First, there was a Flash update. Stupid installer wanted to both make Chrome my default browser and install the Google Toolbar in IE. Either of those would have been annoying as heck, but combined it just leaves me scratching my head in confusion.

Then Java wants to update (again). As always this one wants to install the Ask Toolbar. Yeah, right. When it gets done there's this nifty checkbox "Restart my browser now to complete the installation." Don't care to lose my current browser session just so Java (which rarely gets used) can finish, so I tick that off and click close. This results in a modal dialog "Java Setup - Restart Browser" where they tell me "If you do not restart your browser now, the installation will not complete until the next time you restart your computer." No kidding? Didn't I just read that and tell you to forget about, I'll restart later?

All this over things I have installed only to handle a rare web page or two (and Java's about to get the boot regardless of what web pages require it!). There should be a law against "bundling" in installers, and stupid things like what the Java installer did should result in the developer undergoing public ridicule.

This generates revenues for the developers. If you don't like it, feel free to not use their software.

There's stuff like LinqPad, Regex Buddy, and Bins that all have a free version that is excellent. I've bought the full version for all of those partially to get the added features, but also because I like the software enough to support the folks who write it.

11 hours ago, wkempf wrote

Then Java wants to update (again).

The Java installer is worse than annoying, it's unreliable and capable of screwing itself beyond recovery.

The well known 'Error 1723' which Sun/Oracle have still not worked out a reliable fix for, continues to plague people. The one attempt at a fix that they produced, was pulled after it didn't work and actually made the situation worse for many people. Now you are on your own.

I recently encountered this after the Java update failed to complete correctly.

It took me half a day carefully sifting through the registry and killing off all references to Java, before I got it to a point where I could re-install Java and get it working again.

If it wasn't for a particularly stupid java app that I require, I'd never let this junk loose on my computers.

-Josh

I'm a developer as well... I fully understand the need to monetize, and have no problems with that. I do have problems with this bundling, however, as it's basically a crooked way of monetizing. The goal is to literally trick the user into installing something they never intended to. If that's what you need to do to make money, you have a serious problem. It's also very unhelpful to simply say "don't use their software." I don't have a problem with their software (OK, in this particular case I do, and I may just stop using it for reasons other than the bundling, but I'm talking universally here, as so many applications are bundling now). I don't have a problem with them making money from their software. I do have a problem with the bundling, but there's nothing I can do about it. Not using the software is no more effective than complaining about the problem on here... neither action is likely to change their behavior. But getting it off my chest made me feel better.

@Bass: +1 to not using software that does this.

Flash was always a git, because it's still difficult to use the web without it and there never was an alternative. Switching to Windows 8 has resolved that though and my machine is more crapware free than ever!

@kettch: I'm hoping that's what we'll see in Windows 9. Solving the problems of isolated installation of desktop applications without constraining their ability too much (as well as needing to live in the same world as old-school Windows applications) is no doubt a difficult goal, but not unattainable either.

20 hours ago, kettch wrote

@Bass: That doesn't excuse it. I'd much rather toss the developer a few bucks for software I like than have to deal with this kind of crap. I'm generally happier with software I have to pay for. Maybe it's because I paid for it, and I'm darn well going to like it. More likely it's because the developer feels the need to make sure that people get their money's worth.

There's stuff like LinqPad, Regex Buddy, and Bins that all have a free version that is excellent. I've bought the full version for all of those partially to get the added features, but also because I like the software enough to support the folks who write it.

I don't think that revenue model is really feasible for stuff like Java (or even Adobe Reader or Flash Player). (Not that I imagine either Oracle or Adobe exactly have cashflow problems, even without bundling.)

EDIT: Although it does p!55 me off. Particularly when you're actually doing them a favour running flash/java/adobe reader since it helps make their ecosystems more dominant encouraging people to buy expensive copies of acrobat or whatever. (It's not like I actually want these programmes on my computer in the first place anyway but more a case of "needs must".) Plus the annoyance issues of them sneaking onto your computer if you forget to notice/uncheck the little box. Plus the security issues of people running unpatched versions of goodness knows what that was only installed as a result of this kind of bundling.

Thus I must conclude that this is a non-issue, and will continue as long as it remains a profitable way to distribute software.

Is the Flash business losing so much money that it has to be subsidized by Google, a company who seems to have a strategy of pushing Flash out of the market?

http://clicktoverify.truste.com/pvr.php?page=validate&softwareProgramId=234&sealid=112

"We certified that it's adware" is basically what they're saying. Great, except they now get to display a great big "CERTIFIED - TEH OMG!?!? LOLZ" badge on their front page for social engineering purposes.

15 hours ago, Bass wrote

This is a problem of control that only computer nerds seem to care about. Others will either not notice or find the bundled "crapware" useful. Computer nerds (or "professionals" if you prefer that term) who do not actively use proprietary software to begin with do not experience these issues.

Thus I must conclude that this is a non-issue, and will continue as long as it remains a profitable way to distribute software.

I call BS. First, many normal users do complain about this. Others complain about it indirectly without having any idea what the cause of their complaints are. The problem is so bad that Microsoft has taken to trying to find "solutions" (IE trying to help users to disable add-ons, Microsoft store selling and marketing Signature Line PCs, etc.), though admittedly they are obviously reluctant to actually put the ban hammer down, as they do have the ability to do so. This is NOT a non-issue, nor is it "nerd rage", nor would it matter if it were. And if your last sentence is indicating that you personally have software you've written that follows these practices, then shame on you.

