pay someone £50 to write an extension that fixes this.

I cannot see the indenting issue you mention. Are you sure you don't have None under Tools - Options - Text Editor - C# - Tabs - Indenting?

Ion Todirel said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

I cannot see the indenting issue you mention. Are you sure you don't have None under Tools - Options - Text Editor - C# - Tabs - Indenting?

See this screenshot:

As you can see, lines that don't contain anything don't have any tabs characters in them. VS2003, 5, and 8 all indented new lines as you pressed the Return key, VS2010 doesn't: it only indents the line once you type something on that line. If you press Return again you get \r\n\r\n rather than \r\n\t\t\t\r\n.

When typing code this isn't a huge problem for me because the caret is magically in the right place 90% of the time, but when I move the caret around with my arrow keys it often ends up in Column 1 when it should be in Column 3 (see screenshot, line 98) where it would be if empty lines were indented.

W3bbo said:

Ion Todirel said:

*snip*

See this screenshot:

 

 

As you can see, lines that don't contain anything don't have any tabs characters in them. VS2003, 5, and 8 all indented new lines as you pressed the Return key, VS2010 doesn't: it only indents the line once you type something on that line. If you press Return again you get \r\n\r\n rather than \r\n\t\t\t\r\n.

 

When typing code this isn't a huge problem for me because the caret is magically in the right place 90% of the time, but when I move the caret around with my arrow keys it often ends up in Column 1 when it should be in Column 3 (see screenshot, line 98) where it would be if empty lines were indented.

 

 

Apparently:  By Design, Won't Fix.

https://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/559293/block-tab-indents-broken

elmer said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

Apparently:  By Design, Won't Fix.

 

https://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/559293/block-tab-indents-broken

"Wont Fix" issues are the most annoying and frustrating to me: people have genuine issues with the software and dutifully report them, only to be told, with a smile, "No"; it reminds me too much of those unhelpful receptionists who decline any request without giving further information.

I'd certainly be a lot happier with the situation if they explained why they made that design choice; I certainly can't see any possible benefit, and if they're going to change something like this why not make it an option?

I don't know the VS extension API well enough, but might it be possible to write an extension to fix this?

W3bbo said:

elmer said:

*snip*

"Wont Fix" issues are the most annoying and frustrating to me: people have genuine issues with the software and dutifully report them, only to be told, with a smile, "No"; it reminds me too much of those unhelpful receptionists who decline any request without giving further information.

 

I'd certainly be a lot happier with the situation if they explained why they made that design choice; I certainly can't see any possible benefit, and if they're going to change something like this why not make it an option?

 

I don't know the VS extension API well enough, but might it be possible to write an extension to fix this?

I agree about won't fix being irritating, but it is a numbers game at the end of the day.

Microsoft themselves use the C++ editor to build visual studio and thousands of their own developers are not complaining. When you have worked on a large software application supporting many thousands of users, you learn to prioritise bug fixes and issues.

I bet you on connect there are loads more issues with loads more people complaining about, so rather than please 1 or 2 people,  and annoy hundreds or thousands, a decision is taken against you, as in this case.

I have not used C++ for 5 years or so, but something tells me there is a fix available for this issue, either a setting or a registry hack.

Mind you, I installed Windows 7 and just used it, just like I installed Visual studio 2010 and just used it. People that stayed on XP and missed Vista have a lot more to learn abaout win 7, but to me Vista and windows 7 are very similar.

I think (I mean this in the nicest way) that you should "deal with it" as Dr Herbie would say.

vesuvius said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

I agree about won't fix being irritating, but it is a numbers game at the end of the day.

 

Microsoft themselves use the C++ editor to build visual studio and thousands of their own developers are not complaining. When you have worked on a large software application supporting many thousands of users, you learn to prioritise bug fixes and issues.

 

I bet you on connect there are loads more issues with loads more people complaining about, so rather than please 1 or 2 people,  and annoy hundreds or thousands, a decision is taken against you, as in this case.

 

I have not used C++ for 5 years or so, but something tells me there is a fix available for this issue, either a setting or a registry hack.

