Take a look and vote if you agree with the sentiment:.

http://dotnet.uservoice.com/forums/4325-silverlight-feature-suggestions/suggestions/1894125-main-language-for-the-windows-8-development

It is much more than just SL. The whole .Net framework seems to be deprecated in Windows 8, to be replaced by HTML5/JS. Or at least that is the message that was given to us from MS. We can argue whether we are reading too much into what they said, but the fact that they created so much confusion means that they gave us a misleading message. They should fix it ASAP.

Personally I find this whole thing is so dumb that I believe it has to be a major marketing mistake. I just can't imagine how MS could throw the whole .Net framework out the window and make HTML5/JS the only option. It doesn't compute.

In the meantime, whether true or not, they are creating immense damage to the .Net framework and developers developers developers' confidence in the future of .Net. For what? For the ability to have some dramatic "reveal" at BUILD in over 3 months from now? Once again they should fix it ASAP before the damage gets even worse.

43 minutes ago, Ian2 wrote

@PaoloM:OK,you know what I mean .... did you vote?

I can't find any reason to create a new application in Silverlight. Silverlight as the "main language" in Windows 8 would be very stupid.

I've never bought into the "Windows is doomed" thing before - I figured that people always need an OS on their PCs and few people really want to run Linux and OSX is only available on expensive Macs; it would be really easy for Microsoft to keep Windows going as the main OS for decades. But no, they've drunk the HTML koolaid in the IE team and now the lunatics have taken over the whole Windows division.

If you really want us to write in the half-baked, unmaintainable language that is Javascript, I'll use this as an opportunity to stop using Windows so I'm free of the children's playpen decor that passes for user-interface design at Microsoft these days.

Windows 8 is the first glimpse I've seen of the demise of the Windows era. Windows will die but it won't have been killed by Linux, Apple or the web browser - it will have committed suicide.

20 minutes ago, rhm wrote

I'm not that jazzed about developing desktop applications in Silverlight, but if Microsoft is betting the farm on HTML5 then I think it really is time to start looking for another operating system.

I've never bought into the "Windows is doomed" thing before - I figured that people always need an OS on their PCs and few people really want to run Linux and OSX is only available on expensive Macs; it would be really easy for Microsoft to keep Windows going as the main OS for decades. But no, they've drunk the HTML koolaid in the IE team and now the lunatics have taken over the whole Windows division.

If you really want us to write in the half-baked, unmaintainable language that is Javascript, I'll use this as an opportunity to stop using Windows so I'm free of the children's playpen decor that passes for user-interface design at Microsoft these days.

Windows 8 is the first glimpse I've seen of the demise of the Windows era. Windows will die but it won't have been killed by Linux, Apple or the web browser - it will have committed suicide.

If Microsoft has drunk any kind of Kool-Aid, it's the tablet Kool-Aid. If it's true that Microsoft is planning on "kilingl" .NET for the "immersive UI" of HTML5+CSS+JavaScript, they're letting the 15 million iPads that Apple sold last year be the tail wagging the 1.2 billion PC dog.

6 minutes ago, cbae wrote

...If it's true that Microsoft is planning on "kilingl" .NET for the "immersive UI" of HTML5+CSS+JavaScript...

Only an idiot would think that.

Sorry, but that's how you guys are sounding like.

13 minutes ago, PaoloM wrote

*snip*

Only an idiot would think that.

Sorry, but that's how you guys are sounding like.

Did you see the word "if" at the beginning of my sentence?

http://forums.silverlight.net/forums/t/230502.aspx

MS really need to do some damage control asap.

10 hours ago, PaoloM wrote

*snip*

Only an idiot would think that.

Sorry, but that's how you guys are sounding like.

There is no point blaming them. This is Micrososoft's PR foul-up and no one else's.

With any luck, someone with influence at MS will sit down and watch the Apple event tomorrow to see how to relate to an enthusiastic developer community, even if your development tools are woefully out of date.

Microsoft invested lot's of money into building the parts of .NET. And I don't see them push out javascript based frameworks and solid tools to do this before the release date of windows 8. I don't know what the development of Silverlight 5 costs, but I assume it isn't that cheap to let it run and throw it away, because of html5.

