I would

Microsoft has always been my dream job.  Its one of those things that I know I will do, its on my bucket list.   Microsoft has always had interesting projects and they do interesting things.  To go work there now, they would have to buy out my business.  The state of my clients prevents me from just dropping everything.

If you could work for MS, what would you want to do?  What department would you want to work in?

That summarizes Microsoft in a sentence.

Their whole PR campaign is like Data from Star Trek. A heartless, mindless robot that crushes the bones in your hand shaking it. None the less it spends hundreds of millions of dollars trying to convince the public that it's human and compassionate(about something or other).

Not trying to start a flame war. Just airing my opinion.

And to answer the question in the subject, I wouldn't do jack sh*t for Microsoft.

But if I do get admitted into the PhD programme I'm aiming for (in a little over a years' time from now) and, of course, I graduate in reasonable time, then I'd like to land a Researcher position at MSR where I can persue my research interests in computer vision and usability.

I'd then build a custom designed house in a three-acre hillside plot to the east of the Redmond campus and alternatively hang-glide or drive a Lambo into work.

Dream on.

It's interesting that there's an idea of Microsoft being "a robot". Probably it's because the company is so big - and this is my personal opinion (as always) What I see is that we are rather a ton of small companies within one company. Small agile teams (at least in Azure, which is where I have visibility) working on interesting projects.

So far, after 1 year in Redmond, I can say that it is really a dream job. I enjoy going to work and I work long hours because it's so much fun. Our team has startup mentality with a lot of people who want to build interesting things, thinking about simplifying APIs and interaction with software and how to make things open for everyone.

But frankly I am being disingenuous if I said I wanted to work for Microsoft. If the pay was right and the job was good, I absolutely would, but it would just be another job. While Microsoft does some very good stuff, I'm not sure how much I would enjoy the middle management culture within the company and the politics of it all.

Google would be higher on my list. Apple would be much lower on my list.

W3bbo said:

If it turns out that I'm not elite PhD material, I'd be happy settling for an SDE position on a user-facing product, but ideally I'd like to form a roving "death squad" that hops between MS product teams to eliminate UI issues, something that's been irking me since Vista came out.

 

But if I do get admitted into the PhD programme I'm aiming for (in a little over a years' time from now) and, of course, I graduate in reasonable time, then I'd like to land a Researcher position at MSR where I can persue my research interests in computer vision and usability.

 

I'd then build a custom designed house in a three-acre hillside plot to the east of the Redmond campus and alternatively hang-glide or drive a Lambo into work.

 

Dream on.

Research students are not paid as well as you think, and their inventions usually are swallowed up by the company or academic institution they work for. Juxtapose this to this 16 year old that is already on his way.

Research pays you well in terms of distinction amongst colleagues, and reputation globally. I am now getting to the stage where I cannot really move up the pay scale unless I move up into management, or start my own business up. I think the best position is in being able to create a software product that can allow me to go work in a charity shop 2 days a week, but still afford me a comfortable life

Even PhD students reach a point of saturation, most never release a product or work that is of any real financial value, it's important you recognise this, as it can be very challenging working on projects for years that nearly make it. I have been and am working with researchers, so I know just how frustrating it can be seeing products fail - most universities are mini-corporations now so you may not have to go very far to get to a user facing product. You need to be very strong mentally as well as intelligent, cos' it's a hard slog

vesuvius said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

Research students are not paid as well as you think, and their inventions usually are swallowed up by the company or academic institution they work for. Juxtapose this to this 16 year old that is already on his way.

 

Research pays you well in terms of distinction amongst colleagues, and reputation globally. I am now getting to the stage where I cannot really move up the pay scale unless I move up into management, or start my own business up. I think the best position is in being able to create a software product that can allow me to go work in a charity shop 2 days a week, but still afford me a comfortable life

 

Even PhD students reach a point of saturation, most never release a product or work that is of any real financial value, it's important you recognise this, as it can be very challenging working on projects for years that nearly make it. I have been and am working with researchers, so I know just how frustrating it can be seeing products fail - most universities are mini-corporations now so you may not have to go very far to get to a user facing product. You need to be very strong mentally as well as intelligent, cos' it's a hard slog

That's why I'm planning on entering the industry right after I graduate, rather than linger-on in academia as a postdoc.

