29 minutes ago, Bas wrote

Basically anything they'll announce is bound to be disappointing at this point

Not if the announcement is about putting the start button- and menu back into Windows 8.

I recall the special monday announcements usually amounting to some special feature in an existing product that people over the interwebs already knew about.

I loved yammer with my previous employer.

Hope the deal crosses over the pond whatever it might be. 

5 hours ago, Bas wrote

Edit: screw this. I figured we'd get some good old speculation going but apparently this too has to become another Windows 8 whingefest.

Need less speculation and appreciate what is already out there, like the awesome traffic aware Bing Map on WP7 (both freeway and local street). Weeeee.......... 

Go get a WP7 and feel the awesomeness already. It is extremely satisfying to get out of red freeway and see others stuck on traffic, and you just cruise around the almost empty street, harrr harrr harrr.

What's exciting and big about yet another Windows 8 tablet?

Haven't Acer, Dell, Lenovo etc. already promised Win 8 tablets? And of course, everyone was expecting a Nokia Windows 8 tablet as well.

.... BUT

http://www.crunchbase.com/company/yammer

VENTURE FUNDING TOTAL     $142M
Series A, 1/09 3
Charles River Ventures
Founders Fund
    $5M
Series B, 2/10 4
Emergence Capital Partners
Charles River Ventures
Goldcrest Investments
Ron Conway
Keith Rabois
    $10M
Series C, 11/10 5
U.S. Venture Partners
Emergence Capital Partners
Charles River Ventures
Founders Fund
    $25M
Series D, 9/11 6
The Social+Capital Partnership
Chamath Palihapitiya
    $17M
Series E, 2/12 7
Draper Fisher Jurvetson
Social + Capital Partnership
Meritech Capital Partners
Khosla Ventures
Capricorn Venture Partners
Charles River Ventures
Founders Fund
US Venture Partners
Emergence Capital Partners
Max Levchin
CrunchFund
Ronnie Lott

No.... the Microsoft board just gave the MSFT investor money to Michael Arrington and Paul Carr. OMFG, show some restraint next time.

Thanks for the money MSFT investors. It comes out to 100k per nasty thing I wrote about M$, now that's ROI. You guys are SMART!

I'm going to dance my happy dance now, yay!

MG is my new hero. He made Microsoft fund it's own bad press for years to come.

To the lowly Microsoft employee working in tech support for years, this dude above just got all your company's money, not you. This guy who trashed Microsoft for years.

That's corporate leadership. Your corporate leadership. Now go and buy a slurpee with that bonus.

14 hours ago, wastingtimewithforums wrote

If all this fuss is really just about a tablet, then Microsoft's infamous marketing department has truly outdone itself.

What's exciting and big about yet another Windows 8 tablet?

Haven't Acer, Dell, Lenovo etc. already promised Win 8 tablets? And of course, everyone was expecting a Nokia Windows 8 tablet as well.

Some speculate that this one will bear the Microsoft brand, which would make it pretty special.

It would give them free rein wrt software installed, they could establish a "reference design" for all W8 tablets to come, they could subsidize it all they want. And since they wouldn't have to pay for the OS, they would level the field with the competition while screwing the OEMs big time.

That's the reason why a MS tablet would be exciting...

2 hours ago, Blue Ink wrote

while screwing the OEMs big time.

And destroy their entire business model? I doubt it.

1 hour ago, GoddersUK wrote

*snip*

And destroy their entire business model? I doubt it.

I had the same reaction, at first, but that might not be the case. Not necessarily at least. If I were an OEM, I would be wary of W8 tablets getting the same lukewarm welcome that WP7 got: there's little to be gained by getting the largest slice of the pie when the pie is ridiculously small.

MS spearheading the effort of establishing a presence in the market segment (or in a loosely related one, like that of eReaders) might end up making life easier for OEMs, despite the fact that they end up with a much smaller share. Except that the pie might then be large enough.

And with this I exceeded my yearly quota for speculation...

38 minutes ago, Ian2 wrote

I hope to God that someone announces that there isn't an announcement if there isn't an announcement

Are you making an announcement for this? Pronouncement? Denouncement?

+1 for Metro Clippy

3 hours ago, blowdart wrote

Personally I think all the excitement around the return of Metro Clippy is great.

"MSFT fell 15 points after Monday's announcement."

43 minutes ago, blowdart wrote

OK ok I'm kidding. Really, we're going to announce we're bringing back Firefly.

You mean, mean, mean person you

30 minutes ago, PaoloM wrote

*snip*

You mean, mean, mean person you

I'm in your sky, taking it from you

15 minutes ago, Minh wrote

chances are it's going to be underwhelming...

Naw, the holographic Steve Jobs will be great.

What? Too Soon?

- A talking pocket Metro Clippy, really an enhanced USB drive with sound, one end with micro-USB so it works with WP7 too! Dare I say bluetooth enabled? Hands-free? A Clippy-clip for your shirt's pocket protector?

One thing is certain -- no work can be done until the reveal --

Who's gonna tell the lead of the TV show 'Castle' that he has to go back up in there and be a halfway serious actor again on a set that's full of styrofoam cheese bricks, space guns and cowboys?

If it was new MS hardware then I think someone would have leaked it by now - unless it's something that won't be available for months.

It could be someone else's hardware carrying an MS badge, or some software/service thingy.

Well, I don't want to sit on the fence like an IT analyst, so I'm going to plump for Office for the iPad.

Frankly, the only device atm I'd love to get is updated Sony PRS-T1 or similar, this time with larger and higher res display for improved PDF etc reading. If I were rich I'd also look into getting Sony pvm-2541 and Red Ray projector (when available if it's any good).

-Josh

First to break it here, on Channel 9. I win!

I want.

2 minutes ago, Bass wrote

So what happens with the coffee table Microsoft Surface? Is that going to be Microsoft Surface Coffee Table Edition?

