Channel 9 Forums - Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love http://mschnlnine.vo.llnwd.net/d1/Dev/App_Themes/C9/images/feedimage.png Channel 9 Forums - Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums Channel 9 keeps you up to date with the latest news and behind the scenes info from Microsoft that developers love to keep up with. From LINQ to SilverLight – Watch videos and hear about all the cool technologies coming and the people behind them. http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums en Sun, 19 May 2013 16:53:54 GMT Sun, 19 May 2013 16:53:54 GMT Rev9 38 -38 -1 Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love Ive decided to make this SP2 fullscreen thing it's own thread, as I really really don't want to see it removed ( by SP2 ).

From my past posts Im sure many can tell I havent been too.. amused to date by SP2, but I realise the need for it, and in all honesty - I do think 97% of it is great.  It's that last 3% that irks me - the main one being removal of Kiosk mode ( no status bar / no toolbar.)

I also no many programmers here - for their own reasons - and past bad experiences - do not like IE to be able to run fullscreen.

I agree that SP2 should stop auto-launching fullscreen - or add some type of close toolbar so user can get out.

What i cant agree too, and the reason for this thread/post is - as ive said many times before - the ABILITY to use this feature - that Internet Explorer did HANDS DOWN BETTER AND FAR ABOVE ANY OTHER IMPLIMENTATION out there.

Please Please Please Microsoft, LIMIT the launching of - but not the access to full screen in IE.

I LOVE to make full screen interfaces - complete with my OWN media tuners, my OWN browsers and my OWN starbar and desktop icons..

Sample:




I beg of you to not DESTROY my creations with:

1 - the status bar ( this appears even if i have status bar OFF in regular explorer windows)
It seems totally pointless as you cant use this to close the Window in question - its just sitting there with its little  "E" icon on one side - and "Internet" icon on the other. Double clicking the "e" does nothing.  Double clicking the Internet icons opens Security properties.. still not allowing the closing of the window in question.

2. The new SP2 top "MOZILLA STYLE" bar - with URL and Red X. Please AXE this abomination. It's almost the equivilant of the "New Coke"  * why try to be like pepsi when youre coke!  FULL SCREEN i take to mean..errr.. FULL SCREEN.  Is there a work around?

In closing - I request - no I BEG - you do some checks with SP2 installed at my site
www.grininc.ca

Writer / Search + all the Desktops - download or run online.  One last note is that NOT ONE OF THESE PAGES ERRORED before service pack 2.  Also - all the interface desktops wherein the "Startbar" is positioned at bottom "0" have now all moved around due to the tweaks to SP2... as well as I use many many many inline framesw building this stuff - try editing locally - AARRGG!  Allow Allow Allow nag nag nag.

Lastly - to all programers - before biting my head off - i ask you - They have already stopped all AUTO FULL SCREEN WINDOWS from happening - thats Fine.

But I should be able to USE one if my USER Accepts clicking the "View Fullscreen" link

( example here:  www.jgrant.com/grin/search.htm  )

Thus ends my heart felt request for MS to not remove my favourite feature of Internet Explorer.

Thank you for your time.

jamie






]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/8422#8422 Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:53:54 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/8422#8422 me 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/jamie/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love Thread number - 10,000,000 + 1

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/f3e8cdbf45b443de8f219dea011c5f7a#f3e8cdbf45b443de8f219dea011c5f7a Tue, 01 Jun 2004 01:01:56 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/f3e8cdbf45b443de8f219dea011c5f7a#f3e8cdbf45b443de8f219dea011c5f7a Manip 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Manip/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love Disclaimer: I don't know for sure why this change was made.
Having said that, I'll bet you dollars to donuts that it's to stop "phishing" attacks that create fake web sites, right down to fake UI features. With IE features that are always present on screen, no matter what, it becomes that much harder to create a fake site.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/ed8f18fcc3e74be6be669dea011c5fa4#ed8f18fcc3e74be6be669dea011c5fa4 Tue, 01 Jun 2004 01:09:16 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/ed8f18fcc3e74be6be669dea011c5fa4#ed8f18fcc3e74be6be669dea011c5fa4 jonathanh 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/jonathanh/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love re "With IE features that are always present on screen.."