According to Glassdoor, Researcher's salaries are pretty generous, whilst the lower-end of the range is comparativly low, I'm surprised at how high the average is.

W3bbo said:

vesuvius said:

*snip*

That's why I'm planning on entering the industry right after I graduate, rather than linger-on in academia as a postdoc.

 

According to Glassdoor, Researcher's salaries are pretty generous, whilst the lower-end of the range is comparativly low, I'm surprised at how high the average is.

Since Microsoft Research mostly hires PhD grad's, I'm not sure that salary is high. Likely average for that level of qualifications.

Google was always my dream job. I don't think so anymore.

Bass said:

I don't think I'd enjoy working for Microsoft. The only division I really "respect" is Microsoft Research, and I don't qualify for that.

 

Google was always my dream job. I don't think so anymore.

For now

W3bbo said:

vesuvius said:

*snip*

That's why I'm planning on entering the industry right after I graduate, rather than linger-on in academia as a postdoc.

 

According to Glassdoor, Researcher's salaries are pretty generous, whilst the lower-end of the range is comparativly low, I'm surprised at how high the average is.

Yes, but a few people with high salaries will skew the average.

MS works with bands, and each band has it's own range. Moving up the lower bands (<62) is mainly a matter of exceeding expectations, but once you get to the level 63 hop it becomes a bit more challenging as your manager has to justify that leap to their peers. 63-64 needs skip level manager agreement, and again is justified with peers.  Mini microsoft has a good explanation/summary.

vesuvius said:

Bass said:

*snip*

For now

If I get a Ph.D. I'll probably work for my current employeer's research department. Right now I'm focusing on just getting a Masters degree, which is much easier.

blowdart said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

Yes, but a few people with high salaries will skew the average.

 

MS works with bands, and each band has it's own range. Moving up the lower bands (<62) is mainly a matter of exceeding expectations, but once you get to the level 63 hop it becomes a bit more challenging as your manager has to justify that leap to their peers. 63-64 needs skip level manager agreement, and again is justified with peers.  Mini microsoft has a good explanation/summary.

Point taken, however it looks like the outliers are at the bottom, and that it really is a very well compensated position. If I restrict the salary search to between 0 and 3 years' experience, the minimum is $97k, when I seached for 10+ years experience, it rose to $107k.

...which leads me to believe that pay is not a function of seniority at MSR.

W3bbo said:

blowdart said:

*snip*

Point taken, however it looks like the outliers are at the bottom, and that it really is a very well compensated position. If I restrict the salary search to between 0 and 3 years' experience, the minimum is $97k, when I seached for 10+ years experience, it rose to $107k.

 

...which leads me to believe that pay is not a function of seniority at MSR.

The bottom might be interns. Who knows, the whole pay thing is a mystery to me I'll discover the delights of in a few weeks.

W3bbo said:

blowdart said:

*snip*

Point taken, however it looks like the outliers are at the bottom, and that it really is a very well compensated position. If I restrict the salary search to between 0 and 3 years' experience, the minimum is $97k, when I seached for 10+ years experience, it rose to $107k.

 

...which leads me to believe that pay is not a function of seniority at MSR.

That isn't that much money for the area.

I know a few people from the mid-west or srilanka or something must be like, wow 100k, that's so much money in my currency.

The reality is 100k, at least at the Mountain View campus, will probably buy you a down payment on a very small and sh*tty condo you will be paying for the next 30 years. You honestly need to make way more than that.

I'm not singling out Microsoft here. 100k is the base for a lot of other tech companies that regularly hire programmers.

What we need is to have these companies start letting people work from home, and only go to meetings once every 2 months.
That way programmers could literally work for a company like Microsoft, but live in the mid-west or Tibet where their modest 100k/year would buy them something close to a mansion with an army of hired help if you consider the latter.

