Big.

Edit: I knew it!

GPS won't work as they are in a giant covered building ...

49 minutes ago, figuerres wrote

wow....  so do new staff get a map and a radio in case they are lost in the maze ??

Since the cut backs they are given a piece of string with one end tied to the doors.  How long?  .........  Who knows?

enjoy the show

Herbie

For a couple million $ you can hire a lot of people that don't have these limitations.

2 hours ago, SteveRichter wrote

How soon before they can automate the carts that travel around the warehouse and have a machine that does the picking and replenishment? I do programming in a warehouse and can't  help but notice how labor intensive the process is. A lot of people on the line putting labels on boxes. Boxes being taken off of finished good pallets ( same product code ) and placed on ship pallets ( a mix of product codes to be shipped. ) Fork lift drivers taking the pallets from assembly locations to staging locations and then to the door.  I figure with some Kinect devices, arduino programming and millions of dollars I could automate the entire process. Yet in the Amazon photos I see countless people pushing carts between aisles. What is the holdup?  A social conscience?

 

a few basic things:

1) handling fragile items: humans can tell if an item needs careful handling and a machine may not.

2) odd shapes and sizes: again the human can recognize something and how to pick it up, a machine at this stage can handle standard shapes ok but not all kinds of different ones.

3) exception handling:  all the odd things that can happen that we can "figure out" better than a machine.

handle all 3 of them and then you got something to sell to many places.

also I think that the amazon inventory changes all the time ..   some places use bots in warehouses but in them they have a fixed inventory format - standard containers to move.

1) handling fragile items: humans can tell if an item needs careful handling and a machine may not.

everything to be picked is in a package or a box. The label on the package references handling instructions.

2) odd shapes and sizes: again the human can recognize something and how to pick it up, a machine at this stage can handle standard shapes ok but not all kinds of different ones.

ok. So every item is packaged to the degree necessary so the machine can pick it, transport it and put it away.

3) exception handling:  all the odd things that can happen that we can "figure out" better than a machine.

what I am seeing in the warehouse is exceptions occur frequently because the humans did not follow the instructions in the first place. Pallets are putaway with their barcodes blocked by the pallet next to it. The humans do not scan all the cartons on the pallet so we are not sure that the pallet was built correctly.

I don't know. Google has been able to develop cars that can drive themselves on the highway. Where is the driverless forklift?

2 hours ago, figuerres wrote

1) handling fragile items: humans can tell if an item needs careful handling and a machine may not.

Why not just assume everything is fragile? How would a machine handle a non-fragile item? Surely it wont throw it to the other side of the warehouse...

Are there real world examples of automated warehouse/logistics? I'm under the impression that the USPS is mostly automated, but they still use humans to load the pallets that the machines mostly put together onto the trucks.

Receiving / replenishment is probably a more difficult job than fulfillment. With fulfillment, you need someone to put a sticker on an item and toss it onto a conveyor. 

If you were to see a robot anywhere, I could envision a box making / packaging robot being deployed. But, to the best of my knowledge, Amazon packs boxes by hand. They don't do it because they are lazy or inefficient, quite the opposite.

-Josh

2 days ago, Bas wrote

I'm pretty sure I saw someone wheeling the Ark of the Covenant in there.

Edit: I knew it!

It would be kinda cool to own, but I don't know how long I'd be able to keep my eyes closed.

1 day ago, SteveRichter wrote

Where is the driverless forklift?

The driverless forklift very much does exist and has in some places for years.  (I know a guy who works on them,)  Fully automated picking is used in some places to great effect.  Amazon certainly could build such a system if they decided to do it.  The fact that they still use humans says that they have found that to be more efficient/cost effective.  For something on that scale, I imagine that it would be more efficient to let humans handle it.  Otherwise you would have to have a smart conveyor system that would make UPS look like grade school.

1) cut down on the number of people or

2) cut down on the jobs being automated or

3) quit bitching about freeloaders who don't work and still want luxuries like food and housing.

Pick 1.

1 minute ago, ScanIAm wrote

Aaaaand why not let a human do the work?  Either we

1) cut down on the number of people or

2) cut down on the jobs being automated or

3) quit bitching about freeloaders who don't work and still want luxuries like food and housing.

Pick 1.

4) Add new jobs to do new things.

5) Do more complex things - automate the boring bits and use people to do the creative bits.