It really looks like it has all the benefits of a tablet and all the benefits of a laptop - I'd seriously consider one. The problem is I can't see them getting this out at a price point that's under say £700 (over £1000 pounds wouldn't surprise me...)

Specs: http://www.microsoft.com/global/surface/en/us/renderingassets/surfacespecsheet.pdf

"Touch Cover measures the force of each finger. So it knows the difference between resting your hands on the keyboard, and pressing actual keys." - wow!

"Touch Cover measures the force of each finger. So it knows the difference between resting your hands on the keyboard, and pressing actual keys." - wow!

If this is true... certainly gives weight to their claim that it's possible to touchtype on.

16 seconds ago, Richard.Hein wrote

Looks great ... ship it!

Availability will dovetail with the Windows 8 launch. That's for RT. Pro doesn't come until about three months later.

Perhaps the most unappealing thing of what I've seen so far is the aspect ratio (and the $1000 quoted for the Intel version). I like wide screen. In a movie theater. Something halfway between 4:3 and this might be a compromise I could deal with.

Although t's a mistake to think the majority of consumers understand cpu architecture. They'll buy this thinking they're getting Windows. There will be disappointment. 

Can I watch the announcement somewhere?

-Josh

25 minutes ago, brian.shapiro wrote

Is there no way to make a tablet with a dual-CPU x86/ARM that can switch between OS versions and has common storage?

What's the point, battery life?

I like what I see, but I am somewhat troubled that MS is trying to make hardware again. With the exception of the Xbox 360, when has that ever worked out for them?

They need to get the price well under ultrabook levels if they want to compete with the iPad. With that said, this device is sexy and the video posted is very slick. But I'd much rather see it coming from Acer or Dell than Microsoft directly.

It's also nice to see touch, pen, and keyboard input in a thin tablet.

But why launch 3 months after Windows 8? Make it a launch device. 3 months after misses the holiday season (unless the rumored July launch date is actually true).

12 seconds ago, spivonious wrote

I like what I see, but I am somewhat troubled that MS is trying to make hardware again. With the exception of the Xbox 360, when has that ever worked out for them?

How do you define worked-out? I think MS does a top-notch job on peripherals. The Zune hardware wasn't half bad, but the business plan was terrible.

They need to get the price well under ultrabook levels if they want to compete with the iPad. With that said, this device is sexy and the video posted is very slick. But I'd much rather see it coming from Acer or Dell than Microsoft directly.

38 minutes ago, JoshRoss wrote

*snip*

 I think MS does a top-notch job on peripherals.

*snip*

Yes, indeed, and now the PC is a peripheral, and Azure is the OS.

C

27 minutes ago, Charles wrote

That's all you got, Niners?

C

Are you trying to drum up conversation, Charles? 

Give folk a chance; the UK is still asleep!

8 hours ago, Ray7 wrote

Mmmm.

If it was new MS hardware then I think someone would have leaked it by now - unless it's something that won't be available for months.

It could be someone else's hardware carrying an MS badge, or some software/service thingy.

Well, I don't want to sit on the fence like an IT analyst, so I'm going to plump for Office for the iPad.

I should have stayed on the fence. 

Still, this won't see the light of day for a time so the hardware leakers didn't really disappoint. Not quite sure this is the finished product, but the idea seems very sound to me. At the very least it gives the hardware partners something to aim at (a very good thing) and keeps Apple on its toes (an even better thing).  

Though if I were in charge of marketing, I would have kept the word 'vapor' out of the spec list until the device was closer to shipping.

How will the hardware partners react? Well, IMO, they're getting exactly what they deserve because they've been pretty mediocre for the past five years. MS needed to step just to point them in the right direction. The other thing is that MS can afford to sell this at a loss if they need to; the OEMs have nothing to gain by doing that.

11 hours ago, MasterPie wrote

*snip*

"MSFT fell 15 points after Monday's announcement."

Quite common after an announcement of this magnitude. A lot of folk decide to take profits for some reason, rather than waiting it out. 

3 hours ago, JoshRoss wrote

I wonder how well the track pad works on the type cover? And, has anyone noticed the torx screws on the bottom? How refreshing to see hardware that screams, "Take me apart!" Also, the pro has what seems to be a 207 dpi screen, or maybe my math is wrong.

-Josh

Close. It's 213 according to this:

http://members.ping.de/~sven/dpi.html

I expected more reaction from the Niner population. Understood about timing, though. Tomorrow will be fruitful.
C

2 hours ago, itsnotabug wrote

For a company of this size, for an announcement of this importance, there are an awful lot of jpg compression artifacts on that first page of the Surface site.

I've never seen a site that auto-scales the images as you resize the browser window. I think it's a pretty cool feature.

Looking forward to getting more details once I've had morning coffee!

9 minutes ago, itsnotabug wrote

@cbae: Oh wow. I didn't even notice that... I'm running 1920 x 1080 and it gets grainy with my browser at full screen.

Since the image is only 980 x 717, it's understandable. Interestingly, the images in the gallery section autoscale too, but they stop getting bigger at a certain point. I download edthe high-res images using the download link from the gallery page, and the images are 4000x2250. Maybe they should have used one of those on the first page (Video section). LOL.

Will it have NFC?

Marketing 

Microsoft's marketing/web-site launch of this product is horrible. What the hell is wrong with Microsoft marketing department? That video is like a 90s car commercial where they keep saying nonsense words like "power" "elegance" "freedom" and then finally at the end of the commercial say the name of the product like it stands for all that stuff.  

Half of the video doesn't even SHOW the damn product, it is just metal falling all over the place and then finally at the end they give you 3 seconds of product, name it, and we are done. 

The web-site is also bare bones. And not bare-bones in a "less is more" way but bare-bones in "WHERE THE HELL IS THE INFORMATION?!" way. The only concrete information seems to be purely from a PDF (wtf?) and even that contains little concrete information.   

Honestly based purely on the web-site and video I cannot help but think that Microsoft wants this to fail. Maybe I've just been spoiled by Apple having a half competent marketing department where they upload videos talking about the product's features, benefits, and uses. Then have detailed specs pages (e.g. battery life) and even prices on day 0!   