It would seem that only very senior people, such as directors are allowed to teleconference into meetings at most companies, and that's sad.

That should change. It would also change the economies in Redmond, and many places in California that depend on these people getting economically screwed because they live in those areas.

C732648723643 said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

That isn't that much money for the area.

I know a few people from the mid-west or srilanka or something must be like, wow 100k, that's so much money in my currency.

The reality is 100k, at least at the Mountain View campus, will probably buy you a down payment on a very small and sh*tty condo you will be paying for the next 30 years. You honestly need to make way more than that.

 

I'm not singling out Microsoft here. 100k is the base for a lot of other tech companies that regularly hire programmers.

 

What we need is to have these companies start letting people work from home, and only go to meetings once every 2 months.
That way programmers could literally work for a company like Microsoft, but live in the mid-west or Tibet where their modest 100k/year would buy them something close to a mansion with an army of hired help if you consider the latter.

 

It would seem that only very senior people, such as directors are allowed to teleconference into meetings at most companies, and that's sad.

That should change. It would also change the economies in Redmond, and many places in California that depend on these people getting economically screwed because they live in those areas.

Nice try, Beer;

Anyway: the salaries are actually for the Redmond area. $100k a year for a late-20something is nothing to be sniffed at.

W3bbo said:

C732648723643 said:

*snip*

Nice try, Beer;

 

Anyway: the salaries are actually for the Redmond area. $100k a year for a late-20something is nothing to be sniffed at.

I am not Beer.

You need to earn 100k/year, and get back to us about your luxurious lifestyle. I'll love to hear about it.

spivonious said:

I'd love to work there. Windows division or some game.

Same here. I really like their games with managed code movement with XNA. OS programming is the next most interesting thing. 

C732648723643 said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

I am not Beer.

 

You need to earn 100k/year, and get back to us about your luxurious lifestyle. I'll love to hear about it.

$100k is a f**king amazing salary, I don't know what planet you are from. It's easily double the national average. I hope to reach the magaical $100k mark one day, but I'm quite far from it.

$100k a year is $8333 gross per month. Assuming a 35% tax (extremely conservative estimate) that's still $5416 net. Assuming $1500/mo for a 1 bedroom (I'm pretty sure Seattle-area COL is not even close to this), you are still left with over $4000 a month. That's more money that any individual like W3bbo would even know what to do with.

Bass said:

C732648723643 said:

*snip*

$100k is a f**king amazing salary, I don't know what planet you are from. It's easily double the national average. I hope to reach the magaical $100k mark one day, but I'm quite far from it.

 

$100k a year is $8333 gross per month. Assuming a 35% tax (extremely conservative estimate) that's still $5416 net. Assuming $1500/mo for a 1 bedroom (I'm pretty sure Seattle-area COL is not even close to this), you are still left with over $4000 a month. That's more money that any individual like W3bbo would even know what to do with.

"I don't know what planet you are from"

He's from Canada.

Bass said:

C732648723643 said:

*snip*

$100k is a f**king amazing salary, I don't know what planet you are from. It's easily double the national average. I hope to reach the magaical $100k mark one day, but I'm quite far from it.

 

$100k a year is $8333 gross per month. Assuming a 35% tax (extremely conservative estimate) that's still $5416 net. Assuming $1500/mo for a 1 bedroom (I'm pretty sure Seattle-area COL is not even close to this), you are still left with over $4000 a month. That's more money that any individual like W3bbo would even know what to do with.

$4000 USD a month to play with after rent/mortgage, taxes, and bills?

Hmmm.

• $1000 into my Lamborghini fund (only $250,000 more to go...)
• $1000 into whatever side business I'm working on (right now it's robotics)
• $1000 into long-term savings/pension
• $1000 discretionary/charity/"self", of that about $200 a month on food.

I'm not the type who'd blow a salary like that, my mother often complains I spend my money too much, but that's because as soon as I started earning actually useful amounts of money (2006+) I had things I needed to buy straight away (2006: laptop, new PDA, phone, 2007: new monitors, 2008: new desktop for uni and everything that went along with that, etc).