well if thats the case - could you make them smaller - and match more sites?..

just black so it blends in with the outside monitor screen colour? - or perhaps make it use CSS like the current ie scrollbars can.. then we could at least make it match what we are doing  (designers)



that said.. i think it works great now - ( everyone i know uses it at board meetings and presentations - to show off artwork or ads or ideas.. they want it like powerpoint, no bar. 

Even locally it now has the status bar.
Perhaps I just need to hear every reason why, what was done, was done. I think there was not enough thought put into what you are removing - only what you are preventing. To me - removing kiosk mode is as fundamental as removing thumbnail view - or some other great & useful feature. ** Ben Slivka where are you! Wink
 
Trivia:  Here's a sample of what I use to bug Ben and Chris Jones with in IE3+/4 era
www.graphicjam.com/ideas

*yes ..ive always been like this Wink

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/6237fa0a81a24b80aa6c9dea011c5fd5#6237fa0a81a24b80aa6c9dea011c5fd5 Tue, 01 Jun 2004 05:01:52 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/6237fa0a81a24b80aa6c9dea011c5fd5#6237fa0a81a24b80aa6c9dea011c5fd5 me 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/jamie/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love Jamie, I must say right now, I'm REALLY, REALLY sick of seeing you complain about the removal of something that that Microsoft should have been sued for creating.

Anyone up for creating an IE plugin that specifically disables full screen modes from ever being done in older versions of IE? I'd be interested in one.

jonathanh wrote:
Disclaimer: I don't know for sure why this change was made.
Having said that, I'll bet you dollars to donuts that it's to stop "phishing" attacks that create fake web sites, right down to fake UI features. With IE features that are always present on screen, no matter what, it becomes that much harder to create a fake site.


It was easy to trick people into thinking that they were in Windows (giving away personal information) or trap people in a full screen mode.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/ba40f17a643a417c819a9dea011c6001#ba40f17a643a417c819a9dea011c6001 Tue, 01 Jun 2004 10:16:48 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/ba40f17a643a417c819a9dea011c6001#ba40f17a643a417c819a9dea011c6001 Shining Arcanine 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Shining Arcanine/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love Agreed that it's been abused, but it's also been used really, really, really well in millions of other cases.

The problem is that it is actually a feature which has become used, even if it was never intended to be used as such, in kiosks, applications, presentations, communiques, intranets, etc.

Simply saying "it's insecure" doesn't cut it. Sorry, that doesn't wash. As a developer, designer and all around IT guy, cutting out a feature because it's insecure shows a lack of ingenuity. Are you saying MS can solve the spam issue, but can't give us a fullscreen mode in IE? It's just too damn complicated? Wink

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/ed416dcdfd554f10b34c9dea011c602d#ed416dcdfd554f10b34c9dea011c602d Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:10:29 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/ed416dcdfd554f10b34c9dea011c602d#ed416dcdfd554f10b34c9dea011c602d Jeremy W 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love Wouldn't it be possible just to write your own Kiosk software, and embed the Internet Explorer activex control for rendering the page? Of  course it would still need to be downloaded, but it doesn't have to be big (you could either use VB6 or VB.NET, but both may require an additional download - VB6 less likely as the VBRuntime is often installed already)

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/0d18f599385b4454b09c9dea011c6058#0d18f599385b4454b09c9dea011c6058 Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:59:29 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/0d18f599385b4454b09c9dea011c6058#0d18f599385b4454b09c9dea011c6058 sbc 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/sbc/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love HTML was never meant to replace a Graphical User Interface.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/aae2e8cd71fb4d43a6339dea011c6082#aae2e8cd71fb4d43a6339dea011c6082 Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:16:08 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/aae2e8cd71fb4d43a6339dea011c6082#aae2e8cd71fb4d43a6339dea011c6082 ZippyV 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/ZippyV/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love
Jeremy W. wrote:
Agreed that it's been abused, but it's also been used really, really, really well in millions of other cases.


