IronRuby dead

rhm said:

wkempf said:

*snip*

re 1: .NET has always been about integrating with other languages/APIs without everything having to compile down to CIL. If the Iron languages go away (which they will only do if there's no interest) then that doesn't leave .NET in an island that precludes using any other language in a .NET solution. CouchDB runs on the Erland virtual machine, but they still use a seperate Javascript runtime with it. IE has a Javascript runtime and also loads code in Java and in .NET if required to. Interop is just as powerful as being able to compile everything down to the same VM.

 

re: 2. Powershell isn't a dynamic language. It has an elaborate type inference system to avoid having to declare types of variables, but it relies on the standard .NET facility for dispatching function invocations. It doesn't use the DLR (predates it by a long time in fact).

 

re: 5. Why would the bulk of current Ruby users (the Mac and Linux crowd) take a dependency on Windows or Mono just to link to .NET libraries? There's tons and tons of open source C and Ruby libraries that they can use already. Even as someone who loves .NET, I can't see any reason why a rails dev would start using .NET technologies and I haven't heard of anyone coming across from the Mac/Linux using Ruby world to Windows because of IronRuby.

 

re: 6. If there's so much interest in IronRuby from .NET developers then there's nothing to worry about. It's already open sourced. If IronRuby developers are, as I suspect, in a minority of a minority, then I can understand the panic.

 

 

re1: None of this addresses the lack of dynamic languages on the CLR if Microsoft drops the "Iron" languages.

re2: PowerShell is certainly dynamic (goes beyond type inference and includes dynamic types), though I'll agree that it doesn't use the DLR.

re5: I dispute that the bulk of Ruby users are in the Mac/Linux crowd, and regardless there's numerous reasons why such devs might want to take a dependency on .NET. I won't argue that those reasons aren't corner case reasons, but you've turned this discussion on it's head in the first place. My point was to dispute the claim you made that by using IronRuby you had to target Windows.

re6: That's not entirely true. OpenSource or not, if Microsoft abandons "Iron" then it's very likely that developers will be reluctant to use them. This is more political than technical, and is unfortunate, and it has little to do with how many people currently use the languages.

wkempf said:

rhm said:

*snip*

re1: None of this addresses the lack of dynamic languages on the CLR if Microsoft drops the "Iron" languages.

 

re2: PowerShell is certainly dynamic (goes beyond type inference and includes dynamic types), though I'll agree that it doesn't use the DLR.

 

re5: I dispute that the bulk of Ruby users are in the Mac/Linux crowd, and regardless there's numerous reasons why such devs might want to take a dependency on .NET. I won't argue that those reasons aren't corner case reasons, but you've turned this discussion on it's head in the first place. My point was to dispute the claim you made that by using IronRuby you had to target Windows.

 

re6: That's not entirely true. OpenSource or not, if Microsoft abandons "Iron" then it's very likely that developers will be reluctant to use them. This is more political than technical, and is unfortunate, and it has little to do with how many people currently use the languages.

Maybe they are planning on using SPUR to replace the DLR.

rhm said:

wkempf said:

*snip*

re 1: .NET has always been about integrating with other languages/APIs without everything having to compile down to CIL. If the Iron languages go away (which they will only do if there's no interest) then that doesn't leave .NET in an island that precludes using any other language in a .NET solution. CouchDB runs on the Erland virtual machine, but they still use a seperate Javascript runtime with it. IE has a Javascript runtime and also loads code in Java and in .NET if required to. Interop is just as powerful as being able to compile everything down to the same VM.

 

re: 2. Powershell isn't a dynamic language. It has an elaborate type inference system to avoid having to declare types of variables, but it relies on the standard .NET facility for dispatching function invocations. It doesn't use the DLR (predates it by a long time in fact).

 

re: 5. Why would the bulk of current Ruby users (the Mac and Linux crowd) take a dependency on Windows or Mono just to link to .NET libraries? There's tons and tons of open source C and Ruby libraries that they can use already. Even as someone who loves .NET, I can't see any reason why a rails dev would start using .NET technologies and I haven't heard of anyone coming across from the Mac/Linux using Ruby world to Windows because of IronRuby.

