Then we get "official" word from Microsoft employees that they can't comment about this. We're supposed to "just wait until BUILD" when supposedly they'll be able to tell us that the concerns were unfounded. Of course, that means until September there will be nothing but an increase in developer angst, and I'm sure several contracts lost by independent developers. Stupid. Microsoft really stepped in it, worse than they ever have (which is saying a lot, it seems).

But wait. It doesn't stop there.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/06/06/join-us-for-build.aspx

What's special about BUILD? It will be the first broad hands-on unveiling of the
next version of Windows and its new app model featuring HTML5 and
JavaScript. In short, building Web-connected apps for the next Windows is as
easy as building for the modern Web.

Really? If the official stance is that nothing more can be said about this disaster until BUILD, why the hell is an official blog piling onto the problem? Why are you saying ANYTHING at this point. Either lift the gag and alleviate some of the FUD, or shut the F up! How hard is it to understand this? Microsoft is imploding right now, and some major damage control is needed. Do NOT make it worse by continuing to communicate the wrong message, no matter how important you think it is to promote your shiny new toy.

Sorry for the rant, but in my mind this has just escalated beyond anything I could have ever expected.

You ask about the old stuff and no-one is interested in evangelising it.  This is exactly what happened when WPF came out (no-one made new videos of WinForms stuff once WPF was announced, despite the face that it's still widely used).

This is just the development PR machine trying to drum up interest in the next new shiny bits. It doesn't mean the old stuff is lost, it just means that the excitable evangelists won't be talking about it.

Herbie

If you've made it this far into life, you should be quite able to detect the difference between marketing BS and actual reality.  If you aren't the person who makes decisions about technology then convey it to the folks that do. 

I'd much rather have foreshadowing of what might happen so we can all comment on what we do and don't like about it.  This gives MS a chance to adjust...which they do.  As far back as I can remember, they've NEVER released a major product with the exact same features as those touted years in advance. 

The alternative is the giant festival of stupid that occurs when Apple wants to 'unveil' something.

5 minutes ago, Dr Herbie wrote

 

This is just the development PR machine trying to drum up interest in the next new shiny bits. It doesn't mean the old stuff is lost, it just means that the excitable evangelists won't be talking about it.

And that's exactly what customer (whom we write software for) listen & respond to. How are you supposed to sell a customer on developing their app in Silverlight/WPF when Microsoft made it pretty clear Silverlight/WPF is now legacy like Winforms?

They could have sold the shiny new desktop that was comprised of Silverlight but no windev went "not invented here" on us, thre shiny on it, and Ballmer bought it hook, line, and sinker.

WK's got it spot on. Economically it screws things up for us devs. What do will do until next year? Oh that's right convince our customers who just spent boatloads on a Silverlight/WPF app still in incubation that "it's ok... your app will still run on Windows 8". For new projects what do we tell them? Well XAML is kinda like HTML5...

One other piece I don't hear people talking about is the vast loss of open source code and published experience around Silverlight/WPF that won't be there for this next development platform. You'll go to Google on how to solve a problem and find nothing but crappy MSDN documentation. IMO, the windev guys just arrogantly sit there an say "Hey it will eventually get there. People just need time to get over the change." Well for anyone from windev that happens to read this post a big shout out to you by the letters F and U.

"Doctor! Doctor! It hurts when I do this!"

"Then don't do it!"

If you can't put the fires out, then don't be fanning the flames. That's pretty simple to understand, no?

11 minutes ago, ScanIAm wrote

 

The alternative is the giant festival of stupid that occurs when Apple wants to 'unveil' something.

Microsoft is right on track... FOS will start with the new era of windev and Windows 8.

You pitch software based on how your customer, client, or organization thinks:

22 minutes ago, ScanIAm wrote

@DeathByVisualStdio:

You pitch software based on how your customer, client, or organization thinks:

Customer Disposition	Tech
Play It Safe	Winforms/ASP.Net
Lookin to the Future	WPF/SL
OOOOOh Shiny!	HTML5/JS

if only it was that simple....

yes a lot of this is nutty marketing bs where MS is trying to say they are with it.

and that's the problem, MS does not have the patented iRDF that another company has...

they are not making the message convincing, they are just making it totally apperent that they are playing "catch up" and that makes the whole thing end up looking lame.

it sucks on so many levels as really MS did do a ton of work that lead to a huge amount of what's happening today... but with the average 5 minute attention span most folks never know the truth.

IE:  Media center, Tablet PC, MS AJAX (the first one), PocketPC etc....  all of them have driven a lot of the stuff that has just now taken off in a big way (in the last 1-2 years)

MS did them ... others are now getting credit for the first mass market consumer products that we have seen.

Now MS wants to get in on it but looks like they came late to the game that they helped start.

i agree that its a stupid post that doesnt  help at all.. someone at microsoft thought this would be the damage control that is needed ("featuring" html/js not "entirly based on" html/js)but they are obviously way off..

im guessing someone a bit closer to the devs/community figgured they had to do something, but they where still gagged by upper management terrible PR policy ("dont tell them anything, it'll make them like us more, it works for apple dont it??"). so they wrote this..

then again, it is the ie-blog so them talking about web tech is expected i guess, moronic in this context, but expected

hopefully the flames the post is getting will get someone higher up at microsoft to realise the massive c*ckup they've done and do something proper about it..

As someone that has invested in .NET in general, up to and including WPF, I will change to Apple or Java, depending on what transpires. I am not afraid of learning something new, but it seems a waste of time investing in a company that keeps rewriting and reinventing the wheel.

There is not a hope in hell that I will continue to be a .NET developer should this hyperbole turn out to be prescience. Not a hope in hell!