1)Microsoft Installer cleanup utilty to remove all versions of java on the machine

2) then run a utilty called Java Ra to remove all files, folders and reg keys then go into the registry and delete the HKLM/Software/Javasoft key.

3) ensure the program files/java folder is gone

4) rerun your install and most of the time it will work.

Took me a while to figure out how to fix that one.

So you volunteer to pay the Java and Flash developer's salaries, or at least have an idea for a better business model?

1 day ago, Bass wrote

This is a problem of control that only computer nerds seem to care about. Others will either not notice or find the bundled "crapware" useful.

That's nonsense. Back when I was in the Netherlands, friends and family would so often ask me to come round to clean out the crap they'd accumulated in this fashion that I took to charging for it because there is only so much time I'm willing to put into computer maintenance charity work.

And every time I'd tell them to watch for checkboxes when installing stuff. Most of the time I knew exactly what they were installing that got them the crapware, so I told them "next time you install an update for X, make sure you uncheck Y". And then two months later I got called to remove Y again.

At least it did actually make me some money, since some of them were so desperate that even though I charged for it, they still wanted me to do it.

So my experience is completely opposite your notion that ordinary users "won't mind" crapware.

23 hours ago, lensman wrote

If you are tired of the upgrade notifications, turn them off.

Yes, that's a fantastic idea...

This really needs fixing.

If you operate from the view point that "someone has to keep you secure", I disagree with the philosophy.  I have been on the net since 1979, before 2400 baud modems, with zero infections.  No, that is not zero known infections, that is zero infections.  I am the guy you call when all of your Catholic schools computers have been broadcasting porn all summer and you need to open tomorrow.  (A real life scenario which I have helped out at)  

Java is probably in  my top three for worst installer ever.

With Java you can disable the upgrades if you either go in and edit the MSI manually with Orca or simular tool, which is kind of a pain as well.

I wish Oracle would either rewrite thier installer or give you an admin tool to create the installer kind of like Adobe does for Acrobat.

Java is a real PITA but .Net updates are too

Doesn't .NET update as part of the installer for an app that needs a newer version of .NET, with security updates being pushed through Windows Update?

I'm not sure how that even compares with Oracle's utter failure to patch actively exploited vulnerabilities for 2 months after they knew the bug was being used to exploit malware.

And Microsoft doesn't bundle crapware with .NET installers, unlike Oracle.

16 hours ago, lensman wrote

@GoddersUK:  Are you suggesting that turning off the notification is a unwise thing?  I am not a newbie and upgrade when I determine I need to.  Having something annoy (aka, nag) me to upgrade my system is pointless.

For you and I who will hear when an urgent patch is required, perhaps (and even then we can't know about every patch for everything all the time). I certainly have better things to do with my time than manually check all my software is up to date. For the average user? No it's not. That's the only way they'll ever update their software.

Besides having 3 dozen software packages "phone home" on reboot's takes time.  Why should I give someone feedback on my reboot schedule?  Besides my time is too valuable.

Actually, iirc, Java, for instance, only checks for updates once a month. Besides, how often do you reboot your computer? A couple of times a day at most? Less if you use hibernate.

with zero infections.  No, that is not zero known infections, that is zero infections.

By definition you can't say that, so don't try. And, as they say, "the pride comes before the fall". Besides, no matter how careful you are, you can never be sure that a legitimate webpage isn't serving ads with exploits, that a computer you plug your flash drive into is clean, that that PDF someone sent you doesn't have an exploit, that your favourite web page hasn't been hacked. So often so much your security is outside of your control that that's a really, really dangerous attitude to have.

I am the guy you call when all of your Catholic schools computers have been broadcasting porn all summer and you need to open tomorrow.  (A real life scenario which I have helped out at)  

So are most of the people on this forum...

33 minutes ago, GoddersUK wrote

Besides, how often do you reboot your computer? A couple of times a day at most? Less if you use hibernate.

most of the people on this forum...

Yikes, I don't reboot more than once a month for Windows updates, and a lot of those application updates complain if there's a pending reboot or updates. So, they ended up backed up several deep. I've gotten rid of all of them, and I'm sticking with the Reader app until Adobe comes up with a WS version.

EDIT: This is probably another way in which the average users of this forum is different from an "average joe".

Too bad I need Java for my work (and also Minecraft ).

3 days ago, AndyC wrote

@wkempf: That Flash one nearly caught me out the other day on my W7 netbook. Thankfully I was able to cancel it before it had downloaded Chrome, Google Toolbar and who else know what. Normally I'm careful enough to deselect all those kind of things, so I suspect it been even more devious in stealth hiding that option. Java, however, has not been installed on any of my machines

Haha the exact same thing happened to me. I'm so conditioned to clicking through the Flash installer by now that I missed how they sneaked in the Chrome and Google Toolbar installs. Next thing I had this installer going through it's steps showing Chrome and Google Toolbar as next steps. What The F...!!?? There was no cancel button, just a close button so I immediately clicked on that and fortunately the POS didn't get to do its dirty little deeds. After that I checked my wife's computer to make sure that crap wasn't installed on her computer either. I actually ranted about this same thing somewhere on this forum after that. This is getting ridiculous.

After this I visit the Add/Remove Programs list on a regular basis to make sure there aren't uninvited stuff there.

19 hours ago, GoddersUK wrote

@blowdart: If I've had to fix someone elses machine (and periodically on my machine) I run Secunia PSI to catch any out of date software that I've missed. The software isn't trouble free enough for me to recommend it to less computer literate people though.

 

Yea I run Secunia at home.