 

re: 6. If there's so much interest in IronRuby from .NET developers then there's nothing to worry about. It's already open sourced. If IronRuby developers are, as I suspect, in a minority of a minority, then I can understand the panic.

 

 

How do you do WPF development in CRuby? You could with IronRuby. You could mix and match C# and Ruby code in your ASP.NET projects. You could have a no effort Ruby scripting API for your app. This kind of stuff is very difficult to do with the C runtime.

I don't really even see much of a reason to use CRuby. JRuby is a fairly complete Ruby implementation. But it has full Java interop. And get this, it actually runs Ruby _faster_ then the original implementation. IronRuby had a lot of potential. It could have been the premier Ruby implementation with just a little more effort on Microsoft's part. IMO.

Dropping these languages really detracts from the whole "one runtime to rule them all" mantra. Well maybe that mantra never really existed. Maybe at some point Microsoft will change CLR to stand for C# Language Runtime.

Bass said:

rhm said:

*snip*

How do you do WPF development in CRuby? You could with IronRuby. You could mix and match C# and Ruby code in your ASP.NET projects. You could have a no effort Ruby scripting API for your app. This kind of stuff is very difficult to do with the C runtime.

 

I don't really even see much of a reason to use CRuby. JRuby is a fairly complete Ruby implementation. But it has full Java interop. And get this, it actually runs Ruby _faster_ then the original implementation. IronRuby had a lot of potential. It could have been the premier Ruby implementation with just a little more effort on Microsoft's part. IMO.

 

Dropping these languages really detracts from the whole "one runtime to rule them all" mantra. Well maybe that mantra never really existed. Maybe at some point Microsoft will change CLR to stand for C# Language Runtime.

Isn't that true just from the codedom, samples released.  

Think the best statement I have heard for the state of the codedom,  it is the best platform for creating code as long as it is exactly C#,  even in the case of generating VB.net. 

My Gut feeling is that within 2 versions F# will no longer be a language available in VS.  Given the removal of Jscript, in the recent past. apparent removal of support of the Iron languages. 

The sad part is that there will have to be a fundamental change of the BCL (immutable types, Isolation, actor based passing? instead of tightly coupled method passing) to support the coming multiprocessor revolution.  (talking 12 core or more)   So I do see significant changes coming in the near futre to all the base languages.  

Douglas

Bass said:

rhm said:

*snip*

How do you do WPF development in CRuby? You could with IronRuby. You could mix and match C# and Ruby code in your ASP.NET projects. You could have a no effort Ruby scripting API for your app. This kind of stuff is very difficult to do with the C runtime.

 

I don't really even see much of a reason to use CRuby. JRuby is a fairly complete Ruby implementation. But it has full Java interop. And get this, it actually runs Ruby _faster_ then the original implementation. IronRuby had a lot of potential. It could have been the premier Ruby implementation with just a little more effort on Microsoft's part. IMO.

 

Dropping these languages really detracts from the whole "one runtime to rule them all" mantra. Well maybe that mantra never really existed. Maybe at some point Microsoft will change CLR to stand for C# Language Runtime.

Nobody cares about WPF except a (small) subset of .NET developers. Seriously - 99% of the worlds developers are working on something web-related and the other 1% have a wide choice of UI frameworks. Ruby developers wouldn't be caught dead using ASP.NET when they have Rails. There are a variety of scripting options for .NET apps and like I said before, Ruby is a pretty oddball language syntax-wise - I think offering Ruby scripting in my apps would only be of interest to people who already know Ruby.

If JRuby is any good, that only reduces further any interest from non-.NET developers in IronRuby. I'm not a fan of Java by any means, but it runs fully supported on most platforms. IronRuby would never be the main Ruby implementation unless all the others were truely useless.

What I'm seeing here is a small number of .NET developers who like Ruby. Which is fine. But the idea that IronRuby is something that ever had huge potential is just a fantasy those people are revelling in to try and make out the [potential] loss of their pet language is more significant than it really is.

Bass said:

rhm said:

*snip*

How do you do WPF development in CRuby? You could with IronRuby. You could mix and match C# and Ruby code in your ASP.NET projects. You could have a no effort Ruby scripting API for your app. This kind of stuff is very difficult to do with the C runtime.