There's no reason why the total amount of work output by the human race should remain constant. So I dispute that more automation of jobs inevitably leads to less work for people to do overall.

2 days ago, SteveRichter wrote

How soon before they can automate the carts that travel around the warehouse and have a machine that does the picking and replenishment? I do programming in a warehouse and can't  help but notice how labor intensive the process is. A lot of people on the line putting labels on boxes. Boxes being taken off of finished good pallets ( same product code ) and placed on ship pallets ( a mix of product codes to be shipped. ) Fork lift drivers taking the pallets from assembly locations to staging locations and then to the door.  I figure with some Kinect devices, arduino programming and millions of dollars I could automate the entire process. Yet in the Amazon photos I see countless people pushing carts between aisles. What is the holdup?  A social conscience?

 

Variable package sizes. Honestly. Think about it. USPS may be onto something...

1 minute ago, ScanIAm wrote

@evildictaitor: You vastly overestimate the skill level of the average person.  In fact, 50% of them are below average!!!

No, only half.

38 minutes ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

4) Add new jobs to do new things.

5) Do more complex things - automate the boring bits and use people to do the creative bits.

There's no reason why the total amount of work output by the human race should remain constant. So I dispute that more automation of jobs inevitably leads to less work for people to do overall.

To answer this seriously:

What jobs are going to replace the ones that are being automated?  If you buy a robot to replace one man, you need to pick from one of options 1-5.  If your argument is that we'll just find a new or more creative job for him, fine.  But another reason for buying a robot is to replace many men.  Now you have to find something for many men to do. 

I don't doubt the ideal of finding new and more better thinky-time work for displaced box stackers is a laudable goal, but it isn't always practical, and it has never fully worked. 

The robots don't innovate, build, install and repair them self.

1 day ago, SteveRichter wrote

*snip*

ok. So every item is packaged to the degree necessary so the machine can pick it, transport it and put it away.

*snip*

This isn't a far fetched idea either. Walk through a Costco (local availability may vary) and look at how their items are packaged. They dictate packaging to their vendors for most items. Even fiddly things like pens and razors are packaged in a common form factor. Everything else is in boxes.

That may get onerous for some vendors and items, but it could work for many.

7 hours ago, fabian wrote

@ScanIAm: What jobs are going to replace the ones that are being automated?

The robots don't innovate, build, install and repair them self.

Yet.

And for the rest, this is what progress looks like.

We are always looking for more efficient ways of doing things.

1 day ago, fabian wrote

@ScanIAm: What jobs are going to replace the ones that are being automated?

The robots don't innovate, build, install and repair them self.

Nor will the displaced warehouse workers.  Jobs aren't modular.

• Reduce the amount of hours worked in a standard workweek.
• Better incentives for going to school/specialized training, including paid time off. (This kills two birds with one stone - takes people out of the workforce and makes them more relevant when they come back in).

The idea that a ditch digger is going to turn into an architect once his job is replaced by a backhoe is just not reality.

13 hours ago, Bass wrote

• Reduce the amount of hours worked in a standard workweek.
• Better incentives for going to school/specialized training, including paid time off. (This kills two birds with one stone - takes people out of the workforce and makes them more relevant when they come back in).

[/quote]

When I was young (quite a while ago) this is what we were told that life was going to be like when we grew up.  (Of course I never did grow up - but you get the idea)

2 hours ago, ScanIAm wrote

*snip*

The idea that a ditch digger is going to turn into an architect once his job is replaced by a backhoe is just not reality.

What's equally ridiculous is this notion that if everybody could just go to college, then they would no longer need to be ditch diggers. There are ditch diggers who, even with education, shouldn't ever be a backhoe operator.

10 hours ago, ScanIAm wrote

I agree with the ideals of taking people out of hard or dangerous work, but unless we pull them off the game board, they still need something to do.  The bootstrappers who complain about freeloaders aren't going to allow those folks to work less hours through public support, so again.  I'm not hearing any actual solution to what they will do. 

Yes, if we automate stuff lots of unskilled jobs vanish in the naieve very short term, but if a consequence of doing so means that we can compete once again with countries like India and China by being able to build stuff reliably, cheaply and at scale then those unskilled workers can work in my big callcentre selling our cheap wares to joe average in China, India and around the world.

