Channel 9 Forums - Coffeehouse - MSNerd http://mschnlnine.vo.llnwd.net/d1/Dev/App_Themes/C9/images/feedimage.png Channel 9 Forums - Coffeehouse - MSNerd http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums Channel 9 keeps you up to date with the latest news and behind the scenes info from Microsoft that developers love to keep up with. From LINQ to SilverLight – Watch videos and hear about all the cool technologies coming and the people behind them. http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums en Tue, 21 May 2013 09:54:43 GMT Tue, 21 May 2013 09:54:43 GMT Rev9 20 -20 -1 Coffeehouse - MSNerd Looks like people are applying some credence to what MSNerd has been saying. 

Windows 8 in October and Apollo on all generations of Windows Phones?

Check out the rumours going round at

 http://www.reddit.com/r/casualiama/comments/r4q5l/iama_someone_who_leaks_information_about/

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/7fcce81d1b604640b05ba01c009f0964#7fcce81d1b604640b05ba01c009f0964 Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:39:02 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/7fcce81d1b604640b05ba01c009f0964#7fcce81d1b604640b05ba01c009f0964 Ian Walker 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Ian2/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd @Ian2: Twit seems to think Win8 will RTM in July, with a retail release in October. Heard it in Tuesday's Tech News Today.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/fe32944a04754fc29bc8a01c00f01c71#fe32944a04754fc29bc8a01c00f01c71 Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:34:13 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/fe32944a04754fc29bc8a01c00f01c71#fe32944a04754fc29bc8a01c00f01c71 Scott 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/spivonious/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd MS Nerd pretty much confirms what us "haters" have been saying all along. SL is dead (and indirectly WPF). They also seem to draw the line between desktop and WinRT/Metro; sounds like the desktop is dead too. And XNA? Gonna be dead sooner or later. Everything is going WinRT.

Sure you can still develop against all of the dead technologies but you can still also write stuff in VB6.

If this is true they're drawing a pretty hard line with a big bet on everything flipping to W8 and WinRT. No compromise for sure.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/bf1ff4f6d237486997b3a01c013dda98#bf1ff4f6d237486997b3a01c013dda98 Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:17:16 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/bf1ff4f6d237486997b3a01c013dda98#bf1ff4f6d237486997b3a01c013dda98 DeathByVisualStudio 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/DeathByVisualStudio/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd @DeathByVisualStudio: Speaking of VB6, WinRT is really sounding like a modern version of the VB6 runtime. I wondered today how Windows would be today if WinRT had come out with Windows XP.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/c9578415fb2745479532a01c014c0e64#c9578415fb2745479532a01c014c0e64 Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:08:58 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/c9578415fb2745479532a01c014c0e64#c9578415fb2745479532a01c014c0e64 Scott 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/spivonious/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd Long term, obviously WinRT is the goal. I believe Microsoft has all but stated that from day one. WinRT is the future replacement of Win32. However, it's going to be some time before that happens, and it's unlikely W8 will even still be a supported OS by that time. IOW, it's not something to be concerned about when making any decisions about what you should do today.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/ccf6160b82a842c3be9da01c014db2d3#ccf6160b82a842c3be9da01c014db2d3 Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:14:57 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/ccf6160b82a842c3be9da01c014db2d3#ccf6160b82a842c3be9da01c014db2d3 William Kempf 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/wkempf/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd @DeathByVisualStudio:WinRT is really .net pushed down a level to operate native(somewhat) on windows.    As long as I can use C# I dont care about a few Api changes.    Oh,  of course, the non professionals can keep using VB.   I wish Anders could squash them permanently.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/8d00818ceb5c4b48bc42a01c014ea429#8d00818ceb5c4b48bc42a01c014ea429 Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:18:23 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/8d00818ceb5c4b48bc42a01c014ea429#8d00818ceb5c4b48bc42a01c014ea429 TexasToast 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/TexasToast/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd

, TexasToast wrote

*snip*

   Oh,  of course, the non professionals can keep using VB.   I wish Anders could squash them permanently.

 

OUCH!