I would take a YouTube-style unboxing over literally everything Microsoft has done to launch this product, including the event. Cost of that video: $100. Cost of all of this buzzword filled art student made tat: $1,000,000.   

0/10 for marketing. Epic fail - again. 

Product

I'm going to base my opinions of the product purely from The Verge since they have coverage of the product (as opposed to Microsoft's pages). 

 - Very impressed. Really feels like a "step forward." 
 - Love the kick stand, it is a "little touch" but a hugely useful one.
 - The keyboard/protector is neat, I'd need to try it in order to see how responsive it is and if the keys provide any "feedback." 
 - Definitely competing with the Asus Transformer range.   
 - The pen is a useless gimmick (as it is on all mobile devices).

But that being said I cannot make a "buy, no buy" decision since they failed to tell me the ONLY two things I really care about:    

 - Battery life. 
 - Price.  

If the price is higher than the Asus Transformer with its keyboard/battery, then I likely would buy that product instead. Yes Microsoft's product is lighter and thinner but the Transformer gets like 16 hrs battery life!  

If Microsoft's product has less than a 5 hr battery life in the "real world"  that is just an automatic no-buy. If they have less than 6~7 hrs then it still makes the iPad look like a better product, in particular as I expect this to over-cut the iPad's price. 

Really impressed, can't wait to see more!

Total game changer this

Is there a list of information sources for this thing yet?

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/default.aspx

Oh, I guess this is a good place to start:

http://www.bing.com/news/search?q=microsoft+surface&FORM=BNFD

Simply because using this thing on a lap seems to be a messy ordeal. Maybe I am too cynical, but where's the beef anyway? Plug-in a USB keyboard into a tablet, and get a display holder, and you have pretty much the same thing.

The last picture shows an iPad, with a holder and pluged-in keyboard.

The holder costs less than a dollar! And of course it can work with pretty much any other tablet too.

So, enligthen me, what is the big deal? And even with such a setup, I still prefer a mouse and would rather not smudge the screen the whole time like a retarded monkey.

2 hours ago, Charles wrote

@Ray7: This is a new type of computing device - designed and built by Microsoft. The style and form factor are stunning.  

I expected more reaction from the Niner population. Understood about timing, though. Tomorrow will be fruitful.
C

Well, we have a reaction from ZDNet:

Perhaps wait for someone else.

They didn't actually comment much on the actual device, more on the effect on Microsoft's partners, who, to my mind, haven't really been advancing the cause.

It's actually a lot more like this:

But the touch pad is a really nice touch.

8 minutes ago, Proton2 wrote

I miss having pen / stylus input.

Then you will be happy this comes with
"The Windows 8 Pro model of the Surface has a larger battery and comes with a stylus that magnetically clips to the side of the Surface when not in use. The tablet detects when the stylus is close to the screen and conveniently disables touch input, preventing you from accidentally touching the screen with your finger or palm."

source; http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/review/tablets/microsoft/surface/428002

4 minutes ago, Ray7 wrote

@wastingtimewithforums:

It's actually a lot more like this:

Darn, this makes it even more underwhelming.

When I think about my own requirements I guess I have:

1. Work: Time at a desk

2. Work: Travel and office hopping / meetings

3. Leisure: Time in the lounge

4. Leisure: Out and about

For me this would tick two of the boxes  really well (2 and 4). It might also be OK for 3.  I would want to see the specs before I used it as my main CPU for 1 but I would certainly give it a go.

So I think the Intel device is the one I probably would get most use out of, but will I be able to resist the first ARM device?  (Answer: No, I will justify it on the basis that I need it to properly test out my Apps)

3 hours ago, Charles wrote

@Ray7: This is a new type of computing device - designed and built by Microsoft. The style and form factor are stunning.  

I expected more reaction from the Niner population. Understood about timing, though. Tomorrow will be fruitful.
C

A 3% share price drop right there Never heard you pump up anything before.

I wouln't mind getting one of these, depending on price and battery capacity. To hand it to apple, they do include these in their events, which make me think Microsoft is a little desperate .

Anyway, it looks good, the cover is great (anyone saying that you could just get a regular tablet, a stand and a keyboard accesory is missing the point spectacularly) and overall reaction I've seen is good. Would it have been better if you could order it now? Yes, but then again the iPad and iPhone were only available six months after announcement as well. Of course, they didn't have any catching up to do, but still.

That ZDnet article is laughable by the way. Journalists "have to" travel the globe to hear about something that won't be available for months all the time, and they do so happily each time. What do they care, after all? They make their money from writing about it, not from buying it.

5 minutes ago, Bas wrote

anyone saying that you could just get a regular tablet, a stand and a keyboard accesory is missing the point spectacularly

Why?

Apple and other tablet makers could very easily ship their devices with a stand and a keyboard well before Surface even ships.

In Apple's case these additional items wouldn't even make a dent in profit.

But I guess the proof will be in the pudding. 

1 hour ago, wastingtimewithforums wrote

*snip*

Why?

Apple and other tablet makers could very easily ship their devices with a stand and a keyboard well before Surface even ships.

Yes, they can. But they don't. Because they're selling their stuff purely as tablets. If you want, there's an accesory that lets you type easier, and possibly a mouse/trackpad (is there a trackpad peripheral for iOS and Android devices? I have no idea), but that's an accesory for a subset of the tablet users that want it. This, however, isn't a tablet in the traditional sense anymore. The different in usage scenarios is vast.

With the "pro" version, I think it was unattractively bulky as well, not really in a tablet category of thinness.

And since the other version doesn't have Intel, there's not need to talk about that unless its being sold at something like $299 tops. It's a v1 product and consumers either assume all windows apps work or assume there's nothing available compared to Ipad.

I think people (looking for the pro version) know to wait for a v3 or atleast v2 with the biggest points addressed.

Last, what kind is the power/charging interface and battery life. I've read that the most commonly failing part in PC (OEM) laptops is the charger connector.