It seems to me that deciding not to automate because we have lots of people is a pretty silly notion. Unskilled labour in the west is far too expensive for a global market. If someone in China is willing to sew socks for $1 a day, we shouldn't try and compete on their terms. If we're going to compete, we need to do it with technology.

Unskilled people slot into the workforce when the economy is good because there's money to go around and because demand is high. The worst thing we can do for our unskilled workforce is to cripple our own economy by failing to update it to be competitive - because in a recession, unskilled workers are the easiest to fire, the most likely to find it hard to get jobs and the most rapidly shrinking part of the economy.

So I contest quite the reverse. If we automate more, we'll be more competitive, which will drive the economy to have higher exports, leading to more domestic jobs which can be filled by unskilled labour.

4 hours ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@evildictaitor: Why are we so expensive compared to China?

Because working people for 20 hours a day in horrible conditions for a wage that barely buys you a bowl of rice for the day is not considered acceptable in western society. Also because child labour is not acceptable here. Buying products that are made that way somehow is, though. NIMBY, I guess.

1 day ago, evildictait​or wrote

It seems to me that deciding not to automate because we have lots of people is a pretty silly notion. Unskilled labour in the west is far too expensive for a global market. If someone in China is willing to sew socks for $1 a day, we shouldn't try and compete on their terms. If we're going to compete, we need to do it with technology.

I'm not against automation, but if we automate, and that displaces a bunch of manual labor, we have to accept the 3 premises I mentioned previously.  We, as a society, have to accept that there will be people idle.  Hopefully they will be training for something new, but not every one is suited to that.  And until the economy adjusts to this automation, a not-insubstantial population will be essentially unemployable.

And when I say 'we have to accept it', I mean that we have to quit this anti-entitlement BS that gets trotted out by the conservatives and libertarians every time this situation pops up.

It's your own responsibility to keep your market value up, not societies.

7 hours ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@ScanIAm: society didnt pay for my vb.net to c#.net switch, why should I pay for another guy for a different switch?

It's your own responsibility to keep your market value up, not societies.

Qu'ils mangent de la brioche.

14 hours ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@ScanIAm: society didnt pay for my vb.net to c#.net switch, why should I pay for another guy for a different switch?

Society didn't eliminate the concept of computer programming. You'd be singing a completely different tune had that been the case.

It's your own responsibility to keep your market value up, not societies.

If a society bears no responsibility to help the individual adapt, why have a society at all?

1 day ago, Bass wrote

*snip*

Qu'ils mangent de la brioche.

I think what Maddus is saying is 'let them starve.'

1 day ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@ScanIAm: society didnt pay for my vb.net to c#.net switch, why should I pay for another guy for a different switch?

Yes, because the whole world economy revolves around .net 

If 'the other guy' cannot afford to retrain, then he will be out of work. If he is out of work he will starve. His family will starve. He will become desperate and will turn to crime to feed his family. He will start robbing people. 

He may, one day, decide to rob you.

Most of your 'I'm all right, Jack' monologues never account for the fact that politicians need to take into account the cost of every decision they make. It's very easy for you to say 'Stuff 'em! If they're poor then that's their problem' because you don't have to deal with the consequences of that decision. 

It's still their responsibility to get a decent job skill. When electronics did not get me a job, I learned how to write professional software and I'm doing ok.

My father in law went from being a bank employee to a bus driver.

There are plenty of jobs out there, giving people free money only makes them dependent and not self sufficient.

If my father in law would hit rock bottom, I would help him out, sponsor his education into a different field. Why? Because he also helped me when I needed him.

Quid pro quo.

In no way I am saying let them starve, I'm saying that people should have incentive to get a job. And the risk of starving (no one ever starves to death, always a charity willing to help) is what is creating this incentive, take that away and people become lax. Or do you really think you have 40 million people starving in the US?

1 hour ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@Ray7: Only time I get robbed, is when I get paid, each month, for half my income.

Yeah. But on the other hand, you spend most of your day robbing everyone else. I mean using their roads without paying a toll. Or whenever you deliver your kids to school and don't pay the couple-hundred dollars to pay them for their time. Or whenever you go and see your GP and fail to stump up your cash.

The great thing is, though, that you can always go to a different country and you get to pay different taxes! Try Saudi Arabia - they have stricter laws on some things, but lower taxes than the Netherlands.

Or try Somalia! Their country will never charge you taxes, and you can pave your own damn roads!

If you don't like paying your taxes, move to somewhere else. The world doesn't have a homogenized tax system, Maddus. So put up or shut up.

