Of course I will pass a final judgment only after I have experienced the device myself (I have an iPad 3rd gen so I will be able to compare), but currently I´m a little bit worried about Windows RT/8 tablets in general, because Surface is such an important device in this category.

Oh deary dear. Surface is too expensive. So disappointing.

No kidding. It doesn't even support POP3 the last time I tried to use it! POP-frigging-3! How can you release a mail-client without the most common mail-client protocol? Have they fixed that yet? And here's a review for the Win 8 Skype app (reads a bit funky because it's an online-translation):

http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itprogeneral/thread/66b1f93e-ea08-48f7-ad40-15a268f980d0
---

"Unnerved we wanted to switch to another user with an existing Skype account, but unfortunately Microsoft has housed the "Unsubscribe" in the settings menu of the Charms bar where one looks up the first thing is not spontaneous. We have finally found the function already. But why can not intuitive? Who makes these design decisions?

CHIP Online says:
Is this really the final version? After all, Skype for Windows 8 appears to coincide with the new operating system, so already on 26 October 2012. Since not much time left. What Microsoft delivers here made ​​in the editorial for shaking their heads in disbelief. How you manage to get the same despite minimal designs such an unintuitive operation is a mystery. Hide important functions in favor of the simple layouts so that they must first seek laboriously, is not comprehensible. The idea that one's parents were sitting in front of this piece of software is funny and sad at the same time. If the new Skype is an indicator of the future of software on Windows 8, then Microsoft has a problem. A great [one]."

---

With castrated apps like these, it's no wonder if there's disappoitment. Couple this with the fact that apps need to be installed per user, and updated per user:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh464929.aspx

.. Which will be a real fun endeavor if you have more than two people using a computer, together with more limitations like an unpredictable background behavior:

http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itprogeneral/thread/67483335-db7d-4060-8502-4494e234b188

You've got to be ready for sinking reviews.

Still you find sentences like "The 720p HD cameras — front and rear — are junk. There's no other way to put it.". Of course the cameras are not very important in a device like this, but would it have been so hard to include "decent" cameras, not "junk" cameras?

47 minutes ago, mawcc wrote

This one's positive, although not really enthusiastic (8 out of 10): http://www.wired.com/reviews/2012/10/microsoft-surface/

Still you find sentences like "The 720p HD cameras — front and rear — are junk. There's no other way to put it.". Of course the cameras are not very important in a device like this, but would it have been so hard to include "decent" cameras, not "junk" cameras?

8 out of 10 isn't "enthusiastic"? Really?

3 hours ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

8 out of 10 isn't "enthusiastic"? Really?

Here's a literally enthusiastic review:

http://www.zdnet.com/hands-on-with-microsofts-surface-rt-can-it-hit-the-sweet-spot-7000006258/

A Surface RT may be a terrific replacement for that art book on one's coffee table...

Still waiting for my laptop replacement version...

5 hours ago, mawcc wrote

The first reviews of Surface RT are in, and they are not good (see http://www.businessinsider.com/bad-surface-reviews-2012-10 for an overview). I ordered one, despite the initial disappointment about the specs (especially the screen resolution).

Of course I will pass a final judgment only after I have experienced the device myself (I have an iPad 3rd gen so I will be able to compare), but currently I´m a little bit worried about Windows RT/8 tablets in general, because Surface is such an important device in this category.

Sorry, I call BS.

"The most scathing of the reviews we've read so far comes from Josh Topolsky at  The Verge

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/bad-surface-reviews-2012-10#ixzz2ADoJMXsU"

So, the "most scathing of the reviews" comes from someone known to be anti-microsoft, but that "scathing review" gives a numerical 7/10 rating. That's a respectable score, and hardly scathing. So, ignore the score and read the article. Unless you're cherry picking, which Business Insider did, I see no way to read the review as scathing based on what he said. Again, this from a reviewer we should all expect to have been biased. Sorry, that's NOT a bad review.

