Yet here we are, seeing these companies go on the offensive.

Surely if Microsoft was doing so fantastically well in the market they would not need to stoop to that level. Otherwise I'm terrified of things like this torpedoing whatever my favourite startup-of-the-month is.

5 minutes ago, W3bbo wrote

... swear to only use them defensively.

...

Surely if Microsoft was doing so fantastically well in the market they would not need to stoop to that level.

I know it is sad that MS is in weaker position right now.

17 hours ago, W3bbo wrote

I was under the impression patent holding is similar to a game of MAD between belligerents: organisations amass large numbers of patents and swear to only use them defensively.

It is, this is the result of a bit of sabre rattling to ensure Android licensees are paying for the technology Microsoft developed. If Google had a suitable patent portfolio to protect it, you'd have seen a typical cross-licensing agreement a long time ago. The thing with threatening such action is that you have to see it through, or people will never take you seriously.

1 hour ago, AndyC wrote

*snip*

It is, this is the result of a bit of sabre rattling to ensure Android licensees are paying for the technology Microsoft developed. If Google had a suitable patent portfolio to protect it, you'd have seen a typical cross-licensing agreement a long time ago. The thing with threatening such action is that you have to see it through, or people will never take you seriously.

So in the nuclear analogy, this is akin to a small-scale isolated conflict that serves to remind everyone that they have nukes, and they aren't afraid to use them?

...but MAD depends on both factions being afraid to use them.

58 minutes ago, AndyC wrote

*snip*

It is, this is the result of a bit of sabre rattling to ensure Android licensees are paying for the technology Microsoft developed. If Google had a suitable patent portfolio to protect it, you'd have seen a typical cross-licensing agreement a long time ago. The thing with threatening such action is that you have to see it through, or people will never take you seriously.

So you truly, but truly, think that Microsoft developed a method of calendar synchronization? And that this so-called innovation is so non-trivial that it could only come from this amazing place of innovation that is Redmond? And maybe you also believe that Google or whoever coiped this invention.

My View (and sorry if it offends you): You are a Microsoft fanboy who cannot call this to what it is. Here is my definition of a Microsoft fanboy:

1. You thought IE6/7/8 were great, and Firefox was just a fad
2. When you feel adventurous, you whip up notepad
3. You think C# is the greatest thing in CS, and you wouldn't be caught dead programming in: Java, JavaScript, Python, Ruby, PHP etc.
4. You used to use FrontPage to create IE-only sites, then you moved to using WebForms to create shitty sites with this god-sent INNOVATION called postback (is it also patented?).
5. This past few years you were highly disrupted by those pesky open-source guys and tools.
   EDIT: And you pray for a Microsoft comeback even if it is in the form of a lame patent troll. 

Sorry if i missed a few or wasn't very eloquent, I'M PISSED

49 minutes ago, fanbaby wrote

*snip*

So you truly, but truly, think that Microsoft developed a method of calendar synchronization? And that this so-called innovation is so non-trivial that it could only come from this amazing place of innovation that is Redmond? And maybe you also believe that Google or whoever coiped this invention.

I think they were one of the first to have such a thing (Microsoft were after all a pioneer in this field) and, due to the uniquely stupid way the USPO works, were allowed to patent it. That's the playing field we live in and if you want to join in you have to play the game. Doing a Google and just knocking up a clone of successful products, largely from existing open source code, then whinging that you can't just have everything your own way isn't really a great strategy.

2 hours ago, fanbaby wrote

Here is my definition of a Microsoft fanboy:

1. You thought IE6/7/8 were great, and Firefox was just a fad
2. When you feel adventurous, you whip up notepad
3. You think C# is the greatest thing in CS, and you wouldn't be caught dead programming in: Java, JavaScript, Python, Ruby, PHP etc.
4. You used to use FrontPage to create IE-only sites, then you moved to using WebForms to create shitty sites with this god-sent INNOVATION called postback (is it also patented?).
5. This past few years you were highly disrupted by those pesky open-source guys and tools.
   EDIT: And you pray for a Microsoft comeback even if it is in the form of a lame patent troll. 

