Microsoft always lets this kind of stuff happen

1 hour ago, evildictaitor wrote

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Well that exact same argument could be used to say Linux should never have been ported to ARM, because it started on the i386. Since that is an obviously stupid thing to suggest, and since Microsoft have proved that you can run Windows on low powered ARM tablets, I'm a bit surprised that you think it's such a bad idea.

At the start of this thread and at the end of the day we're talking about phones. In order for Microsoft to get decent performance out of W8 on a phone it will have to be both a beast of a phone and such a stripped down W8 it might as well be WinCE. Last I checked phones were running ARM CPUs...

BTW, when did I say anything about Linux? I just think it was a big waist of time and a lost window on the tablet market the way that Microsoft just tossed away WP7 for the nerdy goal of "Window Everywhere -- Even It Sucks".

7 hours ago, evildictaitor wrote

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It seems to me that the only people who even use such terms are usually trying to justify why they like one thing rather than another without using real arguments, for instance "your OS isn't as good as my OS because mine is a microkernel but yours is monolithic".

Indeed. Which is why I never mentioned it at all, because it's a bit pointless when discussing two kernels that are "monolithic"  anyway. It doesn't change the fact that many of the decisions that are deeply baked into the Linux kernel, such as the poor support for real ACLs (the Posix standard is sadly lacking here) and the "everything looks like a block file" are horribly dated decisions that should never have been in an OS as modern as Linux. They exist purely because Linus was attempting to clone Unix without really considering what should and could be better.

1 hour ago, fanbaby wrote

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I'll give one example. COM. Yes, the same COM that got a bad rap. If you look at the original, CORBA, you must hand it to Microsoft. They took this monstrosity, and made it accessible for mere mortals. KUDOS. Now if they only just shared...

What more did you want them to share? Anybody on any platform can implement IUnknown. It's just AddRef, Release and QueryInterface. And with that you have COM.

1 hour ago, fanbaby wrote

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Let's assume this is true. Then you must feel that Linux unjustly took over the world. At least both sides of the scalability range: embedded space - routers, tivo, ... - and the supercomputer space.

I don't think anything of the sort. If you give something away for nothing and people can use it to make themselves money, they will and good for them I say. Sucks to be you if you don't end getting anything out of it, but then that's your problem.

39 minutes ago, DeathByVisualStudio wrote

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At the start of this thread and at the end of the day we're talking about phones. In order for Microsoft to get decent performance out of W8 on a phone it will have to be both a beast of a phone and such a stripped down W8 it might as well be WinCE. Last I checked phones were running ARM CPUs...

You're confusing "Windows" with "the NT kernel". Windows Phone 8 may used the kernel, it still won't be the full Windows as seen on tablets.

That said, however, Microsoft have already demonstrated on numerous occasions the full version of Windows 8 running on ARM hardware without any of the problems you seem to suggest would have to exist.

7 hours ago, DeathByVisualStudio wrote

At the start of this thread and at the end of the day we're talking about phones. In order for Google to get decent performance out of Linux on a phone it will have to be both a beast of a phone and such a stripped down Linux it might as well be TinyLinux. Last I checked phones were running ARM CPUs...

See that when I change the names from Microsoft to Linux that the argument is clearly invalid. Linux can run on big servers and tiny phones. So either you're contesting that Linux is terrible on phones (and hence all Android phones must be terrible), or you're suggesting that Linux has some magical pixie dust that Microsoft doesn't have that somehow means that all of your arguments don't apply equally to Linux.

Windows on ARM might come from the same codebase, but it's not the same code. That's the power of #ifdefs.

My personal take on it is I don't think it is impossible to get WinNT to work well on phones, just that is "expensive" (in terms of developer man hours). I don't see how it will make the WP experience any better for developers or users, and it just costs development time (limited resource) that could probably be better utilised in other places. It is a matter of development priorities.

@AndyC: @evildictaitor:

Ok smart boys, what's the point of delaying getting in the tablet space by two years just so you can have the same kernel from PC to tablet to phone? The user doesn't care about the kernel. Only geeks do.

Microsoft have already demonstrated on numerous occasions the full version of Windows 8 running on ARM hardware without any of the problems you seem to suggest would have to exist.

Really? Even TI with their latest and greatest processor weren't ready to go on camera with a demo: http://ces.cnet.com/8301-33363_1-57358767/ti-offers-rare-demo-of-windows-8-explorer-on-newest-arm-chip/ 

And there's more...

http://www.infoworld.com/t/microsoft-windows/windows-8-arm-not-so-vaporous-after-all-185259

Is Microsoft waiting for some special event where they show the rest of the world W8 is ready for ARM? What's the big secret?

As with underpowered netbooks I'm sure W8 phones will be full of compromise (none of which will be coming from Microsoft). You'll need the latest and greatest of everything in order to get modest performance on a phone. And let's not forget about battery life; being ARM doesn't mean the OS gets a free ride to long battery life. They had all that with WP7 and kissed it and two years away just for some nerdy goal.

I predict Microsoft will go from bragging about how WP7 doesn't need a multi-core mega phone to boasting (and requiring) WP8 having multi-core mega phone creds.

And as for Linux the big difference here is two fold:

1. Linux has been running on routers, set top boxes, and phones for many, many years. This is the Windows kernel's first time. Good luck with that. Maybe they should call it "Window Phone 8 - The Virgin Edition" WP8-VE for short of course.
2. More importantly Linux doesn't care how it's being used -- it's not part of a greater strategy. For Microsoft "Windows Everywhere -- Even If It Sucks" seems to be a huge roll of the strategic dice when it really didn't have to be. (Again geeks rule the day here.)