Over all, the reviews are actually pretty good. Not "Apple good", but if you expected to get those kind of reviews I'm not sure where you've been the last 8 years or so. Anyone claiming the reviews are bad is only showing their extreme (and I do mean extreme) bias. Again, the most scathing review is a 7/10, and thus the reviews are bad?!?!!!

Glad to see with things like the Skype app that the "No Chrome Even if it Hurts" campaign Microsoft is on is getting some notice. "Windows 8: More Clicks in Every Box..." Hopefully Microsoft will issue a course correction on this in an update to their UI/UX guidelines (and then say it never intended the interface to be so unintuitive in the first place  )

Anand said it's the best mobile OS yet, and the hardware is great aside from average cameras, a poorly designed charging port, and horrible HDMI output.

He also alluded that Office 2013 Preview tends to max out the CPU, but he didn't notice any other perf problems.

A Windows RT OS review is forthcoming, so no comments on the software.

I admit I was disappointed to see much better performance numbers from the Atom-based tablets running Windows 8. It makes me wonder why MS priced the Surface at $500 when Atom-based tablets are around the same price with the full x86 compatibility.

The dumbest review I have read was the Gizmodo one where they gave it a 2.  Gizmodo hasn't really had any credibility in a long time anyway.

PC World gives it 3.5/5. Biggest complaint is the quality of the bundled apps.

The more I read, the more I want to wait for Surface Pro.

According to MJF, MS sent out review devices to a lot of pro-Apple tech bloggers. I guess MS was under the impression that they were going to impress these people.  However I could have told you beforehand that you will never get a good MS product review out of those people, no matter how good or bad the product it.

Most of the reviewers reviewed the product as a full blown laptop, then comes to the conclusion that it fails to be a full-blown laptop. In reality it is supposed to be a tablet that has some laptop features. For instance, how can you ding the keyboard when other tablets don't even have a keyboard at all? Or ding the tablet for the fact that the kickstand has only one angle? That's one angle more than any other tablet, yet it subtracts from the overall score?

Well, maybe MS will know better next time...

We'll see more balanced review sources next week as people get their pre-ordered devices.

8 hours ago, wastingtime​withforums wrote

"I actively avoided using the mail app if at all possible."

No kidding. It doesn't even support POP3 the last time I tried to use it! POP-frigging-3! How can you release a mail-client without the most common mail-client protocol?

Ah yes, complaining about something that was fixed last week, but you didn't check for. Well done

1 hour ago, wkempf wrote

@spivonious: I'm not convinced even the Surface Pro is the device I want at this point. I may go with one of the other devices, but none of them are what they could be. I'll be getting a Windows 8 device, no doubt, just not convinced yet which one will fit my needs best. At this point, price might be the biggest factor in my decision, just because I'll be compromising with any device.

I also have concerns that the Surface Pro can replace my development laptop.

But my concerns are capability and not price...

9 minutes ago, JohnAskew wrote

*snip*

I also have concerns that the Surface Pro can replace my development laptop.

But my concerns are capability and not price...

I think a Surface Pro with the Type Cover would be a fantastic mobile workstation. If they can keep battery life high and get a fanless design with a price <$1000, Microsoft has a winner.

After reading another review on Anandtech, I think the Asus VivoTab RT might be the winner, with its 14 hour battery life (when docked).

1. Tablet usage for casual consumption.
2. Keyboard for light mobile usage.
3. Some way to use full size monitors/keyboards for extended serious usage.
4. Enough processing power to be able to develop on the device.
5. All of the sensors, so I can actually test software I write for the platform.

Surface Pro comes close, but it's lacking in sensors (specifically GPS). I'm also not sure about the "docking" capabilities here. I know it's not going to have real docking support, but it's got the right ports to allow "poor mans" docking. Only thing is, I'm not sure after reading reviews that it really could manage this. The other devices I've looked at are all fairly similar. Even if I shell out the money for an i7 based device (which might do very poorly as a tablet due to battery life) none of them come with a full array of sensors, and only one makes any claims about docking (and that one's running the Atom SOC).

24 minutes ago, spivonious wrote

After reading another review on Anandtech, I think the Asus VivoTab RT might be the winner, with its 14 hour battery life (when docked).