I think Americans, in general, have too much disposable income which leads to the material consumer society that's lost its soul.

W3bbo said:

Bass said:

*snip*

$4000 USD a month to play with after rent/mortgage, taxes, and bills?

 

Hmmm.

 

• $1000 into my Lamborghini fund (only $250,000 more to go...)
• $1000 into whatever side business I'm working on (right now it's robotics)
• $1000 into long-term savings/pension
• $1000 discretionary/charity/"self", of that about $200 a month on food.

I'm not the type who'd blow a salary like that, my mother often complains I spend my money too much, but that's because as soon as I started earning actually useful amounts of money (2006+) I had things I needed to buy straight away (2006: laptop, new PDA, phone, 2007: new monitors, 2008: new desktop for uni and everything that went along with that, etc).

 

I think Americans, in general, have too much disposable income which leads to the material consumer society that's lost its soul.

Well probably. I will being kind of conservative. Utilites (electric/water/electric/phone) run me about $200/month. It's unlikely you'll pay $1500/mo for rent. That's about what it costs in my area, but Seattle is much cheaper.

Point is I highly doubt you'll feel financially unstable if you make $100k, pretty much anywhere in the USA. Unless you absolutely have to live in a 5 bedroom house or eat at Morton's Steakhouse for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Bass said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

Well probably. I will being kind of conservative. Utilites (electric/water/electric/phone) run me about $200/month. It's unlikely you'll pay $1500/mo for rent. That's about what it costs in my area, but Seattle is much cheaper.

 

Point is I highly doubt you'll feel financially unstable if you make $100k, pretty much anywhere in the USA. Unless you absolutely have to live in a 5 bedroom house or eat at Morton's Steakhouse for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

 

Actually, I was planning on buying a large hillside plot of land (overlooking Seattle) and build a relatively large house (not out of opulence, I just like having space around me) complete with hang-glider/microlight landing strip. The house would be built in to the hillside, like a Hobbit house, and have giant cubes jutting out of the hill as bedrooms (with 3 of the 4 sides being glass). I'd also want an expansive storage area underneath, I hate attics.

I figured with a $100k/year salary from MSR, and plenty coming from my own software biz (assuming it takes off in the coming few years) then I'll be all set. Anyone fancy moonlighting as comission-based sales agents for me?

W3bbo said:

Bass said:

*snip*

Actually, I was planning on buying a large hillside plot of land (overlooking Seattle) and build a relatively large house (not out of opulence, I just like having space around me) complete with hang-glider/microlight landing strip. The house would be built in to the hillside, like a Hobbit house, and have giant cubes jutting out of the hill as bedrooms (with 3 of the 4 sides being glass). I'd also want an expansive storage area underneath, I hate attics.

 

I figured with a $100k/year salary from MSR, and plenty coming from my own software biz (assuming it takes off in the coming few years) then I'll be all set. Anyone fancy moonlighting as comission-based sales agents for me?

Seriously?

I'd start from an estabilished credit and I'd imagine a $1Mil for that kind of land you're talking about.

Really guys, any of you live in the real world? $100K is in the top 2% *worldwide*, it can be a very comfortable life but it certainly doesn't leave room for weird stuff.

For example, mortgage: ~$2,400; car: ~$750; cable/internet: $150; food: $600; phone: $70; utilities: $100; 401k: $600; etc etc etc... $5,200/month go away quite fast.

On the other hand, Chris is still recovering from sinking his car. We must be kind.

PS: Oh yeah, no moonlighting. Forget side businesses in the US.

Bass said:

C732648723643 said:

*snip*

$100k is a f**king amazing salary, I don't know what planet you are from. It's easily double the national average. I hope to reach the magaical $100k mark one day, but I'm quite far from it.

 

$100k a year is $8333 gross per month. Assuming a 35% tax (extremely conservative estimate) that's still $5416 net. Assuming $1500/mo for a 1 bedroom (I'm pretty sure Seattle-area COL is not even close to this), you are still left with over $4000 a month. That's more money that any individual like W3bbo would even know what to do with.