8 minutes ago, Ian2 wrote

@Ray7:Are you splitting hairs with me?

Er .. no, I was asking if it was detachable. I just looked it up.

Given how similar lame things are hyped today...  this could work.

6 minutes ago, Bas wrote

That's like saying the Smart Cover is an accesory to the iPad. Sure, it's available separately, but the two are entwined so much it's obvious they were designed to be used together. And this is a lot more functional in the OS than just waking it up.

So, it's an accessory. Fair enough. For a second there I thought folk were saying it was permanently attached.

There is a good demo of the attach/detach action around 16:45 and then more detail at 38:00. 

I had to smile when the background of Windows 8 changed to match the colour of the cover, nice touch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jozTK-MqEXQ

And pressure sensitive which, apart from typing, makes me think I want an alternative 'real piano'  keyboard cover to use the device for midi. (If you guys are working on this please let me know - I would be happy to test it for you!)

*I thought he dealt with 13:37 pretty well)

15 minutes ago, Ian2 wrote

@Ray7:Oh OK, I though maybe you were calling me out ...   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jozTK-MqEXQ

Seriously?

34 minutes ago, wastingtimewithforums wrote

I still think this is just a tablet with a pluged-in keyboard and a 50 cent plastic stand holder.. but you know what?

Given how similar lame things are hyped today...  this could work.

Yes, I'm finding it hard to get excited about this, but if the price is right there's no need why they shouldn't sell them by the bucketload.

7 minutes ago, Ian2 wrote

@Ray7:No, but I like that you thought I might be

Well I did wonder. 

39 minutes ago, wastingtimewithforums wrote

I still think this is just a tablet with a pluged-in keyboard and a 50 cent plastic stand holder.. but you know what?

Given how similar lame things are hyped today...  this could work.

The video helps to explain the concepts behind it and fill in some detail around the design, definitely worth an hour or so of your time. 

IMO this is the next logical step for a PC rather than just being a gimmick the time has been taken to do it right.

52 minutes ago, Ray7 wrote

*snip*

Yes, I'm finding it hard to get excited about this, but if the price is right there's no need why they shouldn't sell them by the bucketload.

And there is the pen input of course ...

55 minutes ago, Ian2 wrote

*snip*

The video helps to explain the concepts behind it and fill in some detail around the design, definitely worth an hour or so of your time. 

OK, watched it. My pants and underwear are still dry though.

Ballmer started it with a Jobs-tastic marketing babble ("everyone is excited about Metro and Windows 8!") and then it went on and on about how light it is and the cool things they are doing with magnesium and their l33t metallurgy skillz.

Touch cover also feels just like a book, should be also available at sex shops and the guy who designed would probably marry it right away if he wouldn't have his pesky wife around him.

The actual workflow presentation was very shallow though. Some good old stylus magic and the fact that you can copy files to it..

Frankly, there was not much shown what another tablet with pluged-in keyboard and plastic holder couldn't do. I doubt the general public cares much about Dumbledore-approved magnesium-alchemy given how many cheap plastic crapdroids are selling.

Kudos though for noticing that typing letters on a touchscreen * sucks. For this alone I hope this device will be more succesful than the other touch-only devices and stomps out the everything-must-be-touch disease.

7 hours ago, Ray7 wrote

Though if I were in charge of marketing, I would have kept the word 'vapor' out of the spec list until the device was closer to shipping.

I thought the exact same thing when I saw that. It's just tempting fate.

6 hours ago, ManipUni wrote

  - The pen is a useless gimmick (as it is on all mobile devices).

I don't think that's true at all. In universities, for instance, tablet + stylus are widely used for delivering lectures and as a practical replacement for the somewhat impractical interactive whiteboards ("smartboards") that everyone was hyping a few years back. In fact I think in any situation where you want to do handwriting on your device a stylus is the best option (for instance someone above mentioned equation input).

23 minutes ago, wastingtimewithforums wrote

 and then it went on and on about how light it is and the cool things they are doing with magnesium and their l33t metallurgy skillz.

Don't dis metallurgy!

 what another tablet with pluged-in keyboard and plastic holder couldn't do. I doubt the general public cares much about Dumbledore-approved magnesium-alchemy given how many cheap plastic crapdroids are selling.

Err... how about running a full desktop OS, and all the associated feature (on the intel version of the Surface).

4 minutes ago, GoddersUK wrote

Err... how about running a full desktop OS

You forgot the scientific consensus that the desktop is crippled on Win 8.

Maybe I'm reading things into it, but perhaps that means things like Pixelsense may come.  Maybe it's not needed, if Kinect gets integrated in v2 instead.  And the thing is now I'm sure that the Kinect will eventually be integrated, because it is Microsoft's hardware.  That's the kicker ... and wow that's great, now they can really innovate in that space and we need someone other than Apple trying to do that.  So, MS is pulling an Apple, after seeing the business model works so well they can't ignore it.  So what happens to the relationship with the PC makers?  I don't know!  What should happen?  Did Microsoft say they are going to license it like Windows Phone 7, but have their own?  How does this work?

I do think the manufacturing process of these kinds of devices is being commoditized so the way to distinguish yourself is to make a beautiful tablet and MS has the power behind this to drive a whole ecosystem, so I am excited about it, and as I said to my fiancée last night, "this means my investment in MS software development will likely pay off for another 10 years and isn't wasted; I don't have to become an Apple developer".  I have been wish MS would do this for years.   With the Zune it was a painful lesson.  I had one and it was great, but the store wasn't even available in Canada when I got it.  It's stuff like that I hope doesn't get in the way.

Overall I'm excited about it, and have to read/see more to know for sure, but right now I feel like I'd buy one right away.

1 minute ago, wastingtimewithforums wrote

*snip*

You forgot the scientific consensus that the desktop is crippled on Win 8.