I've seen it used well once. One time. And I wouldn't mind seeing a toolbar. But I've cursed about 50 sites over the years that abuse it. The usage of kiosk mode never became as popular as predicted.

I'm glad the little bugger is gone. 

From time to time new versions of other people's software kills our babies. That's part of life. I'm sure that happens even internally with Microsoft when the compiler teams fix something and the Office team says "hey, wtf...?". 

So, get another browser. Learn Visual Basic. Don't install SP2. Deal with it. Smiley

/Lars.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/88cfb1ab1a28471e851c9dea011c60ae#88cfb1ab1a28471e851c9dea011c60ae Tue, 01 Jun 2004 17:26:42 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/88cfb1ab1a28471e851c9dea011c60ae#88cfb1ab1a28471e851c9dea011c60ae lars 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/lars/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love
sbc wrote:
Wouldn't it be possible just to write your own Kiosk software, and embed the Internet Explorer activex control for rendering the page? Of  course it would still need to be downloaded, but it doesn't have to be big (you could either use VB6 or VB.NET, but both may require an additional download - VB6 less likely as the VBRuntime is often installed already)


Yeah it is, however, the DHTML implementation that Jamie thinks he/she has the right to use is insecure and can be used to do alot of nasty things. It is impossible for Microsoft to prevent it from being abused (I never liked it in the first place) and the (this is an educated estimate) 99.999% abuse rate of their nonstandard feature (does anyone ever wonder why it never became a W3C standard?) in itself says what needs to be done.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/c3ded2756023475097339dea011c60da#c3ded2756023475097339dea011c60da Tue, 01 Jun 2004 20:04:25 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/c3ded2756023475097339dea011c60da#c3ded2756023475097339dea011c60da Shining Arcanine 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Shining Arcanine/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love I suppose Kiosk mode will still work as it has done before in Windows 2000? I wonder how much work is being done on it, as many people still use it. Perhaps SP2 is a way of getting people to upgrade Windows 2000?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/76ed494a9b754541be709dea011c6106#76ed494a9b754541be709dea011c6106 Tue, 01 Jun 2004 20:08:45 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/76ed494a9b754541be709dea011c6106#76ed494a9b754541be709dea011c6106 sbc 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/sbc/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love
sbc wrote:
I suppose Kiosk mode will still work as it has done before in Windows 2000? I wonder how much work is being done on it, as many people still use it. Perhaps SP2 is a way of getting people to upgrade Windows 2000?


This feature is utilized the same way popups are utilized, in ways that people don't like. I'm glad Microsoft is removing it, why you aren't is and will probably forever be a mystery to me.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/936e3c53e275443d92ba9dea011c6131#936e3c53e275443d92ba9dea011c6131 Tue, 01 Jun 2004 20:17:27 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/936e3c53e275443d92ba9dea011c6131#936e3c53e275443d92ba9dea011c6131 Shining Arcanine 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Shining Arcanine/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love Actually I don't like Kiosk mode really and use Firefox instead of IE most of the time. Popups should never really be used (if it can be helped) - some cases where it might be OK is help windows, or popups for images.

