Are You a Citizen or Are You A Terrorist?

London Bombers Died In Blasts

The article wrote:

Personal documents of four suspected bombers were found near the bomb scenes of the London terror attacks, police have said.

All four suspected bombers died during the attacks, police suspect.

The men travelled down from west Yorkshire and arrived at Kings Cross station shortly before the attacks were launched on Thursday morning and their images were captured by CCTV cameras.

One man has just been arrested in west Yorkshire in connection with the attacks.

Sky News crime correspondent Martin Brunt said three bombers died in separate Tube attacks and one was killed in the No 30 bus blast.

Detectives believe all four were British citizens, Brunt said.

First off, why would a bomber carry personal document before blowing up a bus?  Wouldn't that get blown up in a bomb blast, especially if they were the ones carrying the bomb? Sounds like planted evidence.

Second, why do I have the feeling that now any citizen will be considered a "potential terrorist"?  Which opens the door for a whole lot of new, invasive laws...couple that with the ID card thing, and it's a perfect match. Made in h*ll.

billh wrote:

First off, why would a bomber carry personal document before blowing up a bus?  Wouldn't that get blown up in a bomb blast, especially if they were the ones carrying the bomb? Sounds like planted evidence.

Probably the same reason the detonator survives a bomb explosion: explosions get stronger a little bit away from the explosive device itself, as the waves collide, amplify, etc.

That's just a guess though, IANAEE.

IIRC they also found a terrorists passport in 1 of the towers.

Blatantly planted.

Well, according to Police Quest 2, terrorists are easily recognized because they carry a "how to make your own bomb" manual (which you can then follow in reverse to disarm said bomb).

Sven Groot wrote:

Police Quest 2

Old school.

OK, conspiracy theory here:

What if you, the terrorist, ran a courier company.  You run it for 6 months or so and once you get established, you send your crew off on 4 different deliveries with cell-phone/pager triggered detonators attached to payloads....

They wouldn't know they were being sacrificed.

W3bbo wrote:

Sven Groot wrote: Police Quest 2

Old school.

What the hell's that guy doing? How can he have only 3 points and be at the airport? You don't need to be at the airport until much later in the game.

Old school, yes. But still cool.

EDIT: if you can't see his image, drag the link to the address bar.

BenZila wrote:

IIRC they also found a terrorists passport in 1 of the towers.

Blatantly planted.

Do you have a link for that?

Edit: my point was that in the "past" the terrorists were typically portrayed as "foreigners" with passports or illegal immigrants.  If what they found on the subways and buses is indeed correct, then that represents a fundamental shift in the origins of potential future major-terrorist-network bombers. I'm not talking about "homegrown" copycat bombers, though.

I only mentioned the "planting of evidence" thing as a "conspiracy theory" angle.  Whatever the case, because the bombers were actual "citizens" as opposed to immigrants, I would think it would make things even more difficult on the people who are citizens of a country because now they will be under even more scrutiny.  Hope I'm wrong.

Put away the tin hats people!

Here is what has been released on what happened to day so far.

billh wrote:

Second, why do I have the feeling that now any citizen will be considered a "potential terrorist"?

Only yesterday I read that the London attack has kicked the EU Data Retention proposal into high gear. Why just watch the people you suspect is up to something when you can watch everyone. Nothing makes people cooperate like fear.

I doubt its planted evidence.

Look at the facts.  These terrorists were appalling.  Awful at their "job".  Caused about as much terror and panic as a weather forecast (the next day people were "slightly nervous" about using the tube - and this is different from a normal day, how?).

Their planning was awful.  They started their attack from Luton station, for crying out loud - which meant they'd have to ride Thameslink into London.  I'm not actually sure which is more dangerous:  holding a bomb or riding Thameslink trains.  Then, just to make sure the police have an easy job, they got together inside King's Cross in front of a CCTV camera to discuss their plans.  And then, when they actually set the bombs, they sat there and thought "one more thing I had to do....what was it again?...oh, that's right, run awa....".

So, yes, for the fact we have awful terrorists, I fully expect them to be carrying "How to make bombs" manuals, their passport, pieces of paper with a little map on it and it saying in big letters "MAP TO OSAMA'S PLACE", little tape recordings of their plans and the names and address of anyone who was involved.

The only part where them being British citizens, becomes important, is that we need to send a memo to Lord Coe with the message:  "British not very good as Setting Bombs - do not include as a sport for London 2012".

lars wrote:

billh wrote: Second, why do I have the feeling that now any citizen will be considered a "potential terrorist"?

Only yesterday I read that the London attack has kicked the EU Data Retention proposal into high gear. Why just watch the people you suspect is up to something when you can watch everyone. Nothing makes people cooperate like fear.

The timing is odd, no?

Tensor's article wrote:

All four were captured on CCTV at King's Cross station, wearing rucksacks, shortly before 0830 BST on the morning of the attacks. The footage was found on Monday night

What brand of rucksack?!  All those who carry rucksacks must now be searched.

Or all those carrying almanacs.

And ball point pens.

And all those who have paper clips and who have bought twine in the past six months.

I'm both!

I'm a terrorist if littering is a capital crime.
Steve.

a simple old saying:

(If someone is looking for it they will find it)

Governments around the world collect so much information they can't swift through it unless they are looking for something specific. 

On the ID or other personal information, you need it in case a cop or other law enforcement officer asks for it.  Fake ID or Real ID it all can be traced.

Now government trying to be more intrusive in our lives let me answer that with a question.  When are Governments not trying to take over more of our lives????

Steve411 wrote:

I'm both!

I'm a terrorist if littering is a capital crime.

In Singapore it sure is.

billh wrote:

Edit: my point was that in the "past" the terrorists were typically portrayed as "foreigners"

You are correct. If you look though history you will find that the vast majority of recent (30yrs) terrorist attacks are from local born individuals. Just about every bomb that is set off in Iraq is by an Iraqi national despite what Fox News tells you.  

billh wrote:

First off, why would a bomber carry personal document before blowing up a bus? 

Did it occur to you that maybe they WANT people to know their names? What is the point in dying in a noble cause if nobody is going to sing songs about you after you're dead? I know if I was doing a suicide bombing I would want everyone to know who I am and why I did it.

Also the UK government has a long history of saying "We can't reveal where we received this information" they have no need to plant evidence, they would just use the same line again and get away with it.

W3bbo wrote:

Steve411 wrote:I'm both! I'm a terrorist if littering is a capital crime.

In Singapore it sure is.

Good it feels good to be able to chew gum and throw the wrappers on the ground.

hehe.
Steve.

This is pretty scary: Who's Watching the Watch List?