Scientific consensus? *snort*

11 minutes ago, GoddersUK wrote

I don't think that's true at all. In universities, for instance, tablet + stylus are widely used for delivering lectures and as a practical replacement for the somewhat impractical interactive whiteboards ("smartboards") that everyone was hyping a few years back. In fact I think in any situation where you want to do handwriting on your device a stylus is the best option (for instance someone above mentioned equation input).

Reasons pen input is not a gimick:

1. Truly mobile scenarios such as your doctor taking notes at your bedside require one handed, fast input, which you won't get from a keyboard, virtual or otherwise.

2. True note taking requires the ability to jot notes anywhere, to be able to draw, etc. You can't beat pen input when brain storming.

3. Drawing and CAD applications simply aren't going to work well with a fat finger.

4. Accessibility concerns often means that pen input is preferred or even necessary. Ask someone with bad arthritis (a large segment of the consumer population) if they'd rather use a keyboard, touch screen or stylus.

Jobs was simply wrong. If you require a pen, you're failing, but if you don't have good pen support your failing even worse. With the keyboard and pen these devices aren't just consumption devices, and as such they are far more appealing to me.

7 minutes ago, wkempf wrote

 

Jobs was simply wrong. If you require a pen, you're failing, but if you don't have good pen support your failing even worse.

Which does go some way to explain why Apple hasn't sold a single iPa... oh hang on.

Jobs' mode of operation is pretty well known: you don't need it until we give it you.

That was lame. The only thing that was lamer was 'the 4 facet of the cloud' marketing b/s

5 hours ago, fanbaby wrote

*snip*

A 3% share price drop right there Never heard you pump up anything before.

I wouln't mind getting one of these, depending on price and battery capacity. To hand it to apple, they do include these in their events, which make me think Microsoft is a little desperate . 

MSFT is up 3.5% this morning. Remind me to never take any finance tips from you.

31 minutes ago, fanbaby wrote

@Ian2:Ballmer: "They [software+hardware] want to create, and they wand to consume, they want ... [etc. etc.]

That was lame. The only thing that was lamer was 'the 4 facet of the cloud' marketing b/s

Actually, your post is right up there.

44 minutes ago, Ray7 wrote

*snip*

Which does go some way to explain why Apple hasn't sold a single iPa... oh hang on.

Jobs' mode of operation is pretty well known: you don't need it until we give it you.

I think he means in the context of producing a product for his particular use cases. Clearly, for the use cases of finger painting and playing Angry Birds, nothing beats the iPad.

39 minutes ago, fanbaby wrote

@Ian2:Ballmer: "They [software+hardware] want to create, and they wand to consume, they want ... [etc. etc.]

That was lame. The only thing that was lamer was 'the 4 facet of the cloud' marketing b/s

The what?? I think I missed that video.

4 minutes ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

I think he means in the context of producing a product for his particular use cases. Clearly, for the use cases of finger painting and playing Angry Birds, nothing beats the iPad.

I see what you did there ... 

18 minutes ago, Ian2 wrote

@fanbaby:  At present it is the PC (inc Macs) that in the main create the content for iPads (which largely just 'consume' data).  What Ballmer is saying is that the surface, as a PC, is up to the job of handling both creation and consumption of data/information.

Gotcha. I think I understand where he's going with this. Can't wait to see the marketing behind this. Should be an interesting bun fight.

"Jobs' mode of operation is (sic) pretty well known: you don't need it until we give it (sic) you." Pardon me if I was never one to fall under the influence of the RDF. Jobs did a great job of proving you could be wrong and still be successful.

3 minutes ago, wkempf wrote

Read the questions asked in forums for the iPad or any other touch device and you'll hear plenty of people asking where they can find a stylus.

I had a friend who wanted to take notes in a lecture with his iPad. He bought a stylus and found a note taking app, and really struggled with the ordeal for a few days. Then, he gave up and decided that the iPad was purely a tool for consumption - you can't really create anything with it.

15 minutes ago, wkempf wrote

@cbae: Yep. A whole lot of mopeds have been sold as well. That doesn't mean you're doing it wrong if you allow someone to drive on the freeway. Even as a consumption device, I believe Jobs was wrong. Read the questions asked in forums for the iPad or any other touch device and you'll hear plenty of people asking where they can find a stylus. Often it's for accessability reasons: there are plenty of people for whom touch input is uncomfortable, difficult and even impossible. That's also just within the narrow definition of use cases that Steve was targeting.

"Jobs' mode of operation is (sic) pretty well known: you don't need it until we give it (sic) you." Pardon me if I was never one to fall under the influence of the RDF. Jobs did a great job of proving you could be wrong and still be successful.

consider yourself pardoned, but you missed the point. Jobs always knew that a stylus was needed, but part of the secret of their success is waiting for the competition to do it wrong before they attempt to do it right. There is a whole list of stuff that Apple said you didn't need then turned around and delivered it: windows that can be resized from any side; a mouse that at least pretended it had a second button; an API for their phone.

Not saying they will ever do a stylus, but I am saying don't pay too much attention to what Apple says today; they are quite shameless when it comes to U-turns.

1 hour ago, Ian2 wrote

@fanbaby:  At present it is the PC (inc Macs) that in the main create the content for iPads (which largely just 'consume' data).  What Ballmer is saying is that the surface, as a PC, is up to the job of handling both creation and consumption of data/information.

Sure, I was just talking about the form, i.e. the marketing speak (who writes these things, i guess the boss himself).

You should really look up the 4 facets of the cloud from about a year ago, which BTW has come and gone and left no impression, where he talks about the cloud (the cloud wants this and the could wants that).

39 minutes ago, Ray7 wrote

*snip*

consider yourself pardoned, but you missed the point. Jobs always knew that a stylus was needed, but part of the secret of their success is waiting for the competition to do it wrong before they attempt to do it right. There is a whole list of stuff that Apple said you didn't need then turned around and delivered it: windows that can be resized from any side; a mouse that at least pretended it had a second button; an API for their phone.

Not saying they will ever do a stylus, but I am saying don't pay too much attention to what Apple says today; they are quite shameless when it comes to U-turns.

