Learning to read a map and using that tried and tested method makes me despair of the seemingly basic skills that "apps" on smartphones are robbing a generation of. My nephew can read a digital clock but not an analogue one (will be corrected), in some grammar schools kids are now not allowed smartphones, but I fear for swathes of the population, parents will be competing to show that all their kids have iPhone 5's

I've said it before and I'll say it again: In the wrong hands, every GPS is potentially life-threatening.

And without the right preparation and adequate provisions, relying on them can be fatal.

P.S.

Maps was the least of the reasons Forstall was sacked. Remember that Browett went at the same time for much the same reasons. And I would be very surprised if Cook didn't know the state of Maps when it was released.

Re: digital clocks...in high school, I was astonished when I learned that most students in my class couldn't read an analog clock. What's worse...they still can't.

I do feel like i grew up at the right time, though....so far, a little more than half of my life saw the emergence of the PC and the transition from over-the-air broadcast to cable. I remember too well what it was like when the digital world was switched on for a mere hour here and there.  

5 minutes ago, vesuvius wrote

@Ray7:Speechless after that list, clearly people are headed for Brave New World, and forgetting what they are capable of.

People have been mortally stupid since long before GPSes were invented:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards

22 minutes ago, MasterPie wrote

I was astonished when I learned that most students in my class couldn't read an analog clock. What's worse...they still can't.

 

Astonishing, simply astonishing. An aunt in her gracious and dignified age, cannot send text messages, and does not use a computer, which I appreciate came along a little too late for her to substitute Poirot books for Google, but a clock, they're all around you. Fancy seeing Big Ben and not being able to read it, that just does not compute.

1. We'll eventually forget how to fix the very things we've created
2. We'll loose the appreciate what technology is doing for us in the first place.
3. We'll relinquish personal responsibility and blame technology for important things like answering for why you ran a child over with your car -- "because my device's navigation told me to go that way."

Technology is a tool -- not a replacement for our humanity -- and always should be treated as such.

5 minutes ago, vesuvius wrote

Fancy seeing Big Ben and not being able to read it, that just does not compute.

Why would you look at Big Ben to know the time when your iphone in your pocket tells you what the time is without the need to look up or travel to parliament square? And instead of roman numerals on a round face that makes you have to sort of guess the minutes by looking at the angle, your iPhone will tell you exactly what time it is in digital quality immediately.

I don't like this whole "we need to teach our students how to do the stuff that we could do" nostalgia BS. If we make something that means our kids don't have to jump through the same stupid hoops we did to get the information that they need, why should we teach them to do stuff in the old fashioned way?

Frankly GPSes fill a major gap that maps have - i.e. it tells you where you are, without you needing to know before hand. Digital times might be less pretty than analogue ones, but they're by-and-large more accurate and faster to interpret, and if a student fails to put his apostrophes after possessives or dares to ends his sentences with a preposition, I think it is a world that we will have to put up with.

And you know what - it might be better.

3 minutes ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

And they no longer teach cursive handwriting in public schools either.

Seriously? You mean, they don't know how to write joined characters?! How do they write in school.. with block capitals? How do they get anything done this way? It's f* time consuming.

Herbie

Herbie

- Socrates

The following regarding things have been neglected:
"I mean such things as these: ? when the young are to be silent before their elders; how they are to show respect to them by standing and making them sit; what honour is due to parents; what garments or shoes are to be worn; the mode of dressing the hair; deportment and manners in general. You would agree with me? ? Yes."

- Plato

"The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of
today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for
parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as
if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is
foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest
and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."

- Peter the Hermit (1274 AD).

15 minutes ago, wastingtime​withforums wrote

*snip*

Seriously? You mean, they don't know how to write joined characters?! How do they write in school.. with block capitals? How do they get anything done this way? It's f* time consuming.

Why do you write anything? I type way faster than I could ever write, and no matter how well you train someone in the art of cursive, most people's handwriting looks like crap.

So, yeah, I do write in all caps so that people can read what I write, but mostly I type.

And, now, for a thought experiment: If you were stranded on an island and wanted to be rescued, would you arrange your coconuts, sea-shells, and seabird carcasses in cursive?  Would you use upper or lower or mixed case?

43 seconds ago, ScanIAm wrote

*snip*

Why do you write anything? I type way faster than I could ever write

Because typing on a electronic device is not always possible, nor desirable. Let's say you're reading a book and want to take notes, or you're learning and you write the stuff down to remember it better. Or you need to write down an adress fast.. a pen is always faster than a multimedia device! It's also not distracting.

About the schools... they surely can't be typing on a computer all the time? The time factor to write block characters is astronomical compared to cursive, - any time saved by not learning cursive is eaten up tenfold by writing always block characters.

22 minutes ago, evildictait​or wrote

 - Socrates

 - Plato

 - Peter the Hermit (1274 AD).

I knew all of those as I read them, not word for word, but close nevertheless (disconcerting). I find inspiration in Art and looking back, even in programming. Once you get over the hurdle of learning something new, it is the people with historical knowledge that seem to do better, not always, but in general.