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/e96ee657c71f4da68314a01c014fd0df#e96ee657c71f4da68314a01c014fd0df Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:22:40 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/e96ee657c71f4da68314a01c014fd0df#e96ee657c71f4da68314a01c014fd0df Dave Williamson 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/davewill/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd

, DeathByVisualStudio wrote

MS Nerd pretty much confirms what us "haters" have been saying all along. SL is dead (and indirectly WPF). They also seem to draw the line between desktop and WinRT/Metro; sounds like the desktop is dead too. And XNA? Gonna be dead sooner or later. Everything is going WinRT.

Sure you can still develop against all of the dead technologies but you can still also write stuff in VB6.

If this is true they're drawing a pretty hard line with a big bet on everything flipping to W8 and WinRT. No compromise for sure.

 

well what about xaml in WIn 8 / Metro ??? 

WPF and silverlight might be "dead"  but if xmal markup still works then wpf lives on with a name change and some plumbing changes ...

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/72db91c2bc2a4ce0b434a01c0154c5fa#72db91c2bc2a4ce0b434a01c0154c5fa Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:40:43 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/72db91c2bc2a4ce0b434a01c0154c5fa#72db91c2bc2a4ce0b434a01c0154c5fa figuerres 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/figuerres/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd IMO Microsoft is limiting WinRT to Metro applications simply because the application stack hasn't been fully built-out yet and it's easier to initially support a very rigid set of specifications before opening things up. They've already admitted that the XAML used by the Metro application stack doesn't support all the fancy databinding of SL and WPF. That's why that can't push the new application stack for LOB desktop applications.

I predict that by the time .NET 5.0 rolls out (i.e. when WinRT will be fully baked), you'll be able to select different WinRT client profiles (for either desktop vs Metro-style applications) for the target framework in your projects. Both types of applications will be running .NET 5.0 on top of WinRT (if you happen to choose C# or VB as your language preference, that is), and both will use a unified version of XAML.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/f88d0ab070964a60a3e0a01c0157a07f#f88d0ab070964a60a3e0a01c0157a07f Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:51:06 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/f88d0ab070964a60a3e0a01c0157a07f#f88d0ab070964a60a3e0a01c0157a07f cbae 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/cbae/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd

, DeathByVisualStudio wrote

MS Nerd pretty much confirms what us "haters" have been saying all along. SL is dead (and indirectly WPF).

Silverlight as a runtime will continue to be used in three areas: Xbox 360 apps, Windows Phone 7.x apps, & LoB apps. This is approximately a hybrid of the capabilities of versions 4 & 5 of the Silverlight redistributable. Microsoft will continue to release security, stability, bug-fix & feature-fix updates.

Haters gonna hate...

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/9e76f8dd6a684ec48620a01c01588a52#9e76f8dd6a684ec48620a01c01588a52 Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:54:25 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/9e76f8dd6a684ec48620a01c01588a52#9e76f8dd6a684ec48620a01c01588a52 Bas 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Bas/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd

, Bas wrote

*snip**snip*

Haters gonna hate...

You left out a sentence...

Silverlight as a runtime will continue to be used in three areas: Xbox 360 apps, Windows Phone 7.x apps, & LoB apps. This is approximately a hybrid of the capabilities of versions 4 & 5 of the Silverlight redistributable. Microsoft will continue to release security, stability, bug-fix & feature-fix updates. There is no v6 release planned for Silverlight in the current sense.

...how disingenuous of you.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/30ccc2fc92494538af3da01d0003ed61#30ccc2fc92494538af3da01d0003ed61 Fri, 23 Mar 2012 00:14:17 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/30ccc2fc92494538af3da01d0003ed61#30ccc2fc92494538af3da01d0003ed61 DeathByVisualStudio 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/DeathByVisualStudio/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd Sorry folks I'm not one of those "Yeah! Skills transfer! Woohoo!" kind of guys. If I were a selfish a-hole then maybe I could be like that but I actually give more that a rats behind about my customers.