 

I didn't miss your point. You missed mine. "Don't pay too much attention to what Apple says today...", but I'm buying the device today. "You're doing it wrong" is an insult to me, because I need (or at least want) the stylus. His method of operation really only worked because of the RDF. People bought his BS, and therefore bought his products. I'm not buying a toy or an art piece, I'm buying a tool/productivity device. So I found most of what Jobs had to say to be insulting and pretentious, not insightful and intelligent. I'm not willing to wait for "the man" to make a U-turn and proclaim "but when we finally did it, we did it right!"

12 hours ago, Charles wrote

That's all you got, Niners?

C

I'll need an intel and arm unit first.  The shipping address is <deleted so google doesn't fly over taking more pics> 

Under $400 for the Windows 8 Pro version

Under $300 for the  Windows RT

I seriously doubt Microsoft will be this aggressive.

4 minutes ago, raymond wrote

A very aggressive pricing point will be key if they expect ot take marketing share from Apple.

Under $400 for the Windows 8 Pro version

Under $300 for the  Windows RT

I seriously doubt Microsoft will be this aggressive.

 

Other devices will go the route of cheap. To compete against Apple the RT version could go as high as $450 and the Pro version as high as $1000. $450 is $50 cheaper than the cheapest iPad. $1000 is higher than the most expensive iPad, but it's also a full PC. My money is on $400 and $800 give or take. This makes them "competitive" against comparable tablets and ultrabooks respectively, which is what Microsoft said at the press conference. I'd love to see cheaper, but don't expect to, and frankly they don't need to.

Because last year, didn't Apple announced that devs sold $2 billions worth of apps? Then 30% of that goes to Apple.

The question is then, does MS sell more than 30% of $2B in Win8 licenses to OEMs?

I would expect pricing parity with the equivalent spec iPad and high end Ultrabook respectively.

The pro one... I wouldn't be surprised at $1000. It'd be a mistake, but it wouldn't surprise me. I wonder if they can sell these things at a loss by subsidizing them from app sales, sort of like with the 360.

Edit: so, yeah. What Minh said. *cough*

1 hour ago, JoshRoss wrote

@raymond: You'd be luck to get the 64GB of flash for $400.

I don't see why, they could just drop the chips from a couple of these in:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/32GB-SanDisk-Class-4-32-G-GB-SD-HC-Secure-Digital-Memory-Card-/280886141110?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_PDAsAccessories_MemoryCards&hash=item41661e60b6

Unless that extra $350 all goes into making the flash chips faster (because I do agree that a class 4 sd card probably isn't fast enough to run an OS off at decent performance... but surely it doesn't take an extra $350 to get to that performance?).

5 hours ago, wastingtimewithforums wrote

*snip*

OK, watched it. My pants and underwear are still dry though.

Ballmer started it with a Jobs-tastic marketing babble ("everyone is excited about Metro and Windows 8!") and then it went on and on about how light it is and the cool things they are doing with magnesium and their l33t metallurgy skillz.

Touch cover also feels just like a book, should be also available at sex shops and the guy who designed would probably marry it right away if he wouldn't have his pesky wife around him.

The actual workflow presentation was very shallow though. Some good old stylus magic and the fact that you can copy files to it..

Frankly, there was not much shown what another tablet with pluged-in keyboard and plastic holder couldn't do. I doubt the general public cares much about Dumbledore-approved magnesium-alchemy given how many cheap plastic crapdroids are selling.

Kudos though for noticing that typing letters on a touchscreen * sucks. For this alone I hope this device will be more succesful than the other touch-only devices and stomps out the everything-must-be-touch disease.

The RT version? Meh.

The presentation was not that good. To me, it came across as a desperate sales pitch from the 50s, especially when someone shoehorned the phrase 'liquid metal' into it. The crash was pretty much expected, as this is very much a version 1.0 product (nice recovery though).

The whole new paradigm thing? Mmmm. Not really.

In fact I was getting quite bored until they wheeled on the Intel version. 

Now we're talkin'!  This covers everything that MS needs it to. For light workloads, it could be the device to replace EVERYTHING, and most importantly, it can handle the legacy stuff too. 

Watching them use it on stage though, I was a little concerned about the interface. When I tried it, I did find it a little bit tiresome trying to get to where I wanted. I put this down to unfamiliarity, but now I'm not so sure.

Both devices look extremely well put together though. They've built something without compromise (the digitiser stuff sounds amazing)

I was quite impressed actually.

But of course, if you're not a tablet fan...

I like the frankness this reviewer shares. ...Did Apple ever buy back the stock Microsoft bought from them to keep them solvent?

Microsoft isn't a follower but a leader. For anyone in the Apple Fan Club suggesting Microsoft is imitating iPad's maker, get a real life. Put down the Kool-Aid. Microsoft pioneered the tablet market a decade ago and sought to break into the low-cost, touchscreen computer market six years past. But the company was beholden to hardware partners. No longer. Microsoft is doing with Surface what it should have done years ago -- design, brand and sell its own PC hardware, software and services platform. The software giant has bled too much for OEMs far too long.

re: http://betanews.com/2012/06/19/surface-is-project-origamis-revenge/

35 minutes ago, Ray7 wrote

*snip*

The presentation was not that good. To me, it came across as a desperate sales pitch from the 50s, especially when someone shoehorned the phrase 'liquid metal' into it. 

The last ten minutes were quite lol worthy though - the Touch Cover presentation.

"When you touch, you wanna gonna hold it. I promise you"

"Nothing stirrs me more, nothing gets me more excited than Touch Cover!"

"My Surface knows what is connected to it"

"It also had to be a cover you wanted to connect. Something you always had with you, something that gave you confidence"

"You can't miss, we force you do not miss!"

"feels like a book, holds like book, organically like a book, carries like a book! Bookasm!!"

"it just feels... perfect."

"you gonna fall in love with Touch Cover, I know I have. I am seriously in love with it, and besides my wife, Touch Cover is my number two. It's very important to me. I never want to take Touch Cover off."