Sorry if i missed a few or wasn't very eloquent, I'M PISSED

1. Firefox was just another browser.  I don't collect software like some reality show hoarder, so I used what worked.
2. I have no idea what this means.  You are misusing the term 'whip up'.
3. Again, I don't hoard languages, either.  C#, and more generally, .Net has a vastly superior ecosystem over any of the other technologies you mention.
4. I didn't waste time on web technologies until they matured past the .asp and cold fusion stage.  Until the 21st century, most web developers were worthless hacks who tarnished the reputations of skilled developers.
5. The past few years in the .Net ecosystem have been awesome.  Now that the framework has matured and professional design patterns and practices have proliferated, even the open source code doesn't suck as much as it usually did.

What that all you had?

7 minutes ago, ScanIAm wrote

*snip*

1. Firefox was just another browser.  I don't collect software like some reality show hoarder, so I used what worked.
2. I have no idea what this means.  You are misusing the term 'whip up'.
3. Again, I don't hoard languages, either.  C#, and more generally, .Net has a vastly superior ecosystem over any of the other technologies you mention.
4. I didn't waste time on web technologies until they matured past the .asp and cold fusion stage.  Until the 21st century, most web developers were worthless hacks who tarnished the reputations of skilled developers.
5. The past few years in the .Net ecosystem have been awesome.  Now that the framework has matured and professional design patterns and practices have proliferated, even the open source code doesn't suck as much as it usually did.

What that all you had?

I started using Firefox back in 2004 - compared to the then three year-old IE6 it was a breath of fresh air - tabbed browsing, extensions, developer-friendly features, and adblock. Firefox wasn't "just another browser" - it pioneered the future and brought on the second browser wars.

On the third point, I'd wager that web "development" matured sometime around 2007 - before then "web people" could be split into "web designers" using Dreamweaver with little real programming experience and formal CS instruction and "web developers" using Visual Studio or a Java equivalent, people who wouldn't know good design if it hit them in the face. Things have since tremendously improved: the 'designers' have caught on to first-class client scripting with things like jQuery and Mootools, and the developers have finally learned that <table border="1"> is not good.

6 hours ago, fanbaby wrote

*snip*

Sorry if i missed a few or wasn't very eloquent, I'M PISSED

Why? Do you work for Motorola? How does this decision affect you personally?

5 hours ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

Why? Do you work for Motorola? How does this decision affect you personally?

Sorry if it wasn't obvious. I'm pissed because AndyC has his head stuck so deep in Microsoft as$ that he doesn't see this suit as what it is: LAME PATENT TROLLING. Every decent developer looks at this with horror as to what it means to the craft. It means lawyers became much more important then developers. It also means that Microsoft can halt any development. New OS? New browser? New calendar app? New anything in CS? Call Microsoft first to arrange for a payment, unless of course you are not in direct competition with it.

EDIT: And all AndyC sees in this is just: OMG I learned Microsoft technologies for ages. And now everything is going down the drain. How can the world not see that Silverlight is the greatest thing on earth? How can the world like an operating system based on Java? Don't they see that C# is much greater the old Java. If this lawsuit is the thing that would bring back 2002 i'm all for it.

Oh, let me just mention Microsoft best patent: VFAT (long file names). And I thought that Microsoft has setup a site for interoperability.

58 minutes ago, fanbaby wrote

*snip*

Sorry if it wasn't obvious. I'm pissed because AndyC has his head stuck so deep in Microsoft as$ that he doesn't see this suit as what it is: LAME PATENT TROLLING.

Heh.

Way to make your case.

I'm not sure why you seem so excited about this. It looks like the usual tit-for-tat patent nonsense that every tech company gets involved in at some time or another. MS sues Motorola, Motorola countersues Microsoft. After two years and enough money spent to put the kids of twenty lawyers through Harvard, they settle.

