Made in the USA

6 hours ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@giovanni: that's what the markets are doing, very slowly they bring wealth (and power) to the workingclass. It's not an all or nothing solution at all.

What are you smoking? The wealth is flowing up, and it's been that way for the past 30 years. The working class had hell of a lot more wealth 30, 40, 50 years ago than they do today.

Do you notice how wealth has been "trickling UP" since 1981? Guess who entered the White House in 1981.

@cbae:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller

History repeats itself.

The standard oil of today is Sand Hill Road.

One day people will wake up and learn not to trust what they read online or the smoke and magic of internet pyramid clans. Until that day comes, I think we have a few more years in store.

@cbae: that's an entirely different subject.

18 hours ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@cbae: that's an entirely different subject.

Do you honestly think that the share of the wealth that the top 1% gained during that period came from the 1 percentile just below them?

Two words: industrial automation.

@cbae: no, I think you are comparing apples and oranges, so in my opinion it's an entirely different subject.

How the wealth is distributed is an entirely different problem then how markets work to raise civilisations from poverty. It often has to do with protectionism through government,.

5 hours ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@cbae: no, I think you are comparing apples and oranges, so in my opinion it's an entiry different subject.

You made the claim that the markets are (slowly) bringing wealth to the working class. I posted a graph that shows that the top 1% is taking a larger piece of the wealth pie now than they did 30 years ago--8% to 18% (i.e. they more than DOUBLED their share of all wealth in the US). That means the bottom 99% lost 10% share in absolute terms and 11% in relative terms.

Are you not satisfied seeing the chart of only the top 1%? Do you somehow think that everybody's share of wealth grew by 100%? LOL

Here you go:

If you want to read the article the this graph came from, here you go:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

How the wealth is distributed is an entirely different problem then how markets work to raise civilisations from poverty. It often has to do with protectionism through government,.

We've been beyond the point of "raising our civilization from poverty" for over a century. Are you trying to claim that more people are "wealthier" today because more people have toilets and running water than they did a 100 years ago? Are you serious?

The problem is that despite our "civilization", as a whole, being out of poverty, a significant portion of our population is STILL living in poverty, and portion is GROWING--not shrinking.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/14/us/14census.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

@cbae: I'm not claiming it's without fault, I'm claiming it's the only system that works.

you are comparing your own standard of living to others and claim they are still poor. Yes ofcourse, but their life has significantly improved. One of the baiscs is sanitation and of electricity.

What would your solution be? Socialism? We've tried that on numerous occasions, didn't work.

Again, the distribution of wealth is besides the point. If you want to debate that, then you have to look at how free the internal market is. Less free means less distribution of wealth. Powerfull companies and figures together with government gets to decide where the money goes nowadays. So if you want that situation to improve, you have to deregulate. If you cry out for more regulation, you will end up with less equality (current situation). You should strive for equal oppertunity for all, not equal means.

I personally blame the growing wage gap on the devaluing of human labor because of increased automation and globalization.

The effects of automation are largely non-market based and permanent. I figure that once industrial automation and other types of automation takes the unemployment rate to the point of no return, we should ponder establishing a social wage.

4 hours ago, Maddus Mattus wrote

@cbae: I'm not claiming it's without fault, I'm claiming it's the only system that works.

you are comparing your own standard of living to others and claim they are still poor. Yes ofcourse, but their life has significantly improved. One of the baiscs is sanitation and of electricity.

What would your solution be? Socialism? We've tried that on numerous occasions, didn't work.

Again, the distribution of wealth is besides the point. If you want to debate that, then you have to look at how free the internal market is. Less free means less distribution of wealth. Powerfull companies and figures together with government gets to decide where the money goes nowadays. So if you want that situation to improve, you have to deregulate. If you cry out for more regulation, you will end up with less equality (current situation). You should strive for equal oppertunity for all, not equal means.

Powerful companies that have the government and all tax payers by the short hairs are the direct result of deregulation.

You really don't live in reality. How do you even function with such a warped view?