"I don't know what planet you are from."

I'm from planet SOCAL where 90% of the traffic is newer model BMWs.

"I hope to reach the magaical $100k mark one day, but I'm quite far from it."

Shame may keep you from asking for a raise while shameless coders go with a better life. I am lucky. I can more or less shamelessly ask for things. Sometimes I get them, other times I don't. The exact way Bill Gates shamelessly doubled the licensing cost of Altair Basic to MITS in ~1976. You have to use extreme leveraging and be fearless.

"$100k a year is $8333 gross per month. Assuming a 35% tax (extremely conservative estimate) that's still $5416 net."

It's far lower once you get yourself a dependent. You also didn't factor in your killer super programmer all coverage medical/dental/vision insurance(employer typically pays $3-500 of it), your 401k contributions(typically matched by the employer at some level) which at your age should be no less than 18%, and other expenses.

"Assuming $1500/mo for a 1 bedroom (I'm pretty sure Seattle-area COL is not even close to this), you are still left with over $4000 a month. That's more money that any individual like W3bbo would even know what to do with."

That's assuming you don't have many services and live like a shut in, but OK.

That's not that much when you subtract typical bills that you will have. You only have about $3000-3500 clear per month.

If you invest 1/3 of your earnings in the stock market, as recommended by some personal financial schemes, kiss another $1500 goodbye.

Then if you have personal projects on top of that, well...

So yeah....

If you just go to work and do nothing else, that's an OK salary. Most programmers capable of that salary around here are doing a lot more than just going to work in the day time to say the least.

PaoloM said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

Seriously?

 

I'd start from an estabilished credit and I'd imagine a $1Mil for that kind of land you're talking about.

 

Really guys, any of you live in the real world? $100K is in the top 2% *worldwide*, it can be a very comfortable life but it certainly doesn't leave room for weird stuff.

 

For example, mortgage: ~$2,400; car: ~$750; cable/internet: $150; food: $600; phone: $70; utilities: $100; 401k: $600; etc etc etc... $5,200/month go away quite fast.

 

On the other hand, Chris is still recovering from sinking his car. We must be kind.

 

PS: Oh yeah, no moonlighting. Forget side businesses in the US.

"PS: Oh yeah, no moonlighting. Forget side businesses in the US."

Bullsh*t. You tell them when you sign your employee contract or yearly handbook or whatever. No freedom, no codey.

See how tough your employer really is. It's sad, but you either push, or you get pushed around. I have lots of 100k+ coder friends and none of them get pushed out of side work freedom. Most have the stones to push employers out of non-competes as well.

It's all about opening cracks. Get an inch and take a mile. Treat everything like an exploit. Be a life hacker.

No employer is going to give a sh*t about you past the keys you push on your keyboard. Treat it like that. Their only concern with your well being is that if you get hit by a bus, you won't be able to come back in the next morning(mid afternoon) and push the keyboard keys again to make them the big $$$. That's reality.

C732648723643 said:

PaoloM said:

*snip*

"PS: Oh yeah, no moonlighting. Forget side businesses in the US."

 

Bullsh*t. You tell them when you sign your employee contract or yearly handbook or whatever. No freedom, no codey.

See how tough your employer really is. It's sad, but you either push, or you get pushed around. I have lots of 100k+ coder friends and none of them get pushed out of side work freedom. Most have the stones to push employers out of non-competes as well.

 

It's all about opening cracks. Get an inch and take a mile. Treat everything like an exploit. Be a life hacker.

 

No employer is going to give a sh*t about you past the keys you push on your keyboard. Treat it like that. Their only concern with your well being is that if you get hit by a bus, you won't be able to come back in the next morning(mid afternoon) and push the keyboard keys again to make them the big $$$. That's reality.

MS is open, in fact there's a moonlighting policy which boils down to if there's no COI and it's not on work time, feel free.

blowdart said:

C732648723643 said:

*snip*

MS is open, in fact there's a moonlighting policy which boils down to if there's no COI and it's not on work time, feel free.