 

I don't really even see much of a reason to use CRuby. JRuby is a fairly complete Ruby implementation. But it has full Java interop. And get this, it actually runs Ruby _faster_ then the original implementation. IronRuby had a lot of potential. It could have been the premier Ruby implementation with just a little more effort on Microsoft's part. IMO.

 

Dropping these languages really detracts from the whole "one runtime to rule them all" mantra. Well maybe that mantra never really existed. Maybe at some point Microsoft will change CLR to stand for C# Language Runtime.

I'm kind of hoping that IronPython ends up being safe, I was about to use it in a product.  Could really do with a word from the product teams on this!

Bass said:

figuerres said:

*snip*

Because people use more then two languages. Personally I think everyone should STFU and use Java.

 

Oh wait.

 

Do you get what I mean though?

 

You might be a C# programmer and you probably think everyone is using just "one or two of them". But that's because you are pigeon holed into that niche. IE. Oracle DBA will think everyone uses Oracle, because he is pigeon holed by his own Resume into a career as an Oracle DBA. So all he will ever see is Oracle this Oracle that. But that is a false idea. 

Bass, You have not a clue.........

let me see just a few of the things is have used :

Perl

Cobol

Basic (multiple versions)

Pascal

C

X86 MASAM

Z80 Assembler

6502 Assembler

WebBase (A type of SmallTalk)

C#

Java

VB 1-6

VB.NET

Sybase SQL Anywhere

Oracle 7.xx

MS Access v1.... Office 2000 version

SUn OS

Linux

Multiple versions of Windows Server.

dBasae II / III / III+

FoxBase (before MS owned it)

Crystal Reports

Clipper

NOvell Netware 2.xxx

Mac OS 6.xxx and 7.xxx and OSX

all of the above and more i have been paid to use for clients.

things i have tinked with but not made money on:

Forth

Lisp

CuBloc Basic

AMiga OS

possible future work may be on the iPad / iPhone if a project needs it, in the planning stage riight now.

and you think I am stuck on one platform or language ???  HA HA HA HA 

Wake UP!

I do stuff that pay my bills, right now it's using C# - but next week ? who knows?

figuerres said:

Bass said:

*snip*

Bass, You have not a clue.........

 

let me see just a few of the things is have used :

 

Perl

Cobol

Basic (multiple versions)

Pascal

C

X86 MASAM

Z80 Assembler

6502 Assembler

WebBase (A type of SmallTalk)

C#

Java

VB 1-6

VB.NET

Sybase SQL Anywhere

Oracle 7.xx

MS Access v1.... Office 2000 version

SUn OS

Linux

Multiple versions of Windows Server.

dBasae II / III / III+

FoxBase (before MS owned it)

Crystal Reports

Clipper

NOvell Netware 2.xxx

Mac OS 6.xxx and 7.xxx and OSX

 

all of the above and more i have been paid to use for clients.

 

things i have tinked with but not made money on:

Forth

Lisp

CuBloc Basic

AMiga OS

 

possible future work may be on the iPad / iPhone if a project needs it, in the planning stage riight now.

 

and you think I am stuck on one platform or language ???  HA HA HA HA 

 

Wake UP!

 

I do stuff that pay my bills, right now it's using C# - but next week ? who knows?

 

I could probably listen dozens of languages on my Resume too, and for awhile I did. But nobody cares that you "used" a language. I realized how crappy it looked with a bunch of languages I barely used all over my Resume.

A better question 5-10+ years of professional expirence using one of those exclusively? How about all of them? Are you 300 years old?

Eg:

Senior Delphi Developer

Requirements

- 7 Years of Delphi experience

...

Senior C# Developer

Requirements

- 7 Years of C# experience

...

I can't get that Delphi job even if I have played around with Delphi. Etc.

Bass said:

figuerres said:

*snip*

I could probably listen dozens of languages on my Resume too, and for awhile I did. But nobody cares that you "used" a language. I realized how crappy it looked with a bunch of languages I barely used all over my Resume.

 

A better question 5-10+ years of professional expirence using one of those exclusively? How about all of them? Are you 300 years old?

 

Eg:

 

Senior Delphi Developer

Requirements

- 7 Years of Delphi experience

...