 

Mind you, I installed Windows 7 and just used it, just like I installed Visual studio 2010 and just used it. People that stayed on XP and missed Vista have a lot more to learn abaout win 7, but to me Vista and windows 7 are very similar.

 

I think (I mean this in the nicest way) that you should "deal with it" as Dr Herbie would say.

While I personally don't have an issue with the way VS2010 indents, I think it's unacceptable to change such a widely used tool as the VS editor, without providing an option to enable to a legacy behaviour.

elmer said:

vesuvius said:

*snip*

While I personally don't have an issue with the way VS2010 indents, I think it's unacceptable to change such a widely used tool as the VS editor, without providing an option to enable to a legacy behaviour.

I've just tried to update my Visual Studio installation to include C++ but have encountered this bug. I cannot test this myself I'm afraid, and don't have the time to look into correcting the bug to allow me to install C++.

vesuvius said:

elmer said:

*snip*

I've just tried to update my Visual Studio installation to include C++ but have encountered this bug. I cannot test this myself I'm afraid, and don't have the time to look into correcting the bug to allow me to install C++.

W3bbo is actually talking about the C# editor, which shows the same behaviour.

Dr Herbie said:

raptor3676 said:

*snip*

Everyone should go and test here before they complain about software changes

 

(I got a score of 20, slap bang between average scientist and average computer scientist -- which is about right given that I trained in biology and then went into computers!).

 

Herbie

 

Odd. I studied biology and computers at the same time and scored a 43. Is that bad?

vesuvius said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

I agree about won't fix being irritating, but it is a numbers game at the end of the day.

 

Microsoft themselves use the C++ editor to build visual studio and thousands of their own developers are not complaining. When you have worked on a large software application supporting many thousands of users, you learn to prioritise bug fixes and issues.

 

I bet you on connect there are loads more issues with loads more people complaining about, so rather than please 1 or 2 people,  and annoy hundreds or thousands, a decision is taken against you, as in this case.

 

I have not used C++ for 5 years or so, but something tells me there is a fix available for this issue, either a setting or a registry hack.

 

Mind you, I installed Windows 7 and just used it, just like I installed Visual studio 2010 and just used it. People that stayed on XP and missed Vista have a lot more to learn abaout win 7, but to me Vista and windows 7 are very similar.

 

I think (I mean this in the nicest way) that you should "deal with it" as Dr Herbie would say.

"I think (I mean this in the nicest way) that you should "deal with it" as Dr Herbie would say."

Actually I would scream "ADAPT OR DIE!", but that's my academic history coming back to haunt me

Flexibility is important, especially if you ever end up as an on-site contractor; you have to be able to instantly adopt the local practices.

If Asperger's people can learn to be sociable, can they also learn to be adaptable?

Herbie

Shining Arcanine said:

Dr Herbie said:

*snip*

Odd. I studied biology and computers at the same time and scored a 43. Is that bad?

Depends what sort of biology.

I clearly recall the division within the 'Biodoversity' building Southampton University, most obvious in the cafeteria : all the geneticists and biochemists seeming very uptight sitting is closed groups at their tables, while all the ecologists, entomologists and other 'whole animal' biologists were lounging around on the terrace, smoking, drinking and being sociable.

Herbie

W3bbo said:

Ion Todirel said:

*snip*

See this screenshot:

 

 

As you can see, lines that don't contain anything don't have any tabs characters in them. VS2003, 5, and 8 all indented new lines as you pressed the Return key, VS2010 doesn't: it only indents the line once you type something on that line. If you press Return again you get \r\n\r\n rather than \r\n\t\t\t\r\n.

 

When typing code this isn't a huge problem for me because the caret is magically in the right place 90% of the time, but when I move the caret around with my arrow keys it often ends up in Column 1 when it should be in Column 3 (see screenshot, line 98) where it would be if empty lines were indented.

 

 

One question. Does the condition in the ternary operator on line 75 ever evaluate to true?

By the way, those dots in place of spaces are extremely annoying. They make me feel like I am reading space-less strings instead of what I assume is C# code.