3 minutes ago, wastingtime​withforums wrote

*snip*

Because typing on a electronic device is not always possible, nor desirable. Let's say you're reading a book and want to take notes, or you're learning and write the stuff down to remember it better. Or you need to write down an adress fast.. a pen is always faster than a multimedia device! It's also not distracting.

A pen is only faster than a multimedia device if you happen to have:

1) a pen

2) something to write on

3) no working media device to use.

Using a machine to enhance your abilities is great! Using a machine to disable your abilities is terrible!

Let's not forget that it isn't even single machines we are talking about nowadays, but always-mothership-connected prolonged arms of organizations that most of the time don't have your well being in mind.

Herbie: "When the printing press was invented, we no longer had to memorise so much information"

A book exists and is usable without a power plant. Books and scrolls that are thousands of years old are getting found, and are still readable, while the average USB stick rots within less than a decade. Think what immense infrastructure is needed to keep a single net-connected PC working.

Honestly, in all the times I've driven through Mildura, I've never once required a map.

Seriously, are we debating whether kids should know where they are, how they got there, and how to get back? So, they should just simply walk around in 3D (technically, 4D) space without using any sort of spacial reasoning?

For clocks...thankfully, people can still distinguish night from day without needing their smartphone.

Nobody suggests that we should unlearn language or letters, just that we relegate cursive handwriting to the same bin we've done with calligraphy.

If you want to write pretty, go to art school, nancy.

6 minutes ago, ScanIAm wrote

When you all get done sliding down that slippery slope into hysteria, recognize that the ability to write in cursive is a skill that could completely disappear from human knowledge and our ability to communicate wouldn't be diminished.

Nobody suggests that we should unlearn language or letters, just that we relegate cursive handwriting to the same bin we've done with calligraphy.

My point is though that cursive is far more effective than other kinds of hand-writing. It's far faster than writing block letters or calligraphy. We are "binning" the more efficient method.

Analog clocks offer some benefits over digital clocks.They visually demonstrate the relative weight of time lapses as a fraction of the remaining time (you don't quite feel this with a digital clock, you just know it via computation).  You can also tell instantly in which quarter of the hour it is and whether it's past noon, evening, midnight without worrying about the actual time. Heck, you don't even need numbers on a clock...just the hour and minute hands are enough to give you reasonable approximations that are just as useful.

Oh, and they're soooo cool looking (canvas required).

Ever heard the expression "beating the dead horse"?

2 hours ago, wastingtime​withforums wrote

*snip*

My point is though that cursive is far more effective than other kinds of hand-writing. It's far faster than writing block letters or calligraphy. We are "binning" the more efficient method.

But far less effective than other kinds of communication, such as typing.

Being able to write in cursive was important in the early 20th century because handwriting was the primary form by which humans conducted official correspondence.

In the 21st century, it is much more sensible for us to teach our students to get a 10% speedup in their typing than to get a 10% speedup in their handwriting, because when those students are older they are going to spend vastly more time wasted waiting for their fat fingers to spit their little thoughts out onto a computer than pushing their words out via the nib of a pen onto paper.

5 hours ago, Dr Herbie wrote

@wastingtimewithforums: Actually both my children are learning cursive handwriting in school at the moment.  I've told them they're not learning to touch-type until their handwriting is up to scratch (my son is left-handed so he's having to work harder at neatness).

Good thing you weren't my father, then, because I would still not be allowed to touch type.

Honestly, my handwriting is terrible, and has always been terrible. Back when I was in elementary school it was a common joke for my teachers to say I would become a general practitioner because my handwriting was so terrible.

I also never, ever use cursive anymore. I'm way faster writing in block letters (although I can write cursive quite fast, I can't read it back myself unless I go really slowly and carefully). The only thing that I still use that's sort of cursive writing is my signature.

Note being able to read an analogue clock though, that's just stupid. Let's just hope those people never need to catch a train when their iPhone's battery has run out (90% of stations I've been to only have analogue clocks).

2 hours ago, Bass wrote

@vesuvius:

Ever heard the expression "beating the dead horse"?

Well this is a new development so it's hardly beating a dead horse.

1 hour ago, Sven Groot wrote

Back when I was in elementary school it was a common joke for my teachers to say I would become a general practitioner because my handwriting was so terrible.

You just weren't taught properly... nothing like a few hard whacks across the back of the knuckles with a metal-edged ruler, to sort out your handwriting.

When I were lad... LOL... teachers tried to force lefties to write right-handed, because they smudged the ink.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2012/12/08/mb-missing-man.html

23 minutes ago, elmer wrote

*snip*

You just weren't taught properly... nothing like a few hard whacks across the back of the knuckles with a metal-edged ruler, to sort out your handwriting.

When I were lad... LOL... teachers tried to force lefties to write right-handed, because they smudged the ink.

They had me go back to teaching books for 12 year olds when I was 16. I had to sit in the head masters office for 3 hours a week practising. My writing still sucks.

But I take pride in being able to use a (proper) map and compass; training from my days in the Scouts showing through, I think.

Plus, I like my AZ it doesn't need an expensive data contract, it works on the tube, it never runs out of battery, no-one's going to mug me for it, it doesn't matter if I lose/damage it...