You move!

32 minutes ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@evildictaitor: I'm quite happy to keep my income and pay for the stuff that I use.

You move!

I don't mind paying 45% taxes in the UK, even though there are loads of countries with lower taxes (like the US). The reason? Because in the UK we have lower gun crime (thanks to our police), higher security (thanks to our home office), punch well above our weight in all business and foreign discussions (thanks to our foreign office). We have health care that's free at the point of use; it's also better than the US, and they have a tendancy to prescribe what works rather than what's expensive.

We have a second-to-none education system that regularly beats the pants off everyone else at key metrics like innovation - many of our government departments are waaay more effective than their US counterparts despite a tiny fraction of the money spent on them, and our roads, whilst not quite paved with gold, do the job admirably.

Even our TV is better because it's not filled with wall-to-wall adverts for pills that the vast majority of people watching aren't qualified to properly assess for safety or effectiveness.

The reason I don't mind paying 45% taxes is because living in the UK for 45% of my income is a great deal! I would certainly be on less than 55% of my current income if I had started life in Nigeria or Somalia - that's for damn sure. And every country I've been to in the world with lower taxes, just has different things you have to pay for.

My US colleagues are not better off with lower taxes, because they get less efficient services (like heathcare) and they cost more to boot. They also have to pay state taxes and road tolls and health insurance which takes their monthly outgoings much higher than the headline "federal tax" rate.

And my Saudi colleagues are not better off with lower taxes. They have to travel much more, and pay extortionate amounts to ensure personal protection of them and their families. They might not be paying for police, but they're sure as hell paying for protection.

45% taxes isn't a big deal to me. It's just the cost of entry to the club of awesome that is the UK.

If you don't like the cost of the ticket, Maddus, don't go to the gig. If you want to pay for stuff yourself, you're always free to leave and find a country that is closer to your right wing fantasy of perfect individualism. The Netherlands isn't going to change into a right-wing land of rainbows and Reagans in your lifetime. So learn to live with it, or learn to live somewhere else.

And all what you have mentioned will be worthless in a decade, because your government cannot afford it anymore. It will go into decay, and all those months that you have forked over 45% of your labor under the threat of force (wich basically is slavery) will be in vain.

And ofcourse you like paying taxes, you are in the group that receives the most from government. Roads, healthcare, education, job security, yadda yadda yadda, all at the expense of others.

If you like paying taxes so much, fork me over $20.000,-, I'll spend it on projects for the good of the community, I promise.

If you don't like the cost of the ticket, Maddus, don't go to the gig.

I don't leave my community, just because I don't like the rules the guys with guns force upon me. I will not run away, I will fight to make my community free from the tyranny that people like yourself place upon them.

You try telling the people in Somalia that! You can always leave Somalia, if you don't agree. You brought this onto yourself.

And btw, buying a ticket to see a show is a VOLUNTAIRY transaction,..

Something that I've come into contact with recently.

My wife suffured an injury and I want to take time off to care for her. My free days are all spent, since it is not allowed to transfer them to next year, so I asked my employer if it is OK that I take some unpaid leave.

Problem with that is, that I have no income for a month. The money is not an issue, since I prepare myself for these types of things. But the myriad of taxes, government insurances, tax rebate and tax cut programs making it very difficult for me to take a month off.

Also our fantastic government healthcare system is failing to provide care for my wife. So now I have to fallback on local members of my community (hi mom and dad!) for help.

So again, why in the blazing hell I'm I paying so much (under the threat of force) to somebody who refuses to help me and even when they help me, they do a piss poor job?

I hope that you never come into trapped in this system, it's not a pleasant place to be.

What those programs WON'T do and AREN'T MEANT to do is give you free money just so you don't have to dip into savings when problems arise.

And, it seems that you've got a wonderful little social welfare program set up with your parents.  Good for you.  I'm sure it's a figurative lifesaver.

Wouldn't it be awesome if everyone could have the same thing?

45 minutes ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@evildictaitor: And they might not be better off, but at least they are FREE.

Something that I've come into contact with recently.

My wife suffured an injury and I want to take time off to care for her. My free days are all spent, since it is not allowed to transfer them to next year, so I asked my employer if it is OK that I take some unpaid leave.