The story of building these small apps in html5/js instead of silverlight isn't that bad. This probably has a larger range of supported devices than silverlight or wpf (can) have. I would not be supprised if you could just build silverlight or wpf tiles if you wanted, which might in some cases be more reasonable than building it in html5/js. But if you build them in silverlight, than they won't be supported on other devices, like the ipad or android tablets.

Why would Windows 8 applications need to run on iPad or Android?

It is much more important to be able to share the same code between Windows 8, WP7/8 and Xbox than iPad or Android.

And here is what Mary-Jo Foley has to say. It really does seem that there is a big piece of the puzzle that was left out. Hopefully somone at MS wakes up and realizes the damage this is causing.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/eternalcoding/archive/2011/06/06/fr-html-5-vs-silverlight-5.aspx

While I agree that Silverlight and it's tooling is miles ahead of html5 developent and I would rather build Silverlight apps than html5/js apps. It still allows Microsoft to tap into a larger developer audience, that is at the moment developing html5/js tablet or phone apps. Which will allow them to create a stronger marketplace of apps.

To me they didn't tell the world, we've dropped Silverlight or WPF development, they've showed one small thing and everyone is screaming. I assume building Silverlight or WPF tiles will just be possible. Than this is a smart move to get a stronger platform, because applications are important for that, without them you have an empty box. I own a WP7 and love it, but needs more apps (Don't know if that is because there isn't a marketplace in my country).

I still don't see why Windows 8 apps need to run on iBaubles or Android. Why? Can you explain it?

Second, where did people get the idea that every application can be shoved into a browser? Does this application make sense in a browser? Apparently we now need to funnel every single user experience through a browser as web app that by definition has to take a lowest-common-denomiator approach.

Worse, some web-app centric people think applications consist only of a from-like UI with a little bit of flashy animations added (example: "How ironic that you complain about HTML/JS, but do you realize the forum you are complaining on is written in HTML/JS?").

I still don't see why Windows 8 apps need to run on iBaubles or Android. Why? Can you explain it?

Because it aren't Windows 8 apps. It are apps.

Second, where did people get the idea that every application can be shoved into a browser? Does this application make sense in a browser? Apparently we now need to funnel every single user experience through a browser as web app that by definition has to take a lowest-common-denomiator approach.

That one should not run in a browser, that's why i think they will never drop WPF or .NET. But it's a good thing they allow windows to have more of these smaller gadgets or apps, which don't require WPF to build them. There are tons of those, that are used more and more, today.

Worse, some web-app centric people think applications consist only of a from-like UI with a little bit of flashy animations added (example: "How ironic that you complain about HTML/JS, but do you realize the forum you are complaining on is written in HTML/JS?").

I build windows desktop apps, nothing web-app centric. I don't see why that's ironic.

In one of your earlier posts you said:

But if you build them in silverlight, than they won't be supported on other devices, like the ipad or android tablets

I'm just asking why anyone needs to care whether Windows 8 apps work or are easily portable to iBaubles or Android. There doesn't need to be any porting story there at all. Only between Windows 8, WP7/8 and Xbox.

20 minutes ago, erik_ wrote

*snip*

Because it aren't Windows 8 apps. It are apps.

*snip*

I'm not following. We are talking about the new Windows 8 programming model. Any app/application that follows any other model is considered legacy if you go by what MS told us last week. That is a huge implication.

That one should not run in a browser [Sonar], that's why i think they will never drop WPF or .NET. But it's a good thing they allow windows to have more of these smaller gadgets or apps, which don't require WPF to build them. There are tons of those, that are used more and more, today.

...but note once again my comment above that anything else other than this new HTML5/JS model is considered legacy in Windows 8 if you believe what MS told us last week. Actually, applications like Sonar should not even be managed, it should be C++ due to it's high demand as being a "realtime" application, although .Net is becoming more and more capable of running high-performance, realtime applications compared to when it was initially released. See XNA. And I think this trend will continue.

So how do these types of applications fit into this new wonderful HTML5/JS future. Will all of them be considered legacy?

I build windows desktop apps, nothing web-app centric. I don't see why that's ironic.