The suggestion was just for people that like Kiosk mode in MSIE - it is better to write your own Kiosk software rather than use Internet Explorer.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/f8b8101550564e2b88b09dea011c615c#f8b8101550564e2b88b09dea011c615c Tue, 01 Jun 2004 20:29:22 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/f8b8101550564e2b88b09dea011c615c#f8b8101550564e2b88b09dea011c615c sbc 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/sbc/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love [quote user="sbc"The suggestion was just for people that like Kiosk mode in MSIE - it is better to write your own Kiosk software rather than use Internet Explorer.
[/quote]

I'll second that.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/cfbf9e8116ec4d4d99969dea011c6186#cfbf9e8116ec4d4d99969dea011c6186 Tue, 01 Jun 2004 20:39:49 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/cfbf9e8116ec4d4d99969dea011c6186#cfbf9e8116ec4d4d99969dea011c6186 Shining Arcanine 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Shining Arcanine/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love Is kiosk mode being disabled for "HTML Applications"?  This is the main place that I can see the real usefulness of IE's kiosk mode.  Some people actually use this feature for kiosks.  It would be a shame to lose that functionality.


Full screen mode while browsing the Internet?  That should certainly only be UP TO ME... not the site author.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/9c09858e2e3a4d3cac059dea011c61b1#9c09858e2e3a4d3cac059dea011c61b1 Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:26:11 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/9c09858e2e3a4d3cac059dea011c61b1#9c09858e2e3a4d3cac059dea011c61b1 jmutchek 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/jmutchek/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love re: Full screen mode while browsing the Internet?  That should certainly only be UP TO ME... not the site author."

And with SP2 it will be = NO MORE AUTO fullscreen - but they have gone a step further and removed the ability for YOU TO CHOOSE if you actually WANT fullscreen ( presentation, Media tuner what not)

Assuming you want fullscreen, you now have a totally unthought implimentation regarding - the status bar ( see above ) and the Mozilla bar at the top


Ill summarise quickly:

1. no auto full screen fine

2. choosing fullscreen is now NOT fullscreen

3. the status bar is UGLY - make it black and unnoticable - or better yet LOOSE it

4. the top bar - from http URL now shows mozilla CRAPPY toolbar - instead of sleek - autohidable one we've all used for 6 years

* Html Applications still function fullscreen - but the user must go through a prompt, and HTA's seem to disable javascript ( like the history (-1) (+1) etc

so for me - as a non programmer - but that does no alot of scripts and dhtml ( for interface layer interactions) they dont fix my request:

LEAVE FULL SCREEN EXACTLY AS IT IS - JUST STOP AUTO LOADING - OR AT LEAST MAKE THE BAR ONLY ONE
(not 2 ) AND MAKE IT MATCH!

thanks again

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/482fd78bfbf442f482889dea011c61e1#482fd78bfbf442f482889dea011c61e1 Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:45:49 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/482fd78bfbf442f482889dea011c61e1#482fd78bfbf442f482889dea011c61e1 me 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/jamie/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love By the way, this isn't a feature, it is a security risk. This thread should be called:


"IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a security risk I love"

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/01cef5419fb44a1b96779dea011c620b#01cef5419fb44a1b96779dea011c620b Thu, 03 Jun 2004 21:20:28 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/01cef5419fb44a1b96779dea011c620b#01cef5419fb44a1b96779dea011c620b Shining Arcanine 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Shining Arcanine/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love
Shining Arcanine wrote:
By the way, this isn't a feature, it is a security risk. This thread should be called:


"IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a security risk I love"


It's a feature as soon as someone uses it as such.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/65a4117c5d16415bad5c9dea011c6236#65a4117c5d16415bad5c9dea011c6236 Thu, 03 Jun 2004 23:45:35 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/65a4117c5d16415bad5c9dea011c6236#65a4117c5d16415bad5c9dea011c6236 Jeremy W 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love
Jeremy W. wrote:
Shining Arcanine wrote: By the way, this isn't a feature, it is a security risk. This thread should be called:


"IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a security risk I love"


It's a feature as soon as someone uses it as such.