"you never have to take it off, and underneath your fingertips.. it feels GREAT!"

"an experience like no other"

Who needs youporn when you have Touch Cover?

12 minutes ago, wastingtimewithforums wrote

*snip*

The last ten minutes were quite lol worthy though - the Touch Cover presentation.

"When you touch, you wanna gonna hold it. I promise you".

Yes, you can try too hard with these things sometimes ... 

Actually, thinking about subisizing, Microsoft could track what device is used to purchase software and offer a percentage of their 30% take to the OEM of the device. That would allow them to do some subsidizing on the price, as well as encourage them to produce products consumers would truly like.

1 hour ago, GoddersUK wrote

*snip*

I don't see why, they could just drop the chips from a couple of these in:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/32GB-SanDisk-Class-4-32-G-GB-SD-HC-Secure-Digital-Memory-Card-/280886141110?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_PDAsAccessories_MemoryCards&hash=item41661e60b6

Unless that extra $350 all goes into making the flash chips faster (because I do agree that a class 4 sd card probably isn't fast enough to run an OS off at decent performance... but surely it doesn't take an extra $350 to get to that performance?).

 

Because it's not just a flash memory chip. It's better termed an SSD. In an SSD, everything from the chips to the controller tends to be much higher performance and quality than what goes into a CF or SD card.

29 minutes ago, spivonious wrote

I think the prices speculated above should be the MSRPs. $450 and $999. Then subsidize some big sales on launch so they're down to $349 and $799. Finally, sell them at big box stores. Microsoft Stores and online is not going to get Windows 8 into the hands of the common consumer. There is one Apple store in my town, and seven within a two hour drive. There are zero Microsoft Stores in my state.

I'm curious what their bundling strategies will be (if any). Like, in the Microsoft Store currently, if you purchase certain Windows PCs as a student, you'll get a free 360. Of course, this in itself is a PC. They could just offer massive educational discounts...

Unless MS does profit sharing w/ the OEMs? Seems very doubtful...

But then MS needs help w/ the phones, too.. Do they want to p!ss Samsung off?

1 hour ago, Ray7 wrote

*snip*

The RT version? Meh.

The presentation was not that good. To me, it came across as a desperate sales pitch from the 50s, especially when someone shoehorned the phrase 'liquid metal' into it. The crash was pretty much expected, as this is very much a version 1.0 product (nice recovery though).

The whole new paradigm thing? Mmmm. Not really.

In fact I was getting quite bored until they wheeled on the Intel version. 

Now we're talkin'!  This covers everything that MS needs it to. For light workloads, it could be the device to replace EVERYTHING, and most importantly, it can handle the legacy stuff too. 

Watching them use it on stage though, I was a little concerned about the interface. When I tried it, I did find it a little bit tiresome trying to get to where I wanted. I put this down to unfamiliarity, but now I'm not so sure.

Both devices look extremely well put together though. They've built something without compromise (the digitiser stuff sounds amazing)

I was quite impressed actually.

But of course, if you're not a tablet fan...

 

Yeah, I felt like I was watching an episode of Mad Men there for a moment. The RT is a nice tablet, but the Pro is the one that impressed me as well. I was hoping they'd announce a docking station so one could plop it in and use it on a big monitor or TV without having to fiddle with cables.

3 minutes ago, DCMonkey wrote

*snip*

Yeah, I felt like I was watching an episode of Mad Men there for a moment. The RT is a nice tablet, but the Pro is the one that impressed me as well. I was hoping they'd announce a docking station so one could plop it in and use it on a big monitor or TV without having to fiddle with cables.

Third parties will fill in the blanks. 

46 seconds ago, Bass wrote

The Pro one would be a good purchase if it was priced in iPad territory.

I'm not sure they can do that unless they subsidize it. 

41 minutes ago, kettch wrote

*snip*

Because it's not just a flash memory chip. It's better termed an SSD. In an SSD, everything from the chips to the controller tends to be much higher performance and quality than what goes into a CF or SD card.

Yeah, but ten times the price?

30 minutes ago, MasterPie wrote

They could just offer massive educational discounts...

I wish they did this, rather than offer freebies. A free xbox might alter where I buy a new computer from or which model I buy; it's unlikely to alter whether or not I buy one at all or how high/low end what I buy is. I substantial discount, on the other hand, would increase both my likelihood of purchasing and cause me to buy a more expensive device.

And frankly cash is always better than a freebie.

27 minutes ago, Bass wrote

The Pro one would be a good purchase if it was priced in iPad territory. I'd definitely consider buying it.

I wonder if Sir Jony Ive is snapping the screen off a Macbook Air and having a long hard think....

17 hours ago, Charles wrote

That's all you got, Niners?

C

They had me at "stylus". Welcome back, Courier!

The devices are impressive, especially the Surface for Windows Pro, which is going to have decades of good software available off the bat. but even more impressive is the shift in Microsoft habits. Secrecy, for one.

Seriously, working for three years on a new device without leaving a prototype behind in a bar... you must have included teetotalism as a job requirement

C

-Josh

The only time I ever use a device for media consumption is in airplanes, when I use my laptop to watch movies. Admittedly a tablet would probably be more convenient for that (or at least have better battery life), but for that one use case, it's not worth it. It doesn't happen often enough.

The Pro version though, that could be interesting. My laptop serves three purposes: 1. it's my primary system at work, plugged into a large external monitor and regular keyboard; 2. to do work on the go and take notes in meetings and 3. as a media consumption device. The Surface Pro looks like it could do all those things, and could thus potentially replace the laptop. Although ideally it would need a slightly larger form factor for working on the go (I currently use a 13" laptop and already feel "trapped" by the screen size when I use it for work).