Problem with that is, that I have no income for a month. The money is not an issue, since I prepare myself for these types of things. But the myriad of taxes, government insurances, tax rebate and tax cut programs making it very difficult for me to take a month off.

Also our fantastic government healthcare system is failing to provide care for my wife. So now I have to fallback on local members of my community (hi mom and dad!) for help.

So again, why in the blazing hell I'm I paying so much (under the threat of force) to somebody who refuses to help me and even when they help me, they do a piss poor job?

I hope that you never come into trapped in this system, it's not a pleasant place to be.

So what is your solution? To pay no tax and take care of it yourself?

I'm all for helping my community (that's the idea behind my wp7 app and the idea for the wp8 one, helping the community, this one). I'm not for extortion of money by the threat of force, to be handed out to people that do not belong to the community. I'm willing to help you, so that in a later stage you might return the favor.

Right now, I have two communities that I'm a part of. One we forged ourselves with bloodties and friendships (this includes collegues) and one wich forces itself through my front door and demands that I pay him. One of these communities is helping me, the other is not.

Now, you do raise an excellent point. What about the people that do not have a community to rely on? Well, they can join one that wants to have them. Last time I looked the salvation army is always looking to help people. These communities will expect something in return and if you don't agree then you can leave and join another community. And all this can be accomplished, without physically moving.

Sure you need a government to protect communities from harm, but you do not need a state telling them how to run their community.

Taxation is a sure way of making healthcare less efficient and more expensive.

When we entered the emergency room, the woman behind the counter was busy entering war and peace into her computer for the neccesairy forms to claim money from the government, instead of providing care for my wife.

42 minutes ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@evildictaitor: And they might not be better off, but at least they are FREE.

Nope. I'm free to have holidays abroad or to buy expensive cars - which most people in entire continents like Africa and South America can't (because of poverty). I'm free to watch high quality television without needing to watch fourty minutes of adverts an hour (my US collegaues are deeply jealous).

I'm free do business with whomever and whenever I want (unlike in Russia and China), And I'm free to express my displeasure at the government both privately and publically through the press (unlike those in many countries like Iran).

I'm free to become senior in business without needing to join "the party" like in China, and I can stand to become Prime Minister in this country without needing spend my entire time in office going from fund-raiser to fund-raiser like they do in the US.

I'm free to get legal attention if I'm assaulted, my property is taken or if I am abused, which beats almost any previous era in history, and if I were black or female or jewish or disabled, I would be free to work in Industry at the same terms as the rest of the workforce - and be protected by law from any discriminatory employer.

And when it comes to business, we have a higher share of India's foreign market than America, we deal better with China, we used to own Iran, Iraq and most of the middle east. We speak English which gives us a native advantage in Africa and in North America, we have the EU by the balls over our rebate and routinely make ourselves unpopular there by forcing a British agenda, and we can veto practically anything at the UN.

I'm free from fear of attack by terrorists (unlike most of the middle-east and Israel), the secret police (like China and Russia) and by other states (like Gaza, Syria, Turkey and large parts of Africa).

And for all of this - just 45% of my gross income? A deal-and-a-half I'll say. I don't need to present my daughter to the local lord for marriage like in the "good old days" and I don't need to spend 80% of my income on my rent to an abusive landlord.

In fact, I would contest that the UK right now is freer than any other place in any other country in history.

My wife suffured an injury and I want to take time off to care for her. My free days are all spent, since it is not allowed to transfer them to next year, so I asked my employer if it is OK that I take some unpaid leave.

Problem with that is, that I have no income for a month. The money is not an issue, since I prepare myself for these types of things. But the myriad of taxes, government insurances, tax rebate and tax cut programs making it very difficult for me to take a month off.

BS. The reason you can't get a month off is because of your capitalist employer not wanting to pay you to not work. The government doesn't even come into the equation.

Also our fantastic government healthcare system is failing to provide care for my wife. So now I have to fallback on local members of my community (hi mom and dad!) for help.

It's still a whole lot better than if you were poor and the hospital said they weren't even going to admit her until you stump up $50,000.

So again, why in the blazing hell I'm I paying so much (under the threat of force) to somebody who refuses to help me and even when they help me, they do a piss poor job?

But you do not live in North Korea. You are free to leave at any time. Renounce your citizenship and move to Somalia. There you'll find that your wife gets top-notch treatment for any ailment, but you'll have to fly her at your own expense to a private clinic in Switzerland to even see a basic dentist.