A couple of the issues I have with Microsoft's approach include:

  1. WinRT is not backwards compatible with W7. It's W8 or legacy; there's no transition. IMO that's hard for business to swallow (or expensive as even if you take an MVVM approach -- you'd still have a WPF/SL client and a separate WinRT/Metro client).
  2. The apparent "F the customer's investment in current technologies (WPF/Silverlight)" attitude. You can talk all you want about how these apps still run in W8 but it does not address the "thousand little cuts" Microsoft has made to the OS to make mouse + keyboard terrible on W8 and the desktop a second class citizen. More importantly it doesn't address customers who have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in the past couple of years investing in W7, SL, and WPF only to be shown that those investments have no future.

And let's not forget the longer Microsoft leaves things in this holding pattern for business the less important of a player they become.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/f0e2942afb4b4baaa30aa01d0009593c#f0e2942afb4b4baaa30aa01d0009593c Fri, 23 Mar 2012 00:34:02 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/f0e2942afb4b4baaa30aa01d0009593c#f0e2942afb4b4baaa30aa01d0009593c DeathByVisualStudio 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/DeathByVisualStudio/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd Oh, so you did see that reply then. You just kind of... decided to disregard every part of it that didn't fit your message. Nice!

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/b4f45efb1fd64129aa71a01d00104700#b4f45efb1fd64129aa71a01d00104700 Fri, 23 Mar 2012 00:59:15 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/b4f45efb1fd64129aa71a01d00104700#b4f45efb1fd64129aa71a01d00104700 Bas 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Bas/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd @DeathByVisualStudio: I'm not sure I see your point.

Even if we got a new version of WPF instead of WinRT, I'm afraid that you would still have to develop and maintain two separate clients: with very few exceptions, "Metrofied" desktop apps are gigantic piles of failure. The converse would be even worse.

This sucks, of course, but it's nothing new: it happened every time the Windows UI underwent a major facelift. Sure, this time they also grafted a few extra limbs and changed the blood type, but this is kind of immaterial at this point.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/3922992544244149ba34a01d00208045#3922992544244149ba34a01d00208045 Fri, 23 Mar 2012 01:58:19 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/3922992544244149ba34a01d00208045#3922992544244149ba34a01d00208045 Blue Ink 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Blue Ink/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd Well. Taking one small chunk of this microcosm if WinRT helps to promote the equivalent of 'full screen Silverlight apps' (as WinRT apps) then that is a good thing in my book.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/736e00bb6b944e7bab63a01d007ae772#736e00bb6b944e7bab63a01d007ae772 Fri, 23 Mar 2012 07:27:28 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/736e00bb6b944e7bab63a01d007ae772#736e00bb6b944e7bab63a01d007ae772 Ian Walker 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Ian2/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd This field is in constant change. That doesn't mean you've lost anything in your investment. For consumers, the old stuff still runs. Microsoft has always (and still is) gone much further to maintain compatibility than any other software company. Hell, MFC applications are still being built and run today. I was doing MFC back in the early 90s, about 5 lifetimes ago in this field. So don't give me any of that crap about WPF/SL being obsolete. It's not. It's just no longer new and hot. If you care about being new and hot, you'll be changing tech every year. Sorry, that's the way the entire industry is. But YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIVE ON THAT BLEEDING EDGE. You can write your apps in Silverlight, WPF, WinForms, hell, even MFC, and be confident that Microsoft will continue to support you. I'm beyond sick of hearing about the death of ANYTHING, and the "blah blah, think of the customers and their puppies" is like fingernails on a blackboard. Your customers don't care what you use to develop the app. They may care about the changes in Win8, but that's not relevant to your app. Frankly, though, it's the power users that are usually the ones to * about this stuff, not your typical customer. If you feel that strongly (i.e. you're not going to put an ounce of thought into it, and instead be driven by emotion) than leave the damn platform already. Two years from now when you're making the same damn complaints about whatever platform you moved on to, I hope you realize how stupid you sounded.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/8c6d70d4fb024a64a5eca01d00ed6d1b#8c6d70d4fb024a64a5eca01d00ed6d1b Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:24:26 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/8c6d70d4fb024a64a5eca01d00ed6d1b#8c6d70d4fb024a64a5eca01d00ed6d1b William Kempf 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/wkempf/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd

, Bas wrote

Oh, so you did see that reply then. You just kind of... decided to disregard every part of it that didn't fit your message. Nice!