I consider it a risk as it is absurdly easy to trick someone to give away private information.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/8c77abab6cd84ac49c389dea011c6261#8c77abab6cd84ac49c389dea011c6261 Thu, 03 Jun 2004 23:53:03 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/8c77abab6cd84ac49c389dea011c6261#8c77abab6cd84ac49c389dea011c6261 Shining Arcanine 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Shining Arcanine/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love ..guys.. (gals?) i really am just stating:  i love fullscreen - feature / BUG haha whatever it is.

it does not deserve to be AXED.

And for all the OSS pros out there, the removal of fullscreen = less FREEDOM within the win interface..  use it or not - like it or not - at least shout out on the removal: FREEDOM grab

Not that there is a conspiracy.. they wanted to  lock stuff down tight - and they did. but maybe...just maybe..they did not leave enough time to think out how to retain an important feature.. ( to some Smiley

hope someones at least questioning...

if its gone...its gone  oh well

BTW: SA / Manip:  you guys no a good mozilla programer that could re-write the "old" way into a custom FireFox? lol Wink

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/cd434cb65d004f2f89439dea011c6290#cd434cb65d004f2f89439dea011c6290 Fri, 04 Jun 2004 06:05:32 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/cd434cb65d004f2f89439dea011c6290#cd434cb65d004f2f89439dea011c6290 me 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/jamie/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love
Shining Arcanine wrote:
Jeremy W. wrote:
Shining Arcanine wrote: By the way, this isn't a feature, it is a security risk. This thread should be called:


"IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a security risk I love"


It's a feature as soon as someone uses it as such.


I consider it a risk as it is absurdly easy to trick someone to give away private information.


Repeating what I said earlier: are you saying there is NO way to make fullscreen webapps that are insecure? If MS can solve the millions of problems they solve every year, you don't think they can make a secure fullscreen system? Sounds dodgy to me.

I realise they have to choose what features get ported, but I'm with Jamie, just becuase it isn't implemented properly, doesn't mean it isn't a feature that should be protected.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/7b9668331c1d453dabe99dea011c62be#7b9668331c1d453dabe99dea011c62be Fri, 04 Jun 2004 13:51:18 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/7b9668331c1d453dabe99dea011c62be#7b9668331c1d453dabe99dea011c62be Jeremy W 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love If we let people make fullscreen webapps, it is trivially easy for them to also make phishing webapps. There is no way around this - you have to make it "not quite fullscreen" and include some permanent visual element. 

Jamie is complaining that permanent visual elements are ugly. Well, yes. That's the whole point. People notice them, and realize that they're not actually logging in to their Citibank account

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/e6a924e3f97041cc8a969dea011c62ea#e6a924e3f97041cc8a969dea011c62ea Fri, 04 Jun 2004 18:06:32 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/e6a924e3f97041cc8a969dea011c62ea#e6a924e3f97041cc8a969dea011c62ea jonathanh 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/jonathanh/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love I realise that. I'm just not convinced that there isn't a way around it. I just can't believe that ActiveX can be made 'secure' through user-input, and a full-screen mode can't.

I mean, worst case, prompt for it, you know what I mean? I'm sorry, but we have 4 apps here in our hospital that are web-based and use full-screen mode: auto-patient triage, 2 thin-client apps and a reporting app in cardiology.

I understand the issue with phising, that's not something I've argued this whole thread, I just don't think the feature needs to be eliminated in order for the web experience to be secure. There are always options.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/dce72f9a07e04cda87289dea011c6319#dce72f9a07e04cda87289dea011c6319 Fri, 04 Jun 2004 18:22:04 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/dce72f9a07e04cda87289dea011c6319#dce72f9a07e04cda87289dea011c6319 Jeremy W 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love But you can still make "almost fullscreen" right? So it's basicly an aesthetic problem?

/Lars.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/2ef0be40776e4a20907a9dea011c6343#2ef0be40776e4a20907a9dea011c6343 Fri, 04 Jun 2004 18:28:05 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/2ef0be40776e4a20907a9dea011c6343#2ef0be40776e4a20907a9dea011c6343 lars 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/lars/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love Uh, no, if 'almost fullscreen' allows users to click on stuff, then it might as well not be 'almost fullscreen' at all. The point of going into fullscreen mode is taht all of the options users have are presented to them, and nothing else.

