File management? Shove it!

22 minutes ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

No, you don't. Install the Release Preview and see for yourself.

Ah, that's great! I installed it but didn't bother to click, just swiped immediately because that was the behavior in the previous version

Kudos for fixing that!

12 minutes ago, wastingtimewithforums wrote

*snip*

Ah, that's great! I installed it but didn't bother to click, just swiped immediately because that was the behavior in the previous version

Kudos for fixing that!

The Windows team must have seen those YouTube videos too.

Oh, I didn't realize they changed that either. That's good - having to swipe with the mouse is not only awkward, but it trained people to think that the way to use Windows 8 with a mouse is to imitate touch gestures, which isn't actually how it's designed.

You didn't have to drag it up in the previous version either.

You didn't have to, but it "taught" you to do it that way by bouncing the screen when you clicked.

Not sure what all the fuss is about. I've been running it on my tablet since September, but this is the first time I've put it on a desktop. The way everything works with a keyboard and mouse took all of 5 minutes to get used to.

Seems pretty slick so far.

EDIT: Ok, I did have trouble with the fact that there's still a 255 character limit on paths. I guess we have to wait for ReFS to fix that. But making the bread crumb bar a drop target makes up for it.

ReFS won't fix it, since it's not a file system issue to begin with =)

2 hours ago, contextfree` wrote

ReFS won't fix it, since it's not a file system issue to begin with =)

In the end, it doesn't matter, just that somebody better fix it. Whether it's file system, or Win32, or a shortage of magic unicorns, it's very annoying.

@kettch:Most of the path limits are essentially compiled into each and every Windows application. Fixing it has long proved a diificult, if not impossible step.

I suspect Metro actually points to the real solution, completely abstract away the concept of a filesystem altogether (end users often find the concept quite confusing) and instead present the right kind of information and organization of data on an app by app basis.

1 hour ago, AndyC wrote

@kettch:Most of the path limits are essentially compiled into each and every Windows application. Fixing it has long proved a diificult, if not impossible step.

I suspect Metro actually points to the real solution, completely abstract away the concept of a filesystem altogether (end users often find the concept quite confusing) and instead present the right kind of information and organization of data on an app by app basis.

Siloing data on a per app basis isn't going to be enough for things like photos -- there's just too many files. We've all heard your arguments before about tags & search vs. folders but in the end it comes down to the OS and the apps that run on it providing good defaults for folders and/or tags and helping the user keep their files organized in some fashion. Shifting from folders to some other organization technique doesn't necessarily solve the problem.

And for the record I disagree with you're presumption that re file systems that "end users often find the concept quite confusing". There are just as many who find it useful. Also there is still a file picker in metro that relies on the file system so it's not going away any time soon. IMO we need all of the above: apps and an OS that provide better assistance in organizing and finding data in both the file system and via tags & search without arbitrary limitations like file paths. I suspect Microsoft will ignore the latter problem rather than fix it because IMO that's their M.O. these days: chase the shiny rather than fix the problems.

2 hours ago, AndyC wrote

@kettch:Most of the path limits are essentially compiled into each and every Windows application. Fixing it has long proved a diificult, if not impossible step.

Yes, that's the real problem. Every single application ever made that has ever used a "char fileName[MAX_PATH+1];" would have to be changed to really fix the problem.

1 hour ago, DeathByVisualStudio wrote

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Siloing data on a per app basis isn't going to be enough for things like photos -- there's just too many files. We've all heard your arguments before about tags & search vs. folders but in the end it comes down to the OS and the apps that run on it providing good defaults for folders and/or tags and helping the user keep their files organized in some fashion. Shifting from folders to some other organization technique doesn't necessarily solve the problem.

But files/folders doesn't help any more there either. So most people stick with one tool (be that Flickr/Facebook/Picassa) and use that to organise their photos. How it ends up being stored on the computer is basicallly irrelevant as far as they're concerned. And a tool deliberately aimed at organising just one thing, i.e. photos, is always going to be better capable than a tool aimed at generic organisation, i.e. the filesystem.

And for the record I disagree with you're presumption that re file systems that "end users often find the concept quite confusing". There are just as many who find it useful. Also there is still a file picker in metro that relies on the file system so it's not going away any time soon.

For every one person who finds the filesystem a useful concept, there are easily several thousand who don't. It's a very low-level metaphor and one that is a long way behind the times. I've spent years dealing with end-user support of PC systems and this is one of those areas that consistently causes problems. For first time users of computers (and there are still plenty) it's a horrible experience and it's one of the things that makes devices like the iPad a lot more appealing to the masses, because that "just works"

Even the file picker in Metro mostly abstracts the file system away by doing things like constraining the amount of browsable locations and only displaying things the app can understand, preferably in an appropriate format. It pushes closer to the direction of picking where you're pictures etc come from in the user's mental model (i.e Facebook, Flickr, Picassa etc) rather than some arbitrary filing system you thought up a few weeks ago and can't really remember.