I think you missed my point. In fact I'm with you on this - I also write only desktop apps - I never cared for any "web" apps in my life. So I wasn't talking about you in particular. I was talking about the people that insist that every application should be a web crApplet. These people make comments like "see, this web forum is a web-app, so it just proves how everything can be a web-app".

 We are talking about the new Windows 8 programming model. Any app/application that follows any other model is considered legacy if you go by what MS told us last week. That is a huge implication.

I think we are almost on the same level, but we both look differently at the message Microsoft presented with that youtube video. To me, they didn't tell at all that WPF or Silverlight would become legacy. You could still run those applications and I assume that during the development of Windows 8 this experience within windows 8 will improve. I think xaml based development will be intergated just as well as html5/js, but just isn't today.

I believe the form factor and usage of a pc is moving away for the desktop pc. More and more end users get a laptop, slate, tablet or any more mobile device. These devices are always connected and less powerfull than a fresh desktop pc. What Microsoft does with this step is allowing those users to use their apps. So that there marketplace of availible apps gets bigger (more html devs than silverlight devs and easier porting of apps). These apps are the apps they use to (if I look around me): facebook, twitter, whatsapp, email, watch video, manage agenda, photo browsing, weather info, browse web, etc. When looking at one of those future videos, where everything is a display, i mainly see usage of communication and information gathering, which are the apps that come back in the list of apps above.

I think, while it is a different form factor, that with those more mobile 'always connected/ always on' devices, the touch friendly interface, and a large marketplace of apps this becomes real and is what they presented in the Windows 8 video. And most of those apps can be build using html5/js. I don't know where a device like the xbox fits in here, because the tv feels to big to me, I see it more as a device to watch media on and play games on or call with family, like you do with skype. Maby for users of the current teletext http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext, this feels different.

Next to that usage, some might still have a desktop pc, to run what you might sooner call 'real' applications. Like the one you linked to, advanced photo editing, visual studio, video editing, 3dsmax, that sort of applications. Those don't work that well on a lower powered device and in some case don't work for touch. But they are in no way going away, and building them as html apps is indeed insane.

Have you seen those music apps on the iPad that allows people to create full "bands" while each person with an iPad plays an onscreen "instrument"? Personally I don't care about those apps but the fact that you can write powerful apps like that on the iPad should tell us that an HTML5/JS only approach is idiotic. Basically what you are saying is that it is OK to completely exclude this whole category of applications because people only want to run toy HTML/JS crapplets on a tablet. I don't agree with that at all. I don't think many people would want to write real applications using it.

MS has an opportunity to have a framework that allows developers to, with very little effort, create applications that can easily run across desktops/tablets/Xbox, but they go down this dumb HTML5/JS route which excludes such development. I think it is absolutely retarded.

Steve Jobs is probably wetting his pants from laughter at all of this. Apple thinks of HTML5 as a nice marketing buzz word to distract from the fact that they don't want to add Flash support because they want all "rich" apps to funnel through their app store. They don't care about being open or interop friendly and it is working for them.

If you look at what is going on the Twatosphere as a whole, while it's not scientific at all, but it seems the "death of Silverlight" is generally well received concept. While some people here express disdain, there [seems to be] many more people expressing great joy over the possible death of Silverlight and promotion of HTML5.

Microsoft already has your loyalty. But they need to cater more and more to the larger audience and get their loyalty as well in order to ensure the future viability of their products.

......

Pete. Personally I am fan of your work and will often support you even when I think you're wrong because at the end of the day you work very hard to make a difference to communities like this. My personal advice to you is step aside, don't take this bullet as the Windows team have some damage to fix and as some managers in the Silverlight team used to say "If you going to break up a fight, be prepared to be punched in the face".

......

My advice - wait this HTML5 bubble gum pop idea out as it's one thing to say "all devs will create HTML5 apps" and its entirely another to have it happen. This is about the 4th time Windows team have tried to kickstart the HTML pipedream and what they fail to realise is that folks who do adopt Microsoft tech enjoy .NET folks who don't, just don't like Microsoft as a brand and it mainly has nothing to do with technology discussion. Can't imagine why they loose faith in the brand though? can you

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Scott Barnes
Former Product Manager (well 1yr ago lol) for Silverlight/WPF