One of the devices I'm seriously considering is the Vivo Tab (not the RT version). Other than, like all other devices, this one lacks in sensors, my only concern is how the new Atom SOCs will perform. At least the Samsung Ativ SmartPC comes in i3 and i5 versions, though the price tag goes way up for those.

41 minutes ago, spivonious wrote

*snip*

I think a Surface Pro with the Type Cover would be a fantastic mobile workstation. If they can keep battery life high and get a fanless design with a price <$1000, Microsoft has a winner.

 

After reading another review on Anandtech, I think the Asus VivoTab RT might be the winner, with its 14 hour battery life (when docked).

http://www.asus.com/News/9PSOUa9v30mhiw5o/

The ASUS Vivo Tab features the Next Generation Intel® Atom™ processor and has 2GB RAM with 64GB eMMC (embedded multimedia card) user storage. An incredible Windows 8 experience makes it a smart choice for professional and personal use.

No, no, no. 2GB RAM is just silly.

What I want is a Surface Pro(grammer) 64-bit with 16GB RAM on an i7.  Not gonna happen, is it? 

FISH!

1 hour ago, blowdart wrote

*snip*

Ah yes, complaining about something that was fixed last week, but you didn't check for. Well done

Err, damn. Ok. It gives you pop3 as an option, then tells you it's not support. I was wrong *facepalm*

2 hours ago, wkempf wrote

@JohnAskew: My problem is actually with the sensors, mostly. What I want in a device.

1. Tablet usage for casual consumption.
2. Keyboard for light mobile usage.
3. Some way to use full size monitors/keyboards for extended serious usage.
4. Enough processing power to be able to develop on the device.
5. All of the sensors, so I can actually test software I write for the platform.

Surface Pro comes close, but it's lacking in sensors (specifically GPS). I'm also not sure about the "docking" capabilities here. I know it's not going to have real docking support, but it's got the right ports to allow "poor mans" docking. Only thing is, I'm not sure after reading reviews that it really could manage this. The other devices I've looked at are all fairly similar. Even if I shell out the money for an i7 based device (which might do very poorly as a tablet due to battery life) none of them come with a full array of sensors, and only one makes any claims about docking (and that one's running the Atom SOC).

We're in the same boat. We're looking to do a hardware refresh for our developers next year and it would be a great plus to add a tablet to the mix. The first thought would be to go all-in and get a Pro tablet, dock etc. to replace our workstations but they fall short in a few areas:

1. Multi-monitor support (you can do it via USB but that seems too taxing and slow)
2. Memory - I believe the highest config I've seen is 8GB. We'd like to go 16GB.

Going with an RT tablet, dumb workstation, and virtual machines setup as developer desktops on one beefy server is another way we're looking at going as it gives you everything:

1. Highly available developer VM (on dumb workstation or RT tablet)
2. Multi-monitor support on the dumb workstation.
3. Scalable memory support in the developer VM

The concerns here are:

1. Access to developer VMs from the field (when no Internet, no VM)
2. Downtime from server hosting the VMs.
3. Performance of things like Intellisense in VS when the VM server is bogged down even momentarily -- no one likes to be interrupted.
4. Device connectivity -- I've never had great experiences with devices support on VMs. We do a lot of Android development and debugging over native USB is bad enough -- I can't imagine how well that would work running on the RT tablet over a VPN connection.

I hope there will be a new round of Pro devices early next year that address our initial issues with this first batch as that would be the best solution overall.

Unrelated: Anyone know why Microsoft went without GPS on the Surface tablets? Do they think that will get people to buy a WP8 device in addition to the tablet? As a consumer I can see a common use case where I'm in a coffee shop with my Surface tablet and want to locate Chinese food nearby, or plan my bus trip home, or see where my friends are in relationship to my location. Why wouldn't Microsoft think these use cases were valid? WiFi and cell tower triangulation never have been that accurate for me and to have to rely on that or whip out my phone with its less generous screen seems silly.