The Netherlands don't have you under house arrest, and you are free to leave if you don't like it there. If you do like it, it must be worth all them taxes you're paying.

You keep talking about how consumers can always vote with their feet and how choice is the thing Maddus. And yet here you are - faced with a choice of Somalia or the Netherlands and the opportunity to vote with your feet and your wallet (by leaving and renouncing your citizenship).

And yet here we are, Maddus. Here we are.

5 minutes ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@Ray7: Yes and insure for risks that I cannot bear. I don't need insurance for a trip to the dentist or a doctor, I need insurance for two months of cancer treatments.

And what happens when your health provider decides that it would be too expensive to treat your cancer? What happens when you exceed your cover for treatment. What happens when your health provider's legal team find a get out clause that means you don't get treated at all?

Taxation is a sure way of making healthcare less efficient and more expensive.

And private health providers often find that the least expensive way to treat their customers is to not treat them.

When we entered the emergency room, the woman behind the counter was busy entering war and peace into her computer for the neccesairy forms to claim money from the government, instead of providing care for my wife.

That is an admin problem, not a problem with free healthcare. When I was admitted to hospital a few years ago, no one asked me to fill anything in and no one asked for the number of my insurance provider.

Two months of cancer treatment? You think that'll cover it?

Our household allready owes the State a whopping 100.000 euros and it's climbing, FAST!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

You have phony wealth, it's on borrowed money. If I go to the bank and borrow 10 million euros, does that make me a millionaire?

@Ray7:

And what happens when your health provider decides that it would be too expensive to treat your cancer?

That would be a violation of contract.

And private health providers often find that the least expensive way to treat their customers is to not treat them.

Last time I checked, no cure no pay. And if they have a poor track record, you switch. Like you can also switch to Apple or Linux when you are not happy with Windows,.. See how this works, free choice?

That is an admin problem, not a problem with free healthcare. When I was admitted to hospital a few years ago, no one asked me to fill anything in and no one asked for the number of my insurance provider.

Free healthcare? They work for free? Did not know that.

Someone is paying, just because you don't see the bill doesnt mean it doesnt get paid.

24 minutes ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@ScanIAm: Yes, that would be awesome! If everyone would have their own community of people to fall back on. A community wich they could CHOOSE to be a member of.

You choose to live in the netherlands.  You may not have the option to choose from which womb you fall, but you certainly don't have to stay where you land.

I'm all for helping my community (that's the idea behind my wp7 app and the idea for the wp8 one, helping the community, this one). I'm not for extortion of money by the threat of force

Please show me the legal code that forcefully keeps you chained to your country.

Right now, I have two communities that I'm a part of. One we forged ourselves with bloodties and friendships (this includes collegues) and one wich forces itself through my front door and demands that I pay him. One of these communities is helping me, the other is not.

So leave.

Now, you do raise an excellent point. What about the people that do not have a community to rely on? Well, they can join one that wants to have them. Last time I looked the salvation army is always looking to help people. These communities will expect something in return and if you don't agree then you can leave and join another community. And all this can be accomplished, without physically moving.

Please re-read what you just wrote and replace 'salvation army' with 'netherlands'.  Do so while looking into a mirror for best effect.

Sure you need a government to protect communities from harm, but you do not need a state telling them how to run their community.

You seem to confuse the word 'need' and 'want' an aweful lot.

12 minutes ago, ScanIAm wrote

You choose to live in the netherlands.  You may not have the option to choose from which womb you fall, but you certainly don't have to stay where you land.

Now when did I choose that? I didnt choose anything, those choices were made for me.

Please show me the legal code that forcefully keeps you chained to your country.

My Dutch passport and nationality? Immigration laws of other countries?

So leave.

I wont run, I'm going to clean up this mess that the socialists left and debate people that want to keep spending other people's money on themselves.

Please re-read what you just wrote and replace 'salvation army' with 'netherlands'.  Do so while looking into a mirror for best effect.

For me to leave the Netherlands would require me to physically move, for me to join a different community, would not. See the difference?

34 seconds ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@evildictaitor: And yet, they are more free then you. 

You have a very weird definition of freedom.

Freedom != individualism.

You have phony wealth, it's on borrowed money. If I got to the bank and borrow 10 million euros, does that make me a millionaire? 

If you turn that 10m euros into 20m then yes, you are a millionaire.