Some other random thoughts:

• They said it used full 1080p resolution. Does that mean it's running in high DPI? Otherwise everything would be tiny. So what happens when you attach a regular external monitor to it? Do you need to switch DPI settings? This is what I need to do with my laptop right now, and it's annoying.
• Will the touch cover spec be open? Will other OEMs be able to make keyboards or other peripherals that snap to a surface? Will they be able to make tablets that can use the Surface's touch covers?
• It'd be cool if there was a surface with magnetic connectors on two edges so you could use it in portrait mode. Though I imagine engineering a dual stand so it could be put up in either orientation would be complicated.
• The guy at the end of the video talking about the metallurgy was seriously creepy. Who thought it was a good idea to have him in the presentation?

1 hour ago, Sven Groot wrote

The guy at the end of the video talking about the metallurgy was seriously creepy. Who thought it was a good idea to have him in the presentation?

At least I can now vividly imagine the design process that went into Touch Cover.

9 hours ago, GoddersUK wrote

*snip*

Yeah, but ten times the price?

 

Yep

I do wonder what Tim Cook is thinking right now though and how he plans to spin the Refrigerator+Toaster comment now that Microsoft have shown exactly why a tablet and laptop just aren't different enough to need different OSs. It remains to be seen if he can u-turn quite as convincingly as Jobs used to.

MS makes nice keyboards & mice, but they don't exactly dominate the market or discourage OEMs from competing with them.

I see this as more MS showing OEM's what they need to do in chasing the Tablet market with Win8 - and the response they may get if they are prepared to make the commitment to more than just 'good enough' engineering.

MS pushed the tablet idea years ago, but could never get OEMs to commit to anything really useful or groundbreaking in hardware... it was always just minimal modification to existing designs, pen-only interface, and everyone lost interest in it.

MS can't risk that happening this time around - this is pretty much their last roll of the dice in this market, so they need to put a bomb under the OEMs and get them to be serious about it. Either make something better than this benchmark, or lose your tablet sales to it.

I'll bet that Acer, Asus and Samsung respond pretty quickly with something better.

I'm also guessing that Apple will soon roll out something to try and top it (or roll out a bunch of patent claims if they can't) now that they've seen this.

4 hours ago, elmer wrote

... I'll bet that Acer, Asus and Samsung respond pretty quickly with something better.

They already owe that to MS from their mishandling of tablets when first introduced to the world by MS. I doubt their offerings will be any better, in fact, I predict terrible hardware from a rush to market from 3rd parties.

On the price discussion, it's been reported that Digitimes (rumor house, so weigh info accordingly) claims Pegatron Technology is the ODM. Based on this they say the minimum prices are $599 and $799. The $799 figure hits the sweet spot, but that $599 price sounds high. The Surface RT needs to be priced comparable to the iPad. "At $599 that would price the RT tablet at the equivalent price to the 32 GB iPad with WIFI only, making the price not as expensive as it appears." True, but consumers are going to expect it (or some third option) to be priced comparable to the entry level iPad. http://microsoft-news.com/digitimes-microsoft-surface-rt-to-be-599-surface-pro-799/

8 hours ago, AndyC wrote

Buggiest forum. Ever!

I tried to remove them to save your blushes. Except, umm, it errored

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57456636-75/microsoft-will-withdraw-later-from-tablet-market-acer-founder/?tag=txt;title

1 hour ago, blowdart wrote

*snip*

I tried to remove them to save your blushes. Except, umm, it errored

LOL. Why am I unsurprised. In future I may just avoid posting while on my WP7 as editing posts on that is a b*gger.

11 minutes ago, GoddersUK wrote

So apparently the big cheese at Acer thinks Microsoft are just giving OEMs a kick up the backside and will pull out of the tablet business as soon as possible. I have to say I really hope this isn't true - the Surface looks to be a unique device well executed and I have no faith in Acer, or anyone else, to replicate it.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57456636-75/microsoft-will-withdraw-later-from-tablet-market-acer-founder/?tag=txt;title

Wishful thinking let's hope. Third parties are like grown children who won't leave the nest. Blech.

I would absolutely suspect Acer's spin is motivated to speak to their shareholders with truth or lies, whatever works best.

2 minutes ago, AndyC wrote

@JohnAskew: If third party vendors start delivering devices that meet that kind of quality bar, I don't really mind whether or not Microsoft actually have a device themselves.

I agree, but only MS will care enough about quality to deliver it.

I gladly pay a premium for quality. My gripe is all about quality.

27 minutes ago, AndyC wrote

@JohnAskew: If third party vendors start delivering devices that meet that kind of quality bar, I don't really mind whether or not Microsoft actually have a device themselves.

Yes, but I don't think anyone's holding out for that to happen...

1 hour ago, GoddersUK wrote

So apparently the big cheese at Acer thinks Microsoft are just giving OEMs a kick up the backside and will pull out of the tablet business as soon as possible. I have to say I really hope this isn't true - the Surface looks to be a unique device well executed and I have no faith in Acer, or anyone else, to replicate it.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57456636-75/microsoft-will-withdraw-later-from-tablet-market-acer-founder/?tag=txt;title

If (and that's a pie in the sky if) the OEMs produce worthwhile hardware, I could maybe, possibly see Microsoft pull out (assuming they think that is a better business decision for them, which if the Surface is making money is unlikely). But the article simply says the goal is to " prod device makers to bring out Windows 8 tablets", to which I call BS. OEMs are already falling over backwards to create Win8 devices. They all want a piece of the Apple (err... iPad) pie. They're already trying that with Android devices, but are getting nowhere. They hope a Microsoft device will do better. Every single one has multiple devices they are showing off already. So there's no reason for Microsoft to "prod device makers to bring out Windows 8 tablets". None. What they need is for OEMs to create devices that are compelling. Win8 devices that are nothing more than existing ultrabooks (or worse yet, notebooks) or Android tablets with Win8 thrown on them simply aren't going to work, and Microsoft knows that. I'm willing to bet that on launch day there are 3 dozen Win8 devices available. I'm also willing to bet that the only one that's truly new and unique is the Surface. Given past history with these OEMs, I bet it's not much different than that 12 months down the road.