I realise this is the thing with phishing too, but this is a legitimate usage. One where we have no problem with popups / confirmations / warnings, because we'd just do that before deploying it to the user. If the user can go to non-fullscreen mode, click the start button, etc, it shoots the whole concept in the foot.

edit: sorry, that was more flippant than I meant it to be. From my perspective there is no reason that any security concerns couldn't be bypassed by letting the user know some simple facts:

- current website address
- if this is a 'signed' fullscreen page (c'mon, if we can make ActiveX 'secure', surely we can make a fullscreen webpage secure)
- if it's an 'unsigned' fullscreen page, popup the warning every [x] minutes/seconds

I dunno, I guess this just seems like an awareness / training issue to me, and removing what is a feature doesn't seem like the best course of action (to me). I'm not saying you guys are wrong about the security risks, I just don't agree with the ultimate decision.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/d895340a7c7f43ed82c29dea011c6372#d895340a7c7f43ed82c29dea011c6372 Fri, 04 Jun 2004 18:42:06 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/d895340a7c7f43ed82c29dea011c6372#d895340a7c7f43ed82c29dea011c6372 Jeremy W 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love
Jeremy W. wrote:

I realise this is the thing with phishing too, but this is a legitimate usage. One where we have no problem with popups / confirmations / warnings, because we'd just do that before deploying it to the user. If the user can go to non-fullscreen mode, click the start button, etc, it shoots the whole concept in the foot.


In that case, you need a native app or HTA, not a normal web page / browser expirience.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/56ec615a41014218a0e39dea011c639e#56ec615a41014218a0e39dea011c639e Fri, 04 Jun 2004 18:48:06 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/56ec615a41014218a0e39dea011c639e#56ec615a41014218a0e39dea011c639e object88 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/object88/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love No I don't. The feature is currently available. The cost to pay an app developer is 3 times what it is to pay a web developer. Why should I have to worry about all the language issues when an HTML page with a slight backend is more than enough?

Nobody has answered me on why a simple dialog wouldn't suffice to deal with the phishing threat. ActiveX controls could literally fry a computer, but it's enough in that case.

Maybe I'm off base, but I just don't see the difference. If protection can be there for something that can fry your computer, but not for something like fullscreen mode it just seems odd.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/e894cbd5f9c64a23a7f99dea011c63ca#e894cbd5f9c64a23a7f99dea011c63ca Fri, 04 Jun 2004 19:00:01 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/e894cbd5f9c64a23a7f99dea011c63ca#e894cbd5f9c64a23a7f99dea011c63ca Jeremy W 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love
Jeremy W. wrote:

Nobody has answered me on why a simple dialog wouldn't suffice to deal with the phishing threat. ActiveX controls could literally fry a computer, but it's enough in that case.


I'm going to take a stab at this, but frankly I don't have a great answer. 

Let's say you have a IE popup that says "Click OK if you want to switch to full-screen".  Now, assume that a popular website wants to go fullscreen (like your hospital apps).  It would be annoying from a user point of view to have to click OK everytime that website was navigated to.  I suppose IE could include a whitelist feature for OK'ed sites, but considering how long its taken IE to get a popup blocker, I imagine there wasn't enough time for such an effort.

Considering the number of people who install any random software on their machine, its not surprising that MS would make an extra effort to prevent this kind of measure.  I strongly believe that there are people who will happily click "OK" on whatever dialog comes up to get to Foo.com, because their buddy said to check it out.