I am more than positive that MS employees have to hide their outside activities to an extent to avoid internal investigations even with a moonlighting policy depending on what team they are on. Elsewhere it's different.

C732648723643 said:

blowdart said:

*snip*

I am more than positive that MS employees have to hide their outside activities to an extent to avoid internal investigations even with a moonlighting policy depending on what team they are on. Elsewhere it's different.

I did check the moonlighting policy before I joined - I'm pretty much free to do anything I had wanted to do, be it write another book, contribute to open source (as long as it's not GPLed obviously, risks of contamination being what it is)

blowdart said:

C732648723643 said:

*snip*

I did check the moonlighting policy before I joined - I'm pretty much free to do anything I had wanted to do, be it write another book, contribute to open source (as long as it's not GPLed obviously, risks of contamination being what it is)

"contribute to open source (as long as it's not GPLed obviously, risks of contamination being what it is)"

That statement is retarded.

Also, if you so much as started to get real revenue or investment from a research project you did on your own or with friends, or worse friends at work, you would probably be on the receiving end of an investigation from the MS legal team. Would they come up and tell you that you are being investigated? No, they would not.

That's what you have to deal with. Lay in your bed.

C732648723643 said:

blowdart said:

*snip*

"contribute to open source (as long as it's not GPLed obviously, risks of contamination being what it is)"

 

That statement is retarded.

Also, if you so much as started to get real revenue or investment from a research project you did on your own or with friends, or worse friends at work, you would probably be on the receiving end of an investigation from the MS legal team. Would they come up and tell you that you are being investigated? No, they would not.

 

That's what you have to deal with. Lay in your bed.

Ah beer, trying to have a sensible conversation with you is just a lost cause isn't it?

I get to meet the team and check it all out on Tuesday, my second "interview".

I am so excited and pumped for this!

blowdart said:

C732648723643 said:

*snip*

Ah beer, trying to have a sensible conversation with you is just a lost cause isn't it?

I'm not Beer.

PaoloM said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

Seriously?

 

I'd start from an estabilished credit and I'd imagine a $1Mil for that kind of land you're talking about.

 

Really guys, any of you live in the real world? $100K is in the top 2% *worldwide*, it can be a very comfortable life but it certainly doesn't leave room for weird stuff.

 

For example, mortgage: ~$2,400; car: ~$750; cable/internet: $150; food: $600; phone: $70; utilities: $100; 401k: $600; etc etc etc... $5,200/month go away quite fast.

 

On the other hand, Chris is still recovering from sinking his car. We must be kind.

 

PS: Oh yeah, no moonlighting. Forget side businesses in the US.

PS: Oh yeah, no moonlighting. Forget side businesses in the US.

Even if we ignore the whole contractual reasons you may not be able to do such a thing... lord knows one doesn't exactly have much time/energy left for such things... but that's ok, I love what I do and put in the time & energy I do exactly because of that love.

I figured with a $100k/year salary from MSR

You keep assuming that that number is accurate and immediate. I hate to burst your bubble, but you keep assuming that IF you could get such a job (many apply, few are interviewed, even fewer are highbred) that you would get such a salary on day one.

Hell, a buddy of mine (with a PHD) just started last month in a research role in the hardware group and doesn't make 100k, in fact he only makes a couple bucks more than me.

Steve411 said:

I would go work for MS any day. I run a Computer Repair business and that is going good, too. There is a high demand for that here in WA and the profit is just unbelievable. I have been trying to get a Software Engineer position at a good firm and finally have my chance at Triple E technologies in Post Falls, ID (http://www.e3tek.com/).

 

I get to meet the team and check it all out on Tuesday, my second "interview".

 

I am so excited and pumped for this!

 

Well, I wouldn't work for MS -- I prefer working for small, non-bureaucracy-laden companies with little or no middle-management and  where I see the owner/MD every day and call him by his first name.

Plus I don't think I'd pass an MS interview, but that's beside the point. 

This might well be why my salary plateaued a couple of years ago,which I'm in two-minds about:  like where you work versus like what you're paid.