1 hour ago, Bass wrote

I personally blame the growing wage gap on the devaluing of human labor because of increased automation and globalization.

The effects of automation are largely non-market based and permanent. I figure that once industrial automation and other types of automation takes the unemployment rate to the point of no return, we should ponder establishing a social wage.

Yes, we are accelerating toward this scenario. The free market has already produced the equivalent of a "social wage" for CEOs. No matter how poor their performance, they get some guaranteed basic compensation during their tenure and after they get fired.

@Bass: Minimum wage is a sure way of keeping poor people out of the marketplace. That is pure protectionism of the middle class, sold to you as 'helping the poor'. But you are actually making them so expensive to hire, that nobody will.

There will always be jobs for people who want to work. Be glad we have automation and globalization, that means the most filthy work (assembling iPads) is done by countries that have an even lower standard of living. In the process they will increase their standard of living and it's then time for another country to pick up the ball.

This is the only way you can increase productivity of a nation and raise it's standard of living. I challenge you to find another in the history books.

Now that the BIRC countries have adopted the system, they are growing, while we in the west are regulating ourselves into oblivion.

@cbae: Regulation is what kills competition. So if you are a big company, you lobby for extensive regulation and make the politicians sell it as; "it's for the good of the people".

What do you think patents are? Medical licenses? Minimum wage? All protectionism,..

I see the emperor without clothes, you just see what either your college professor told you to see or the media wants you to see.

Let me ask you this then; What would you do to close the gap?

1. Take more money by force and give it to the needy?

or

2. De-regulate the state, i.e. no minimum wage, no welfare, etc. etc. and free the needy to pursue their own goals? 

@Maddus Mattus: So not only do you expect poor people to do work that no sane person would actually want to do and under horrible conditions, you also want them to do it an income level that leaves them below the poverty line. Nice!

@Sven Groot: That all depends on what you think is horrible and your choosen poverty line.

I would much rather do hard work under difficult circumstances then getting told by some government burocrat what I can and cannot do. It's a system that keeps you trapped and you can't even take a dump without their permission and a signed form that you've wiped the seat and your arse! You're basically handing over your life to them.

And what happens to this work that nobody wants to do? Guess what, immigrants flock to that work. And what do we do? Border patrols, another protectionism. We are so busy protecting everything, that the work is fleeing the country. Do you really think it's a coincidence that we are in this crisis while more open unrestricted countries prosper?

And what exactly is this filthy work that nobody wants to do? And why arent they doing it?

@Sven Groot: I agree with Maddus Mattus on the aspect of work going to China helping raise their basic standards of living (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China#Poverty_reduction).

Working for Foxconn is a step up from living in a rural area with no mains electricity and no indoor plumbing; it is easy to forget how poor China's poorest are.  The income gap is a different story from the basic standard of living and a completely separate argument (on which I disagree with Maddus Mattus  )

Herbie

@Dr Herbie: Thank you, we tend to agree more and more, this is a good thing!

I would be interested to know why you disagree with my second point.

If the system works to raise people from poverty, why would it fail in rewarding virtue evenly? Why do we need the government to step in and regulate the means?

It's my belief that this intention to do good, leads to a lot of ill.

The evidence of that is so vast, when you regulate for equality for all, influencial companies and individuals step in and take the oppertunity to put protection mechanisms in place. In the end you get less equality for all, as cbae has clearly shown. Why continue down a path of more regulations, creating even more enequality?

@Maddus Mattus:We've had this discussion about the income gap recently over the TED video suggesting that the super-rich aren't creating jobs as much as the middle classes are.  There's no point in going over it all again.

Herbie

@Dr Herbie: I was talking about the minimum wage thing. Look at the minimum wage in the Netherlands; just being able to rent an apartment, pay for utilities and eat a hot meal every day is quite a challenge at that wage level. And Maddus wants to abolish that? So McDonalds can refuse to hire people for decent wages because there'll always be some slob who'll be willing to do it for less.