8 hours ago, JohnAskew wrote

*snip*

http://www.asus.com/News/9PSOUa9v30mhiw5o/

The ASUS Vivo Tab features the Next Generation Intel® Atom™ processor and has 2GB RAM with 64GB eMMC (embedded multimedia card) user storage. An incredible Windows 8 experience makes it a smart choice for professional and personal use.

No, no, no. 2GB RAM is just silly.

What I want is a Surface Pro(grammer) 64-bit with 16GB RAM on an i7.  Not gonna happen, is it? 

FISH!

That would be sweet; unfortunately it would probably come with a backpack full of batteries. It was kind of surprising to see how the Surface falls short of the iPad on battery life, despite the fact that Microsoft went to great lengths (and painful cuts) to conserve power. Looks like they didn't nail that particular aspect just yet.

Still, RAM is so cheap nowadays, and sips power, so I don't know why the OEMs aren't stuffing their tablets with 8GB+.

10 minutes ago, spivonious wrote

@JohnAskew: 2GB of RAM is plenty for a mobile device, especially with the improved resource management in Windows 8.

Still, RAM is so cheap nowadays, and sips power, so I don't know why the OEMs aren't stuffing their tablets with 8GB+.

Laptops are also mobile devices, no? 

My laptop, with 4GB RAM, is over 5 years old... I'm running W7 32 bit.

Next laptop will be 64 bit with max RAM. Developers owe that to themselves, imho.

I have to disagree with 2GB RAM being capable of running VS2012 and other bits for development; it will be too slow. Running dumb terminals makes me sick to my stomach, even an RT.

Looks like I'm going OEM.

@DeathByVisualStudio: Personally, I don't need the device to be a high end dev machine. I've got one of those. It just needs to do OK running Visual Studio for mobile situations and convenience reasons. For the same reason, I'm OK with single monitor support when "docking" (after all, the device itself would probably still work as a secondary display). I'm not expecting a mainframe in my palm at this point in time. I just want a device for testing purposes, casual development usage, and media consumption. I'll continue to use a desktop for more serious work.

For your scenario, have you checked out the Dell Latitude 10? It's designed for professional use and includes actual docking support. From your description of what your looking for, it sounds like a fit to me (though I have no idea what amount of RAM it supports).

I agree completely with you on the GPS. I also think lacking NFC is a mistake as well, though that's from a developer perspective rather than a consumer perspective. Cellular I can see leaving out, even though there's going to be customers lost from such a decision, but the GPS and NFC are things I don't want to do without in a new device.

Herbie

3 hours ago, spivonious wrote

Still, RAM is so cheap nowadays, and sips power, so I don't know why the OEMs aren't stuffing their tablets with 8GB+.

Because (most) ARM processors (and all Windows-RT tablets) are 32-bit and don't have PAE, and hence giving them more than 4GB of RAM is a waste of time and money.

1 day ago, spivonious wrote

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6385/microsoft-surface-review

... A Windows RT OS review is forthcoming, so no comments on the software.

Here is their Win-RT review

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6392/the-windows-rt-review

The Zune for all intents and purposes on any objective metric was a better device than the iPod of the time, and generally speaking it was less expensive too. And it failed, hard.

Microsoft has no hope of breaking into the mobile market. The leader of mobile is a title that will belong for Google eventually, and they will hold it at least for a few decades. Barring government intervention (anti-trust) of course.

"I'll take a stack of #surface"...wow THANK YOU!!! sdrv.ms/R46eYA

— Steven Sinofsky (@stevesi) October 26, 2012

from anandtech review:

Explorer works just as it would on a Windows 8 PC. The folder structure is exactly as you would expect it on any Windows machine. There are even some x86 remnants in the Windows RT install such as a C:\Windows\SysWOW64 directory complete with x86 binaries inside that obviously won't run on your Windows RT tablet. 

See .. this is one of the reasons people like Apple products -- polish -- things look like they're finished. Microsoft has good products, but they consistently half-a$$ them. How does it make sense to leave more than a GB of useless binaries on a mobile device with limited memory?