Also you are looking at the wrong numbers. You want "public debt" if you're complaining about government debt, not "external debt". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt). The Netherlands is about $25k per person worth of public debt.

Most people in Europe, if you include their assets (like their car, their pension, their house etc), are massively wealthy. So it's not all phoney wealth. It's just Maddus having another hyperbole about governments.

Our household allready owes the State a whopping 100.000 euros and it's climbing, FAST!

Then you should pay your bills (although God knows how you managed to rack up such a fine - have you been forgetting to pay your taxes Maddus?).

I, on the other hand, owe not a penny to the British government. They owe money to other people, but that's not really my problem. At the drop of a hat I could leave and that debt wouldn't follow me.

Free healthcare? They work for free? Did not know that.

Not free - but about a third of the cost of US healthcare. And by "work" I mean, cures more people of critical conditions, has lower waiting times, higher satisfaction, lower infant mortality and longer life expectancies.

 

@Ray7:

*snip*

That would be a violation of contract.

No it wouldn't. The health providers are under no obligation to provide treatment that they don't feel is viable.  You could go somewhere else, but you won't find a health provider who will fund your cancer treatment indefinitely.

Last time I checked, no cure no pay.

What, so you're saying that if you're not cured, your health provider will give you your premiums back?  That explains why I get my home insurance premiums returned each year if I'm not burgled.... no, my bad. That doesn't happen. 

And if they have a poor track record, you switch.

The problem with that logic is that you only discover they're a bad provider when they refuse to pay your medical bill. Then what? Take 'em to court while trying to raise the money for your cancer treatment?

Like you can also switch to Apple or Linux when you are not happy with Windows,.. See how this works, free choice?

Free healthcare? They work for free? Did not know that.

You know what I meant; pretending you don't makes you look desperate. 'Free' in that I don't have to sell my house to pay for it.

1 minute ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

Now when did I choose that? I didnt choose anything, those choices were made for me.

You chose not to leave the Netherlands just right now. There again! And again!

In fact, every second that you sit here reading this, and not picking up your passport or ringing up the airport for a flight is a choice by inaction of yours to remain in the Netherlands.

Somalia has no immigration laws, and it's not all that hard to get a visa or citizenship in another country like America if you put your mind to it and have some skills that they might want.

2 minutes ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

I wont run, I'm going to clean up this mess that the socialists left 

Ruh-h-eally.

And what have you done so far?

4 minutes ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

*snip*

Now when did I choose that? I didnt choose anything, those choices were made for me.

Nope.  If it rains, do youI say "tut, tut, nothing I can do" or do you open an umbrella.  Or move inside.

If you feel your government is soaking you, move.

My Dutch passport and nationality? Immigration laws of other countries?

Are you asking a question here?  It seems to me that most countries in the world would be happy to receive a skilled software developer.

Honestly, when has a white, male of western european origin had trouble immigrating.

I wont run, I'm going to clean up this mess that the socialists left and debate people that want to keep spending other people's money on themselves.

Well, you're not going to clean up anything by spending all day complaining about netherlandian taxes on a software forum.

For me to leave the Netherlands would require me to physically move, for me to join a different community, would not. See the difference?

Nope.

5 minutes ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

*snip*

My Dutch passport and nationality? Immigration laws of other countries?

All obstacles that can be crossed if you really wanted to. Apparently, the cost of the taxes isn't yet bad enough to make you want to go through the trouble to do that, so it can't really be that bad.

Besides, you're Dutch, and if there's anything Dutch people love (myself included) it's complaining. You would be terribly unhappy if you had nothing to complain about (though I suppose you could then complain about having nothing to complain about...)

I wont run, I'm going to clean up this mess that the socialists left

The socialists haven't been in power for quite a while. The last time we had a significant left wing segment in parliament was Paars II (which was also the last time we had a left wing prime minister). And that's even if you want to consider the PvdA to be truly left wing, which I don't (and when was the last time GroenLinks were in power? Oh that's right, never). In fact, since the second world war, almost every single cabinet has been either centre-right or pure centre. So when exactly did the socialists make this mess you speak of?

All of Balkenende's cabinets have been centre right (except possibly for Balkenende IV, which at least had the PvdA in it). Rutte I was also centre right but more right-leaning I think. So I guess that means things have improved drastically since Wim Kok left the office. Do you think they have?

Well guess what happened in this thread. I am really, really tired of this.