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match on Linux vs. Windows. I'm just saying Microsoft made a big mistake not sticking with WP7, Silverlight, et al for tablets and getting to market two years earlier.

Now taking this W8 strategy down to the phone makes no sense as it doesn't buy them anything with user and it's my prediction it's going to make for a woeful phone experience to top it all off. I'm hopeful Nokia is successful in retraining retail on selling WP and getting their sales numbers up. Now along comes Microsoft with the new WP8 and tops those efforts with...wait for it... a phone that runs the same kernel as a PC. Exciting days ahead I'm sure.

4 minutes ago, DeathByVisualStudio wrote

Linux has been running on routers, set top boxes, and phones for many, many years. This is the Windows kernel's first time.

Windows Embedded?

More importantly Linux doesn't care how it's being used

Why do you think the Windows kernel gives a damn about how it's used?

... a phone that runs the same kernel as a PC...

Like how an Android phone runs the same kernel as an Ubuntu desktop, right?

24 minutes ago, DeathByVisualStudio wrote

@AndyC: @evildictaitor:

Ok smart boys, what's the point of delaying getting in the tablet space by two years just so you can have the same kernel from PC to tablet to phone? The user doesn't care about the kernel. Only geeks do.

I love the Windows Phone UI. It's great, on a phone. It really wouldn't work at all on a larger tablet device. And I say that as a massive fan of tablet computing for years (even before the iPad made it cool for everyone else).

7 minutes ago, evildictaitor wrote

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Windows Embedded?

SPAM in a can, eh? So what's taking them some long to get W8/WP8 on ARM then? Maybe because there no Windows Embedded for ARM? Oh, looks like I'm wrong. There is Windows Embedded for ARM but it's our good ol' friend WinCE : http://www.arm.com/community/software-enablement/microsoft/windows-embedded-ce.php and http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedded/en-us/develop/windows-embedded-compact-for-developers.aspx

*snip*

Why do you think the Windows kernel gives a damn about how it's used?

No but apparently Microsoft does give a damn about using the Windows kernel everywhere and pissing away a ton of development dollars and good two years of time-to-market for tablets.

*snip*

Like how an Android phone runs the same kernel as an Ubuntu desktop, right?

Thanks for making my point. Most people don't buy an Android phone because it's running a Linux kernel. Microsoft seems to think this is important with there strategy. I'm suggesting it's not.

5 minutes ago, AndyC wrote

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I love the Windows Phone UI. It's great, on a phone. It really wouldn't work at all on a larger tablet device. And I say that as a massive fan of tablet computing for years (even before the iPad made it cool for everyone else).

So are you saying that a Metro UI on a tablet is a fail?

My daughter still has her HP tablet/convertible PC I bought her 3 years ago when I was still a big fan of Microsoft and hoping they'd get the tablet PC right eventually. The tablet is laying in a heap in my garage -- died a month out of warrantee. I was trying to fix it but Android tablets are cheap enough that it's not worth my time.

@evildictaitor:

But regardless the main point, it's just wasting time reinventing the wheel, actually reinventing the wheel internally since WinCE has been able to do ARM for quite awhile and has a history of being developed for phones and PDAs. There is the frustration from Microsoft ecosystem developers that years after the iPad and Android tablets, there is no answer from Microsoft. Timing might not be everything in this industry but it certainly helps to be timely. So you got to put products in the face of customers quickly.

If Microsoft gives their competitors too much time to build ecosystems around their products and establish a network effect, they will become irrelevant in any new technological market. This is regardless how "nerd approved" (thanks DeathByVisualStudio) their technology stack is.

35 minutes ago, Bass wrote

@evildictaitor:

But regardless the main point, it's just wasting time reinventing the wheel, actually reinventing the wheel internally since WinCE has been able to do ARM for quite awhile and has a history of being developed for phones and PDAs. There is the frustration from Microsoft ecosystem developers that years after the iPad and Android tablets, there is no answer from Microsoft. Timing might not be everything in this industry but it certainly helps to be timely. So you got to put products in the face of customers quickly.

Arguably the mistake was inventing WinCE rather than just porting the NT kernel to the phone way back when.

38 minutes ago, DeathByVisualStudio wrote

*snip*

So are you saying that a Metro UI on a tablet is a fail?

My daughter still has her HP tablet/convertible PC I bought her 3 years ago when I was still a big fan of Microsoft and hoping they'd get the tablet PC right eventually. The tablet is laying in a heap in my garage -- died a month out of warrantee. I was trying to fix it but Android tablets are cheap enough that it's not worth my time.

I'll take it. Can I email you my addy?

@cbae: Sorry a buddy of mine already had dibs. But email me your address anyway so I can send you this cluster-f that is W8.

1 hour ago, evildictaitor wrote

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Arguably the mistake was inventing WinCE rather than just porting the NT kernel to the phone way back when.

LOL. That's damn funny.

So are you saying that a Metro UI on a tablet is a fail?

I think you are trolling here, but to state the obvious, Windows Phone "Metro" != Windows 8 "Metro"

@contextfree`: Cosmetically, functionally, programmatically not equal? I'm speaking of the metro design language. My question has merit. I'm surprised that Andy seems to be inferring Metro on a tablet isn't great hence my question. But of course anyone who says bad things about Microsoft must be a baseless troll. Thanks for pointing that out.

1 hour ago, evildictaitor wrote

Arguably the mistake was inventing WinCE rather than just porting the NT kernel to the phone way back when.

that's bad hindsight. Aside of any performance consideration, early mobile devices had very limited storage and what they had was usually read-only. For comparison, NT 3.51 required 90MB of HDD, and the HP Journada from roughly the same era had 16MB of ROM, which included the OS and all the applications.

Maybe a merger was overdue, but a specialized kernel made a lot of sense back then.