I agree, something is seriously broken, but what's needed is an effort to overhaul it. Not sure how slinging insults around a forum is going to help with that.

Every decent developer looks at this with horror as to what it means to the craft. It means lawyers became much more important then developers. It also means that Microsoft can halt any development. New OS? New browser? New calendar app? New anything in CS? Call Microsoft first to arrange for a payment, unless of course you are not in direct competition with it.

And why are we singling out MS here? Are they the only ones doing it? Apple seems think it owns the patent on rectangles. They know it's ridiculous, but if these companies aren't seen to be protecting their intellectual property then they'll become vulnerable to theft of the stuff that really does matter. 

Having said that though, it seems to be that both MS and Apple are trying to use the system to stifle competition. So rather than attacking one company, let's attack the system because that's where the problem is.

EDIT: And all AndyC sees in this is just: OMG I learned Microsoft technologies for ages. And now everything is going down the drain. How can the world not see that Silverlight is the greatest thing on earth? How can the world like an operating system based on Java? Don't they see that C# is much greater the old Java. If this lawsuit is the thing that would bring back 2002 i'm all for it.

You want an operating system based on Java? Okay.

There are a fair number of Java developers (I'm one of them) who believes that C# is a better language than Java, which is not surprising really. MS had the opportunity to see the mistakes that were made in Java and improve on it. And dissatisfaction with Java is a good thing because it led to the development of JVM languages that are better than Java and C#. That's how progress works.

EDIT: I suppose I'd better qualify what I mean by 'mistake'. Well, tying the package system to the file directory hierarchy was really, really stupid, since they must have known that this would be very fragile under Windows.

2 hours ago, Ray7 wrote

[...] It looks like the usual tit-for-tat patent nonsense that every tech company gets involved in at some time or another. MS sues Motorola, Motorola countersues Microsoft. After two years and enough money spent to put the kids of twenty lawyers through Harvard, they settle.

*snip* LATER IN THAT POST:

Having said that though, it seems to be that both MS and Apple are trying to use the system to stifle competition.

*snip*

??

3 hours ago, fanbaby wrote

*snip*

??

Yep,   all kinds of companies play the patent game.  untill the system is changed it will keep happening.

honestly there are a whole lot of developers out there who hate the software patents we see.

as far as i can tell *most* software patents are silly, you want an example - Amazon.com "One Click Order"  or whatever they call it.

so no one has an exlusive on things that we can all code up but one corp got there first and got a patent on it.

so go lobby congress about patents, leave us out of the hate.

1 hour ago, AndyC wrote

@fanbaby: Hate the game, not the players playahs.

FIFY

1 hour ago, AndyC wrote

@fanbaby: Hate the game, not the players.

Players play the game and make it so.

Hate everyone, including the system.

Firebomb the stadium.

With everyone in it.

15 minutes ago, AndyC wrote

@fanbaby: Hate the game, not the players.

No, I just hate you.

Kidding aside, I think i'm entitled to hate these actions by Microsoft. And it puzzles me why there are developers who don't hate them.

EDIT: I think they don't hate them because it might be the only Microsoft can try to push Windows Phone and Windows 8 so they can recuperate all the time and money invested in VS/C#

15 minutes ago, fanbaby wrote

*snip*

Kidding aside, I think i'm entitled to hate these actions by Microsoft. And it puzzles me why there are developers who don't hate them.

Well, speaking for myself, I don't work for Microsoft or Motorola, I'm not investing money in either of them and nor am I a lawyer. So it's pretty much irrelevant which way it goes. Just another case of two massive multinationals having a little dispute in court. It'll get ruled one way or another and things will continue with one or other company possibly taking a slight hit in their profits. Happens every day, nothing to waste time worrying about.

When it's a big corporate bullying a little developer (Hello Apple) or something liable to directly affect me, then I'll be happy to get bothered about it. Otherwise, life is simply too short. Chill out and have a beer instead.