Of course, that kinda shoots down my own native app / HTA argument, doesn't it?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/04d66aaf2d40432483109dea011c63f8#04d66aaf2d40432483109dea011c63f8 Fri, 04 Jun 2004 19:42:04 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/04d66aaf2d40432483109dea011c63f8#04d66aaf2d40432483109dea011c63f8 object88 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/object88/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love See, the thing is that most legitimate uses of fullscreen are in an app setting. Sure, some web designers like jamie (no offence Jamie, I'll get to this in a second) use it for general purpose websites. For us, though, it's quite critical to these apps.

If a user had to click "OK" every time they navigated to the page which launched into fullscreen mode, that would be perfectly fine for us. Why? Because a user would never do it. IT folk would when we setup the kiosk / thin-client interface.

Also, I'm not sure that a "always trust site [x]" would be that difficult. Again, it was possible with ActiveX, right?

I'm really not trying to push too hard on this, I just don't see this as an insurmountable problem, and when I know of at least 5,000 end users who would be affected by this, just in our regional health authority, I know that there are others who would be as well.

To me, this just isn't as simple as "well, there's phishing, so we can't allow fullscreen mode".

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/01bff3fed47a46a1b9a89dea011c6426#01bff3fed47a46a1b9a89dea011c6426 Fri, 04 Jun 2004 19:54:18 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/01bff3fed47a46a1b9a89dea011c6426#01bff3fed47a46a1b9a89dea011c6426 Jeremy W 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love Unfortunately I think that Microsoft has learned from email attachments that user education just isn't enough. You can tell people not to do it till they're blue in the face, and a significant fraction of them will still open dangerous attachments - or, equivalently, click OK to allow a phishing site to go full-screen.

Your point about trusted sites is a good one, though. And another question - has your hospital tried their web apps under XP SP2 yet? Does it break them?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/ebcc98a932db4ef0a45a9dea011c6452#ebcc98a932db4ef0a45a9dea011c6452 Fri, 04 Jun 2004 20:43:52 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/ebcc98a932db4ef0a45a9dea011c6452#ebcc98a932db4ef0a45a9dea011c6452 jonathanh 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/jonathanh/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love We haven't done any upgrading to XP SP2. Hell, we're not getting off 95 until the end of the year and 98 until next summer. It'll be a while before we get to SP2.

In fact, we only have 50 XP machines (compared to 1200 2000 machines). Most of those are in C&IS (Communications and Information Services: IT and Phones). I doubt we'll actually make a move to XP. Based on Longhorn's timeline, I expect we'll be recommending an upgrade to that in late 2007, early 2008 (give or take). Mainly depending on when 2000 support runs out.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/fe8413f373fa4c1bb1e69dea011c647d#fe8413f373fa4c1bb1e69dea011c647d Fri, 04 Jun 2004 20:50:00 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/fe8413f373fa4c1bb1e69dea011c647d#fe8413f373fa4c1bb1e69dea011c647d Jeremy W 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love
Jeremy W. wrote:
Repeating what I said earlier: are you saying there is NO way to make fullscreen webapps that are insecure? If MS can solve the millions of problems they solve every year, you don't think they can make a secure fullscreen system? Sounds dodgy to me.


ActiveX, which has to be made by the web developer.

Jeremy W. wrote:
I realise that. I'm just not convinced that there isn't a way around it. I just can't believe that ActiveX can be made 'secure' through user-input, and a full-screen mode can't.

I mean, worst case, prompt for it, you know what I mean? I'm sorry, but we have 4 apps here in our hospital that are web-based and use full-screen mode: auto-patient triage, 2 thin-client apps and a reporting app in cardiology.

I understand the issue with phising, that's not something I've argued this whole thread, I just don't think the feature needs to be eliminated in order for the web experience to be secure. There are always options.


Full screen is something that SHOULD NEVER be utilizable by webpages. If you want to create an internet application that takes over the entire screen, you already said what you need to use... ActiveX. Now stop complaining about something that makes the world a better place.

Jeremy W. wrote:
See, the thing is that most legitimate uses of fullscreen are in an app setting. Sure, some web designers like jamie (no offence Jamie, I'll get to this in a second) use it for general purpose websites. For us, though, it's quite critical to these apps.