EDIT:

Before people are allowed sat navs that tell them where to go they should prove their competency with one of these:

14 hours ago, elmer wrote

@vesuvius:I say it's simply natural selection at work.

Ouch!

10 hours ago, Sven Groot wrote

*snip

Honestly, my handwriting is terrible, and has always been terrible. 

Tell me about it, born left handed, I went to a Jewish primary school and was forced to use my right hand, which I still use to this day.

At secondary school, every page of every text you wrote had to have "A.M.D.G" in the top left hand corner, and it had to be written well, boy did I struggle in the first year or so.

then you are lucky. Because I was born left handed in Taiwan, which uses more complex traditional Chinese and my name itself is quite complex, 32 strokes.

on top of that, I am a slower reader and writer. I constantly struggle to write down the homework list before the bell rings and forced to leave class in time.

As it is, my writing is getting progressively worse. 

It's like how we often have threads here about the fact that despite modern development tools abstract much away from our daily work, having a basic understanding of memory management and hardware architecture can still help us to be better developers. That isn't to say that everyone must be experts in everything, but lacking even a basic understanding is building a culture of helplessness.

15 minutes ago, Ray7 wrote

If I'm writing a personal letter, then I use pen and paper. If I didn't, I'd forget how to write. 

As it is, my writing is getting progressively worse. 

 

15 minutes ago, Ion Todirel wrote

 I do not write personal letters, what's that?

Pros use telepathy. Beam the message directly into the recipient's head.

39 minutes ago, Ion Todirel wrote

 I do not write personal letters, what's that?

Some love letters I have are probably some of my most cherished possessions, I never write anything affectionate in text or email, maybe the odd "I miss you", it is quite something to try and fill a few pages with emotion and feeling, this is not a topic my avatar suggests, I am a creepy blood drinker, best change topic, people will think I have gone mad.

14 minutes ago, ScanIAm wrote

If anything cause enough of a society collapse that we had to go back to handwriting, we have more to worry about than how to write a cursive Q...

 

Image courtesy of Interesting Engineering @ facebook

2 hours ago, Ion Todirel wrote

... I only write sometimes in my dumps journal ...

You keep a journal of your dumps? 

1 hour ago, vesuvius wrote

*snip*

Image courtesy of Interesting Engineering @ facebook

Lately, I've noticed that the prescription never makes it out of the doctor's office.  It's sent up to the receptionist and entered into a computer.

I guess as long as the receptionist can read the chickenscratch...

Herbie

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id585027354 

48 minutes ago, elmer wrote

Back to the original topic... Google has released its maps app for iOS.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id585027354 

Maybe we'll see more Niners in the next few days now that they finally figured out how to get home.

1 hour ago, elmer wrote

Back to the original topic... Google has released its maps app for iOS.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id585027354 

Oh thank goodness. Finally, a maps application that can find stuff! Just a few days ago, I was lamenting how ridiculous it'd gotten to try and find a specific restaurant I wanted to eat at, because Apple Maps couldn't find it (naturally), and the Google Maps web app keeps losing the search every time the phone goes to sleep. At least now it works properly again, and even seems to have more features than before.

And public transit directions are back! Sure, I usually use Jorudan for that but that's only helpful if I already know which stations to use. And it looks like they've got buses for Tokyo as well now, which Jorudan doesn't do.

I hope everyone starts using this and that Apple Maps usage falls to zero. It's not deserving of anything better.

37 minutes ago, contextfree` wrote

Now if they'd only release a maps app for Windows Phone ...

There's a 3rd party one that works well. Apparently.

11 hours ago, elmer wrote

*snip*

You keep a journal of your dumps? 

1 hour ago, Sven Groot wrote

*snip*

Oh thank goodness. Finally, a maps application that can find stuff! Just a few days ago, I was lamenting how ridiculous it'd gotten to try and find a specific restaurant I wanted to eat at, because Apple Maps couldn't find it (naturally), and the Google Maps web app keeps losing the search every time the phone goes to sleep. At least now it works properly again, and even seems to have more features than before.

And public transit directions are back! Sure, I usually use Jorudan for that but that's only helpful if I already know which stations to use. And it looks like they've got buses for Tokyo as well now, which Jorudan doesn't do.

I hope everyone starts using this and that Apple Maps usage falls to zero. It's not deserving of anything better.

17 hours ago, elmer wrote

*snip*

You keep a journal of your dumps? 

http://youtu.be/ZkmhiY6wK9w?t=5s

8 hours ago, MasterPie wrote

*snip*

Maybe we'll see more Niners in the next few days now that they finally figured out how to get home.

Niners who use iDevices don't deserve to get home...

1 hour ago, GoddersUK wrote

*snip*

Niners who use iDevices don't deserve to get home...

That's right! Only idiots would use anything but Android.

I just got a Galaxy Note 2 and am loving it. I honestly really tried to like WP8 and test drove it on several occations but couldn't shake the feeling that the apps were going to be shallow like what I found in W8. Plus for whatever reason I couldn't type very well on either the Nokia 920 nor the HTC 8X. No problems on the big, phat Note 2. And no my hands aren't really that big.