What? That SL will still be used in Xbox 360 apps, Windows Phone 7.x apps, & LoB apps? Did you think they were going to pull it or something. Sure it will be there but just like VB6 and now SL/WPF there will be no improvements. Instead Microsoft will "encourage" customers to move to WinRT/Metro by making W8 abysmal for keyboard + mouse desktop users. If Microsoft would make the desktop less of a second class citizen in W8 by making the metro "enhancements" optional and/or improving keyboard + mouse support I would understand but they're not.

, wkempf wrote

I hope you realize how stupid you sounded.

You mean like you're little rant now?

, Blue Ink wrote

@DeathByVisualStudio: I'm not sure I see your point.

Even if we got a new version of WPF instead of WinRT, I'm afraid that you would still have to develop and maintain two separate clients: with very few exceptions, "Metrofied" desktop apps are gigantic piles of failure. The converse would be even worse.

This sucks, of course, but it's nothing new: it happened every time the Windows UI underwent a major facelift. Sure, this time they also grafted a few extra limbs and changed the blood type, but this is kind of immaterial at this point.

My point is they didn't have to make this big chasm between the desktop and the "new Windows". They could have stuck with WPF/SL and extended it to do what WinRT/Metro does today. No convertion, no fuss. It's not like they needed a new runtime to build slick looking full screen metro apps. XAML provided that already (and has the rich binding that WinRT XAML is lacking) But no, because of politics between WinDiv and DevDiv we end up with this nice divided mess.

BTW, I can't find it now but I have seen some renders of a metrofied desktop that actually looked great (unlike the mess that is the next VS). I'm not suggesting a metrofied desktop would give Microsoft the full screen tablet UI they needed but I disagree that metro on the desktop is a mistake. What is a mistake is putting up "Walls not Windows" in the form of these full screen metro apps on desktop PCs. Tied to a clunky keyboard + mouse, not visual discovery interface and you've got nothing but frustrated users.

You are right of course that it is kind of immaterial at this point. I'm just hoping that if enough people make noise about the desktop, keyboard + mouse, etc on W8 that Microsoft will soften the blow.

In the end MSNerd (and the "haters") is right; WPF/SL is dead. Aside from bug fixes you will see no more improvements in those technologies out of Microsoft. Anything wrong with WPF/SL today will stay wrong.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/aaa441eb15634a36b961a01d00f6877b#aaa441eb15634a36b961a01d00f6877b Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:57:35 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/aaa441eb15634a36b961a01d00f6877b#aaa441eb15634a36b961a01d00f6877b DeathByVisualStudio 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/DeathByVisualStudio/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd

, DeathByVisualStudio wrote

You mean like you're little rant now?

Only to you.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/ca1114753c9945d5a695a01d00f8379a#ca1114753c9945d5a695a01d00f8379a Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:03:43 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/ca1114753c9945d5a695a01d00f8379a#ca1114753c9945d5a695a01d00f8379a William Kempf 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/wkempf/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd

, wkempf wrote

*snip*

Only to you.

You mean like the presumption that you are speaking on behalf of the entire world? Oh in that case I bow before your greatness. Perplexed

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/f70cb3b3235a403c9e06a01d0107c3cd#f70cb3b3235a403c9e06a01d0107c3cd Fri, 23 Mar 2012 16:00:20 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/f70cb3b3235a403c9e06a01d0107c3cd#f70cb3b3235a403c9e06a01d0107c3cd DeathByVisualStudio 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/DeathByVisualStudio/Discussions/RSS Coffeehouse - MSNerd Don't understand why people are still taking this guy seriously, in the past he's usually been wrong, and on the occasions he has been right about something it's usually something you could have guessed from public info. He must have some pretty bad sources.

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/d550be7ab6b4405ea368a01d0132e0af#d550be7ab6b4405ea368a01d0132e0af Fri, 23 Mar 2012 18:37:18 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/MSNerd/d550be7ab6b4405ea368a01d0132e0af#d550be7ab6b4405ea368a01d0132e0af contextfree` 20 http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/contextfree`/Discussions/RSS