Herbie

dahat said:

PaoloM said:

*snip*

PS: Oh yeah, no moonlighting. Forget side businesses in the US.

Even if we ignore the whole contractual reasons you may not be able to do such a thing... lord knows one doesn't exactly have much time/energy left for such things... but that's ok, I love what I do and put in the time & energy I do exactly because of that love.

I figured with a $100k/year salary from MSR

You keep assuming that that number is accurate and immediate. I hate to burst your bubble, but you keep assuming that IF you could get such a job (many apply, few are interviewed, even fewer are highbred) that you would get such a salary on day one.

 

Hell, a buddy of mine (with a PHD) just started last month in a research role in the hardware group and doesn't make 100k, in fact he only makes a couple bucks more than me.

"Hell, a buddy of mine (with a PHD) just started last month in a research role in the hardware group and doesn't make 100k, in fact he only makes a couple bucks more than me."

That's truly sad. I honestly thought you all worked there because they were paying you really high salaries.

When you see what the company grosses and nets and how much of that the employees get if what you are saying is true, it should make you really mad. MSFT has a huge profit margin in the software industry.

If you wanna make over 100k, just go over to the SF Bay or Socal software/DBA section of Craigslist and apply. Google lists there too.

Get some books on negotiating salaries too. 10 minutes of missed reading will most likely cost you tens of thousands of dollars per year.

The MSFT investors and or the company won't care or know if you got another 20-30k in a salary negotiation. It's not going to hurt anyone. The only one you're hurting is yourself by working for less.

So sad.

C732648723643 said:

dahat said:

*snip*

"Hell, a buddy of mine (with a PHD) just started last month in a research role in the hardware group and doesn't make 100k, in fact he only makes a couple bucks more than me."

 

That's truly sad. I honestly thought you all worked there because they were paying you really high salaries.

When you see what the company grosses and nets and how much of that the employees get if what you are saying is true, it should make you really mad. MSFT has a huge profit margin in the software industry.

 

If you wanna make over 100k, just go over to the SF Bay or Socal software/DBA section of Craigslist and apply. Google lists there too.

Get some books on negotiating salaries too. 10 minutes of missed reading will most likely cost you tens of thousands of dollars per year.

 

The MSFT investors and or the company won't care or know if you got another 20-30k in a salary negotiation. It's not going to hurt anyone. The only one you're hurting is yourself by working for less.

So sad.

Why on earth would I move to the SF Bay area just to make more (ignoring the fact that that would require me to leave a job I love and worked hard to get)? The cost of living increase alone would be far higher than what additional salary one could get by moving … and worst of all… if I did as you suggest... I’d be living in San Francisco (not to mention California)!

While not fond of Washington in many ways... even on its worst days it beats California on the best.

Dr Herbie said:

Steve411 said:

*snip*

Well, I wouldn't work for MS -- I prefer working for small, non-bureaucracy-laden companies with little or no middle-management and  where I see the owner/MD every day and call him by his first name.

 

Plus I don't think I'd pass an MS interview, but that's beside the point. 

 

This might well be why my salary plateaued a couple of years ago,which I'm in two-minds about:  like where you work versus like what you're paid.

 

 

Herbie

Why not work for yourself and have both ?

leeappdalecom said:

Dr Herbie said:

*snip*

Why not work for yourself and have both ?

That's the eventual plan, but now is not the right time (sole breadwinner to provide for wife and two small kids).  Don't fancy contracting because I don't travel well,so I need a product and some customers ...

Herbie

Dr Herbie said:

Steve411 said:

*snip*

Well, I wouldn't work for MS -- I prefer working for small, non-bureaucracy-laden companies with little or no middle-management and  where I see the owner/MD every day and call him by his first name.

 

Plus I don't think I'd pass an MS interview, but that's beside the point. 

 

This might well be why my salary plateaued a couple of years ago,which I'm in two-minds about:  like where you work versus like what you're paid.

 

 

Herbie

You and me sound very similar. I too highly doubt I'd want to work for a large corporation and frankly see my career as progressing through smaller businesses until I get a great idea and start my own.