If it is needed in an application setting, why don't you learn .NET and code one?

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/a70c1e1560a34a0897769dea011c64af#a70c1e1560a34a0897769dea011c64af Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:08:39 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/a70c1e1560a34a0897769dea011c64af#a70c1e1560a34a0897769dea011c64af Shining Arcanine 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Shining Arcanine/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love Re: Learn .NET and code one

Jeremy W. said it best:
" The cost to pay an app developer is 3 times what it is to pay a web developer. Why should I have to worry about all the language issues when an HTML page with a slight backend is more than enough?"




]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/25efd0dcd2804423ae129dea011c64da#25efd0dcd2804423ae129dea011c64da Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:34:41 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/25efd0dcd2804423ae129dea011c64da#25efd0dcd2804423ae129dea011c64da me 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/jamie/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love Look at it this way Jamie; this is your chance to tripple your income! Smiley

Won't XAML give you the best of both worlds - declaring an application GUI using XML based markup?

/Lars.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/51b422d0e85e4a0db5569dea011c6504#51b422d0e85e4a0db5569dea011c6504 Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:46:01 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/51b422d0e85e4a0db5569dea011c6504#51b422d0e85e4a0db5569dea011c6504 lars 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/lars/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love
jamie wrote:
Re: Learn .NET and code one

Jeremy W. said it best:
" The cost to pay an app developer is 3 times what it is to pay a web developer. Why should I have to worry about all the language issues when an HTML page with a slight backend is more than enough?"


It never was supposed to be possible and never should have been. Microsoft should have been sued for implementing the capability.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/9de01ea3b0ff435da6bb9dea011c652e#9de01ea3b0ff435da6bb9dea011c652e Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:53:50 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/9de01ea3b0ff435da6bb9dea011c652e#9de01ea3b0ff435da6bb9dea011c652e Shining Arcanine 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Shining Arcanine/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love Except that, at the time, NS also allowed it. You can argue that it's a security risk all you like, and I'll agree with you. I'm not entirely sure how you'd propose that I create a fullscreen ActiveX application inside IE, if IE can't be fullscreen though.

I'm quite comfortable developing apps, but the fact of the matter is that there ARE legitimate uses for thise outside of applications, and outside of phishing.

Abuse doens't mean a feature is bad.

I'm also unsure why you feel this was "never supposed to be possible". You'll need to fill me in on this one.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/d313f21b2cf24bb9bba09dea011c655a#d313f21b2cf24bb9bba09dea011c655a Fri, 04 Jun 2004 22:10:17 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/d313f21b2cf24bb9bba09dea011c655a#d313f21b2cf24bb9bba09dea011c655a Jeremy W 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love I'm quite comfortable in PHP, ASP, JS, VB.NET, C#, C++, Java, Turbo Pascal (Delphi) and several smaller languages. My comfort and my ability to program don't change the fact that this is a useful feature.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/bfb53e82a8af433798cb9dea011c6584#bfb53e82a8af433798cb9dea011c6584 Fri, 04 Jun 2004 22:11:37 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/bfb53e82a8af433798cb9dea011c6584#bfb53e82a8af433798cb9dea011c6584 Jeremy W 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Jeremy W/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - IE KIOSK Mode: Fighting for a feature I love re; netscape

im assuming youre refering to (i think it was called) Constellation - the full screen NN desktop replacement


that was ALMOST cool - but if i remember correctly they made it too hard for regular designers to do anything with it


IE made this all simple

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/107a6720b923453b84b39dea011c65af#107a6720b923453b84b39dea011c65af Fri, 04 Jun 2004 22:16:13 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/8422-IE-KIOSK-Mode-Fighting-for-a-feature-I-love/107a6720b923453b84b39dea011c65af#107a6720b923453b84b39dea011c65af me 38 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/jamie/Discussions/RSS