1 minute ago, AndyC wrote

For every one person who finds the filesystem a useful concept, there are easily several thousand who don't. It's a very low-level metaphor and one that is a long way behind the times.

Agreed. How often to people actually know what happens when they click save? I've spent a lot of time helping people understand how documents end up in My Documents, and it never sticks.

I've been doing a lot of work with electronic document storage lately, and one of the big things is being able to tell the users to forget about browsing. Clicking through folders only works when the number of documents is small. It's much easier to trust the metadata and just search. I'm really glad that WinFS went away. There was a lot of great tech in there that primarily went into displaying old fashioned folders and files. I think they've finally got the technology and experience to do something useful with that kind of platform.

2 hours ago, AndyC wrote

*snip*

But files/folders doesn't help any more there either. So most people stick with one tool (be that Flickr/Facebook/Picassa) and use that to organise their photos.

It's really easy to make an argument that "most people" do something when it's baseless.

*snip*

How it ends up being stored on the computer is basicallly irrelevant as far as they're concerned. And a tool deliberately aimed at organising just one thing, i.e. photos, is always going to be better capable than a tool aimed at generic organisation, i.e. the filesystem.

The organization of user files is only as good as the app they are using. That's my whole point. Moving from file system to tags & search is just moving the problem. If the OS and app support & implementation isn't there those that rely on the computer organizing things for them are going to be just as lost.

*snip*

For every one person who finds the filesystem a useful concept, there are easily several thousand who don't.

And what do you base this fact on?

*snip*

Even the file picker in Metro mostly abstracts the file system away by doing things like constraining the amount of browsable locations and only displaying things the app can understand, preferably in an appropriate format.

Now this is what I'm talking about: apps and the OS being smarter in helping the user organize and find their stuff. By restraining the folders in which it finds pictures to the picture library(s) its excludes the other cutter a user would have to search for. This is a great example of how an app can be smarter about context and helping the user with their data. Its a shame there are apps even today that default the "save" dialog to the application's bin folder rather than to the user's folder's. That's not the file system's fault; it's the app.

2 minutes ago, DeathByVisualStudio wrote

And what do you base this fact on?

Have you ever met a user?

Its a shame there are apps even today that default the "save" dialog to the application's bin folder rather than to the user's folder's.

Exactly, and because people don't understand files and folders, they don't know what to do when presented with this scenario.

38 seconds ago, kettch wrote

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Have you ever met a user?

I've been doing this for 24 years so yes I've met a few.

*snip*

Exactly, and because people don't understand files and folders, they don't know what to do when presented with this scenario.

And an app that just lumps all files of a given type into a single folder is no better. If tag & search is going to work the app needs to collect meta data from the user or context so that the files are findable. It all boils down to the app; both file system and tag & search can fail the user if the app doesn't provide the right assistance especially for those users who won't enter tags when saving a new file nor concern themselves with the location they are saving to. Bad data in, bad data out.

12 hours ago, DeathByVisualStudio wrote

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I've been doing this for 24 years so yes I've met a few.

Ever had to explain that replacing their monitor won't make them lose the files on their desktop? Ever even tried to explain why, when opening a document from Hotmail, they need to save a copy somewhere otherwise it'll end up saved in some temporary folder and they'll never be able to find that version again?

I'm sure you've dealt with users, but I don't think you've really dealt with the masses.

*snip*

And an app that just lumps all files of a given type into a single folder is no better.

You've missed the point. Nobody cares what the application does with the files.

28 minutes ago, AndyC wrote

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Ever had to explain that replacing their monitor won't make them lose the files on their desktop?

No. Do your users also think that if they replace their TVs, the contents of their DVDs get changed? Monitors are known as "displays" for a reason. 

Seriously, now, this IS getting ridiculous. Files are actually pretty natural. In school you have multiple courses, for each course you have your own file folders, exercise books and notebooks, where you put in stuff related to this course. Just like programs have their own "exercise books". Everyone who visited school for more than one month should grasp the concept of files.

How is a jungle of tagged items any more intiuitive than this? For a tag-based system you need to put more work into it actually. Just tagging every picture with "picture" will be more messy than files ever were (and given what you tell about your users, they will do just that).

Also, my best proof that files work are youtube comments. The people there are utter retards. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if instead of brains some of them have some sort of alien control device in their heads to make a case at the galactic assembly to eradicate humanity, yet these imbeciles seem to have no problem to operate a modern computer.

If these dolts can, there is no problem.

I am not a hardcore nerd who thinks that only the elite must know how to operate computers, but if you can't grasp the concept of a file, then sorry, stay away from a computer. It's not feasible to dumb it down to such extend. If you can't grasp the concept that changing your TV doesn't change your DVDs, stay away from TV. If you don't grasp the concept of fuel, stay away from cars.

Some ultra basic things just need to be learnt.

Also, your example of hotmail and temporary files etc. is just a problem of how the application is programmed.