I hate, HATE, politics, middle management, and silly pointless rules. Plus I like working independently and with technical people rather than "business" people (which is more common in smaller companies).

I might do the contractor thing also - would be nice to set my own hours and get paid for what I do rather than what they feel like paying me for.

Michael Butler said:

If I could work at Microsoft, it would have to be Steve Ballmer's job. No point trying to work my way up

 

 

I know you're being facetious, but this is kinda my problem when it comes to working in a big company. (And unlike others I would like to work in a big company because I know I work best when others are around me.) But what would I actually DO for a big company?

Technically I'm a dev, I have pretty good dev skills, but that's not what I'D bring to a company, it doesn't reflect my personal strengths.

As a person, I bring ideas, like for everything. You want a feature? Sure, give me ten minutes and I'll give you a list of ideas; I'll even give you rough ideas on how to implement them, and how to gradually introduce them if they're a dramatic change. I've got a bit of a reputation for being a original (that's the polite term) thinker, even when I think I'm being pretty conservative.

But in what job would an organization find that skill useful? Short of CEO? It's vexing that MS haven't written asking me to lead them, but what's a guy to do?

blowdart said:

W3bbo said:

*snip*

Yes, but a few people with high salaries will skew the average.

 

MS works with bands, and each band has it's own range. Moving up the lower bands (<62) is mainly a matter of exceeding expectations, but once you get to the level 63 hop it becomes a bit more challenging as your manager has to justify that leap to their peers. 63-64 needs skip level manager agreement, and again is justified with peers.  Mini microsoft has a good explanation/summary.

Wait a minute...level 63? Are you implying that there are 63 (or more) levels of seniority at MS? No wonder they can't get anything done in any respectable amount of time.

spivonious said:

blowdart said:

*snip*

Wait a minute...level 63? Are you implying that there are 63 (or more) levels of seniority at MS? No wonder they can't get anything done in any respectable amount of time.

There aren't 64 levels, it actually starts at 50 and goes up to 70, according to these leaked documents.

Massif said:

Michael Butler said:

*snip*

I know you're being facetious, but this is kinda my problem when it comes to working in a big company. (And unlike others I would like to work in a big company because I know I work best when others are around me.) But what would I actually DO for a big company?

 

Technically I'm a dev, I have pretty good dev skills, but that's not what I'D bring to a company, it doesn't reflect my personal strengths.

 

As a person, I bring ideas, like for everything. You want a feature? Sure, give me ten minutes and I'll give you a list of ideas; I'll even give you rough ideas on how to implement them, and how to gradually introduce them if they're a dramatic change. I've got a bit of a reputation for being a original (that's the polite term) thinker, even when I think I'm being pretty conservative.

 

But in what job would an organization find that skill useful? Short of CEO? It's vexing that MS haven't written asking me to lead them, but what's a guy to do?

 

That sounds like the perfect PM position at Microsoft

W3bbo said:

spivonious said:

*snip*

There aren't 64 levels, it actually starts at 50 and goes up to 70, according to these leaked documents.

MS pays at the 65th percentile for the role and experience.  This is widely documented on the internets.  As for levels, you NEVER see a developer at less than 59.  There aren't 20 levels.

100K isn't "rich", but you don't have to worry about money.  The benefits are great too (again, not the best on the planet, but it is hard to beat the healthcare anywhere in the US).  Also, that talk is about base salary.  Bonus and stock for good performance can make that much more. 

MS pays for performance.  A Phd who proves they can deliver more than a person with a BS will quickly make much more money then the person with the BS, even if they start with similar salary.  If the person with the BS can deliver more than a person with a PhD, that will be reflected in the pay as well.  As a person who has PhD's and Masters and BS educated employees working for me over the years, there isn't a direct correlation to getting things done and adding customer value. After getting hired into a product group (MSR may be different), your education isn't nearly as imporant as delivering high quality results.  If your education helps you do that, more power to you, but I gaurantee that your education plays no direct role during review time.