 

Senior C# Developer

Requirements

- 7 Years of C# experience

...

 

I can't get that Delphi job even if I have played around with Delphi. Etc.

Hey make up your mind.... you said i was .... how did you put it? "Pigeon holed" on one language?

so i pointed out that i am not stuck on just the MS "Fashion List"

as for how long etc.... yeah the core of my work is rather more focused on a few of them....

just do not think that i am a "One Trick Pony" I can do whatever needs to be done.

and I have the background to have a feel for what's what.

and think outside the box to be creative and practical as needed.

figuerres said:

Bass said:

*snip*

Hey make up your mind.... you said i was .... how did you put it? "Pigeon holed" on one language?

so i pointed out that i am not stuck on just the MS "Fashion List"

as for how long etc.... yeah the core of my work is rather more focused on a few of them....

just do not think that i am a "One Trick Pony" I can do whatever needs to be done.

and I have the background to have a feel for what's what.

and think outside the box to be creative and practical as needed.

 

Sure you can drop your Senior .NET Developer position and be a Entry-level Ruby Developer, but at the point you are basically rebooting your career. You won't be at the same level professionally as someone doing Ruby for 5 years, even if they are much younger then you. Five years of full time experience doing something day in and day out makes a big difference.

Bass said:

figuerres said:

*snip*

Sure you can drop your Senior .NET Developer position and be a Entry-level Ruby Developer, but at the point you are basically rebooting your career. You won't be at the same level professionally as someone doing Ruby for 5 years, even if they are much younger then you. Five years of full time experience doing something day in and day out makes a big difference.

so what ?

if i need to switch i can but right now i am doing fine and do not need to.

i do not see any point here that's new....   if you can't adapt you fail. if you can you keep moving to where the work is.

*IF* i had to take on Ruby I am sure i could very quickly but I think there is more to the job and the pay than just years in one tech.

like a track record of beeing able to take on hard stuff and make it work.

and the skills to look at all the options and tell folks more than one way to make it work.

anyway... you took this way far from your point.... you spoke of the MSFT and Iron Ruby and i said two things on that topic and now you are going off on some tangent about what i can or can't do......

get back on topic or drop it.

That's talk about mine.

1st Job:

VBA: Excel (Zero Experience)

Javascript (Zero Experience)

Crystal Report (Never heard of it)

Great Plains (Never heard of it)

SalesForce (Never heard of it)

SQL (Hated it in school, but, I learned it)

HTML (High School skill)

My Skill:

C++ (No use)

Java (No use)

My hobbit:

C# (No use)

2nd Job:

Crazy strange muti-browser CSS, DOM, HTML crap (same as my High School skill)

Debug Infogragistic web controls. (WOOOORD)

C# (so far, they didn't give me any C# task)

jQuery (Never heard of it, but, I did XPath in school)

jQuery UI (Never heard of it)

So, do we really need to know all those languages? When I get the interview from my second job, they ask me C# and SQL only. And I haven't really used it in my current job. It seems like they are hiring me not to do what they are already doing, but, what they wanted and no one really got the time to explore it.

My thought, learn too much = information overload. Unless you master a language, you can off-road for fun. Computer science is not about remember everything you learn because there is too much to learn. For every 5 to 10 years, new thing comes out.

Anyway, about the IronRuby, well, RIP. I don't really care actually. Tried it in RPG Maker XP, terrible terrible experience. I want class, private, public, static feilds. I want out parameter with "out" warning so I don't mess up. I want it to failed compile most of the time instead of getting runtime exceptions. Those brainy guy can type perfect code they want. But, I am not perfect guy, I need IDE to babysit me. So far, I make the most elegant code when I am using C#. 

......as they are the typical big-company middle-management issues every software developer has......

Its sad to hear that the DevDiv suffers this kind of bs too, too bad.

dynamic infrasturacture is definetely an important capability for a runtime that 'runs them all', maybe DLR is not that optimal, but at least the team can learn a lot from it and be prepared to implement them at lower layers.

now who's going to wake up and take it seriously again ????? or not ??????

supports for specific languages is another problem, if the company think its too small a niche market to use their resources, then hand it to the community is a good option, JRuby started as a community effort too, and now became independent also.

magicalclick said:

That's talk about mine.