Dr Herbie said:

Shining Arcanine said:

*snip*

Depends what sort of biology.

 

I clearly recall the division within the 'Biodoversity' building Southampton University, most obvious in the cafeteria : all the geneticists and biochemists seeming very uptight sitting is closed groups at their tables, while all the ecologists, entomologists and other 'whole animal' biologists were lounging around on the terrace, smoking, drinking and being sociable.

 

Herbie

 

Genetics and Molecular Biology.

Shining Arcanine said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

One question. Does the condition in the ternary operator on line 75 ever evaluate to true?

 

By the way, those dots in place of spaces are extremely annoying. They make me feel like I am reading space-less strings instead of what I assume is C# code.

Line 75 has will pick up the result of the (even = !even) assignment as the condition for the ternary operator, so it will flip-flop every iteration. Nicely succinct.

Herbie

Dr Herbie said:

Shining Arcanine said:

*snip*

Line 75 has will pick up the result of the (even = !even) assignment as the condition for the ternary operator, so it will flip-flop every iteration. Nicely succinct.

 

Herbie

 

 

Ah, okay. I misread it as being (even == !even). I need to start writing some C code. I have not had a reason to write it in a while. :/

Shining Arcanine said:

Dr Herbie said:

*snip*

Ah, okay. I misread it as being (even == !even). I need to start writing some C code. I have not had a reason to write it in a while. :/

It's probably not particularly good practice though. A side-effecting expression as a test for the ternary operator. On the other hand, in this case, it's sufficiently clear what's going on. I like it for its succintness and apparent elegance and dislike it for its impurity; ambivalence, here I come.

Dr Herbie said:

Shining Arcanine said:

*snip*

Line 75 has will pick up the result of the (even = !even) assignment as the condition for the ternary operator, so it will flip-flop every iteration. Nicely succinct.

 

Herbie

 

 

That's okay, I'll rewrite it First Year Undergraduate syntax:

Brush b;

if( even == true ) { even = false; }

else { even = true; }

if( even == true ) b = Brushes.Black;

else b = Brushes.White;

there

Shining Arcanine said:

Dr Herbie said:

*snip*

Odd. I studied biology and computers at the same time and scored a 43. Is that bad?

"Bad" sure; I figured from your post history here on C9 that you must have something like AS, I certainly wasn't expecting anything that high. I guess it's a sign you should see a psychologist for some "social training". I'm not trying to patronise you here, just offering advice that would help you.

...you're not the sort that goes to Pokemon conventions, are you? Is "Shining Arcanine" your character?

W3bbo said:

Shining Arcanine said:

*snip*

"Bad" sure; I figured from your post history here on C9 that you must have something like AS, I certainly wasn't expecting anything that high. I guess it's a sign you should see a psychologist for some "social training". I'm not trying to patronise you here, just offering advice that would help you.

 

...you're not the sort that goes to Pokemon conventions, are you? Is "Shining Arcanine" your character?

Hey hold on, I scored umm, near that, and I don't go to conventions damnit.

blowdart said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

Hey hold on, I scored umm, near that, and I don't go to conventions damnit.

Yes, but if you really had severe Asperger's, you wouldn't care what score you get ...

Herbie

Dr Herbie said:

blowdart said:

*snip*

Yes, but if you really had severe Asperger's, you wouldn't care what score you get ...

 

Herbie

 

A lot of people I know/am are of who proudly label themselves "aspie" (you know the type) seem to revel in being diferent to everyone else, even only for difference's sake, to that end it's possible he would care because it means he's so many points different (or rather, so many points more special, in a kind of self-affirming way) to everyone else, a kind of perverse IQ pissing contest.

(Basically it boils down to "I'm more messed up than you, therefore I'm more special and are deserving of more attention than you")

W3bbo said:

Dr Herbie said:

*snip*

A lot of people I know/am are of who proudly label themselves "aspie" (you know the type) seem to revel in being diferent to everyone else, even only for difference's sake, to that end it's possible he would care because it means he's so many points different (or rather, so many points more special, in a kind of self-affirming way) to everyone else, a kind of perverse IQ pissing contest.

 

(Basically it boils down to "I'm more messed up than you, therefore I'm more special and are deserving of more attention than you")

Heh. It has been interesting to watch as the diagnosis spreads, and then, yes, people use it as a label. Of course when you get people using it as a label its a way to excuse behaviour, not explain it.

That's not just limited to AS of course (or assburgers if you're on Encylopedia Drammatic). There's "Oh my little boy is ADD" when really he's just an annoying little twerp who you don't disipline.

Part of me wonders if we're just looking for excuses these days.

blowdart said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

Hey hold on, I scored umm, near that, and I don't go to conventions damnit.

Hey!

I (used to) go to conventions! I even won the Shadowrun Open tourney at GenCon 2000 and I'm a faithful visitor at PAX.

This year, however, it's going to be different, from the "other side" of the booth 

blowdart said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

Heh. It has been interesting to watch as the diagnosis spreads, and then, yes, people use it as a label. Of course when you get people using it as a label its a way to excuse behaviour, not explain it.

 

That's not just limited to AS of course (or assburgers if you're on Encylopedia Drammatic). There's "Oh my little boy is ADD" when really he's just an annoying little twerp who you don't disipline.

 

Part of me wonders if we're just looking for excuses these days.

Of course people are looking for excuses. Personal responsibility is hard, let's go shopping! (on credit)

PaoloM said:

blowdart said:

*snip*

Hey!

 

I (used to) go to conventions! I even won the Shadowrun Open tourney at GenCon 2000 and I'm a faithful visitor at PAX.

 

This year, however, it's going to be different, from the "other side" of the booth 

You're making my point for me here You and your shadowrun books

blowdart said:

PaoloM said:

*snip*

You're making my point for me here You and your shadowrun books

LOL... I scored a 43, and yet I thought my problem was GOMS... Grumpy Old Man Syndrome... but now I know I can blame something for it.

blowdart said:

PaoloM said:

*snip*

You're making my point for me here You and your shadowrun books

Hey, now it's Monster Manual 3 and the Draconomicon (next month). Dark Sun is going to be HUGE

W3bbo said:

Ion Todirel said:

*snip*

See this screenshot:

 

 

As you can see, lines that don't contain anything don't have any tabs characters in them. VS2003, 5, and 8 all indented new lines as you pressed the Return key, VS2010 doesn't: it only indents the line once you type something on that line. If you press Return again you get \r\n\r\n rather than \r\n\t\t\t\r\n.

 

When typing code this isn't a huge problem for me because the caret is magically in the right place 90% of the time, but when I move the caret around with my arrow keys it often ends up in Column 1 when it should be in Column 3 (see screenshot, line 98) where it would be if empty lines were indented.

 

 

All you need to do is hit enter again on line 98.  Or a quick backspace and return again.  I'm going to bet there may even be a key stroke to indent it back to where it should be.

IMO think VS2010 does that properly.  No need for the spaces/tabs to be there, why save that data to TFS.

PaoloM said:

blowdart said:

*snip*

Hey!

 

I (used to) go to conventions! I even won the Shadowrun Open tourney at GenCon 2000 and I'm a faithful visitor at PAX.

 

This year, however, it's going to be different, from the "other side" of the booth 

Ha, I used to play Shadowrun in college. Good times.

Clint said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

All you need to do is hit enter again on line 98.  Or a quick backspace and return again.  I'm going to bet there may even be a key stroke to indent it back to where it should be.

 

IMO think VS2010 does that properly.  No need for the spaces/tabs to be there, why save that data to TFS.

The "Why save that data to TFS" argument is an example of a microptimisation, and I hardly think Microsoft had that reason in mind when they changed this feature, I can think of a thousand and one other changes made to VS and Windows in general that are decidedly un-miserly.

I emailed the PM of the Visual Studio Editor and she got back to me, forwarding my email to someone who'll shed some light as to why the change was made, I hope to hear from him within a couple of days.