 

1st Job:

VBA: Excel (Zero Experience)

Javascript (Zero Experience)

Crystal Report (Never heard of it)

Great Plains (Never heard of it)

SalesForce (Never heard of it)

SQL (Hated it in school, but, I learned it)

HTML (High School skill)

 

My Skill:

C++ (No use)

Java (No use)

 

My hobbit:

C# (No use)

 

2nd Job:

Crazy strange muti-browser CSS, DOM, HTML crap (same as my High School skill)

Debug Infogragistic web controls. (WOOOORD)

C# (so far, they didn't give me any C# task)

jQuery (Never heard of it, but, I did XPath in school)

jQuery UI (Never heard of it)

 

So, do we really need to know all those languages? When I get the interview from my second job, they ask me C# and SQL only. And I haven't really used it in my current job. It seems like they are hiring me not to do what they are already doing, but, what they wanted and no one really got the time to explore it.

 

My thought, learn too much = information overload. Unless you master a language, you can off-road for fun. Computer science is not about remember everything you learn because there is too much to learn. For every 5 to 10 years, new thing comes out.

 

Anyway, about the IronRuby, well, RIP. I don't really care actually. Tried it in RPG Maker XP, terrible terrible experience. I want class, private, public, static feilds. I want out parameter with "out" warning so I don't mess up. I want it to failed compile most of the time instead of getting runtime exceptions. Those brainy guy can type perfect code they want. But, I am not perfect guy, I need IDE to babysit me. So far, I make the most elegant code when I am using C#. 

 

 

 

My thought, learn too much = information overload. Unless you master a language, you can off-road for fun. Computer science is not about remember everything you learn because there is too much to learn. For every 5 to 10 years, new thing comes out.

That is 100% true and my point exactly. That's why you can't force the whole world onto "one or two" languages.

felix9 said:

......as they are the typical big-company middle-management issues every software developer has......

 

Its sad to hear that the DevDiv suffers this kind of bs too, too bad.

 

dynamic infrasturacture is definetely an important capability for a runtime that 'runs them all', maybe DLR is not that optimal, but at least the team can learn a lot from it and be prepared to implement them at lower layers.

 

now who's going to wake up and take it seriously again ????? or not ??????

 

supports for specific languages is another problem, if the company think its too small a niche market to use their resources, then hand it to the community is a good option, JRuby started as a community effort too, and now became independent also.

I really don't have much faith in the alleged .NET FOSS community. I'd love to be proven wrong but I think without Microsoft's support IronRuby will be effectively dead.

figuerres said:

Bass said:

*snip*

so what ?

 

if i need to switch i can but right now i am doing fine and do not need to.

 

i do not see any point here that's new....   if you can't adapt you fail. if you can you keep moving to where the work is.

 

*IF* i had to take on Ruby I am sure i could very quickly but I think there is more to the job and the pay than just years in one tech.

like a track record of beeing able to take on hard stuff and make it work.

and the skills to look at all the options and tell folks more than one way to make it work.

 

anyway... you took this way far from your point.... you spoke of the MSFT and Iron Ruby and i said two things on that topic and now you are going off on some tangent about what i can or can't do......

get back on topic or drop it.

 

 

From the tone of your posts, it almost feels like you think I am insulting your programming ability. I don't know anything about your programming ability. Therefore, insulting it would be stupid and pointless really.

No, if I was insulting you, I'd use something more visible. Like your complete lack of spelling or grammar skills. But see, that's the thing: I'm not trying to insult you. Besides, that would make me a grammar/spelling naazi[sic], and that's something I most certainly am not. I hate putting the effort sometimes to proofread random garbage I put on the Internet. So why would I tell other people to do so? I hate when people like to point out every little petty grammar rule I violated when I posted some angry diatribe anonymously over the Internets[sic]. So why would I decide to become one of these people? It just doesn't really make much sense.

I'll just say it plainly: I was just trying to make a point. Unfortunately, that point was poorly expressed. It was poorly expressed because it seemed to go way over your head. It probably over most people's head, except maybe magicalclick. Although I am not sure he actually derived my point from all various rambling in this thread. So I apologise in advance for trying.