1 hour ago, vesuvius wrote

As someone that has invested in .NET in general, up to and including WPF, I will change to Apple or Java, depending on what transpires.

Apple or Java? What exactly do you do that makes you unsure about choosing two completely divergent technologies?

 I am not afraid of learning something new, but it seems a waste of time investing in a company that keeps rewriting and reinventing the wheel.

Then Apple is out for you. You may want to ask Adobe and that Carbon64 affaire...

There is not a hope in hell that I will continue to be a .NET developer should this hyperbole turn out to be prescience. Not a hope in hell!

We have a saying in Italy, that basically translates to: put your * in a bowl of cold water and calm down.

I find very healthy to start with these assumptions: You know nothing. And nobody is out to get you because, well, nobody really cares about you.

Makes for a much better lifestyle.

If I am honest, this is selfish of me, and self preservation at its most obvious. I worry about my future. I work for myself, and up till this announcement I was constantly turning work down because of the interest there is in WPF. I had a meeting with some senior management today, that are concerned about the announcement. This is a greenfield project written in WPF, they need to be certain that they can build on top of the WPF framework for at least the next decade, and not only that it will be supported, but that further enhancement will be made. WPF is by no means optimized. In this internet age bad news travels fast and I fear I may be out of work with no-one willing to further invest in WPF until clarity is provided.

We have a saying in Italy, that basically translates to: put your * in a bowl of cold water and calm down.

I should not need to be doing this at all. I took a decision, after a lot of information from DPE and Microsoft that there was a future in the platform. WPF is huge and it takes a long time to be proficient. Even if I make another bad decision and bet on Apple, nothing will compare with this. I think it injudicious (at best) to have a user base of millions of .NET application developers and say to them. Look now millions of web developers are going to do your job, and don't worry in the mean time, we will speak with you in three months or so. If that isn't a perfect recipe for indignation, I don't know what else is?

47 minutes ago, evildictait​or wrote

Fine - here's a response: Microsoft will continue to support old applications in exactly the same way that they always have. Happy now?

That is not an acceptable solution. So what you are saying is that anything that isn't an HTML5/JS crApplet would be considered legacy in Windows 8. There are many real applications that never was, isn't, and never will be able to be shoved into a browser. Once again I bring up this example. So any future version of that application would forever be considered a legacy application unless the whole thing is re-written in wonderful HTML5/JS.

I'm still baffled by the fact that some people think a browser is the answer to everything.

1 hour ago, vesuvius wrote

Apple or Java? What exactly do you do that makes you unsure about choosing two completely divergent technologies?

If I am honest, this is selfish of me, and self preservation at its most obvious. I worry about my future. I work for myself, and up till this announcement I was constantly turning work down because of the interest there is in WPF. I had a meeting with some senior management today, that are concerned about the announcement. This is a greenfield project written in WPF, they need to be certain that they can build on top of the WPF framework for at least the next decade, and not only that it will be supported, but that further enhancement will be made. WPF is by no means optimized. In this internet age bad news travels fast and I fear I may be out of work with no-one willing to further invest in WPF until clarity is provided.

We have a saying in Italy, that basically translates to: put your * in a bowl of cold water and calm down.

I should not need to be doing this at all. I took a decision, after a lot of information from DPE and Microsoft that there was a future in the platform. WPF is huge and it takes a long time to be proficient. Even if I make another bad decision and bet on Apple, nothing will compare with this. I think it injudicious (at best) to have a user base of millions of .NET application developers and say to them. Look now millions of web developers are going to do your job, and don't worry in the mean time, we will speak with you in three months or so. If that isn't a perfect recipe for indignation, I don't know what else is?

It is apparent that you just hear what you want to hear.

Sure, .NET will not be present in Windows 8. Everything will have to be coded in HTML5/JavaScript and there will be a special runtime agent (written in HTML5/JavaScript, of course) that will kill any other process running on the machine. DevDiv have been officially dissolved a year ago and there won't be any more tools or updates to WPF or Silverlight. Actually, Silverlight 5 beta never happened, it was just a dream..NET developers (or at least the ones that post on forums) are not a bunch of retards that react like headless chickens whenever anything new is shown to them.

Are you feeling better now?

9 minutes ago, Bass wrote

I hear you can buy a book on JavaScript for 50% off these days. You guys ought to act quickly before all the rest of the .NET refugees buy them out.

You need it to be 50% off so you can buy a book on jQuery with the leftover money

I already know Js, and I know .NET , I'd prefer to code in WPF over HTML+Js any day. If the issue with you is .NET isn't open source, I'd prefer the solution of open sourcing .NET rather than turning to Js+HTML

Not that I actually think Microsoft will abandon WPF, anyway; just speaking hypothetically.

1 hour ago, BitFlipper wrote

*snip*

That is not an acceptable solution. So what you are saying is that anything that isn't an HTML5/JS crApplet would be considered legacy in Windows 8.

Yes.  Kinda like how WinForms are considered legacy.  Except that in my experience, WinForms apps are always chosen over WPF, SL, and any other technology when written.  funny that.

There are many real applications that never was, isn't, and never will be able to be shoved into a browser. Once again I bring up this example. So any future version of that application would forever be considered a legacy application unless the whole thing is re-written in wonderful HTML5/JS.

They would only be considered legacy if you are the kind of person who likes shiny things.   Hmmmm... perhaps MSFT gets into the pattern of bringing up new technologies because so many developers like shiny things.  The cure?  Take a Ritalin.

A proper business wants tried and true technology.  WPF is getting there, but too many developers still don't have the XAML chops so it's just easier and cleaner to write WinForms apps knowing that you'll have a vast wealth of devs that understand it.

I'm still baffled by the fact that some people think a browser is the answer to everything.

It certainly is the answer to a question that goes like "How can I freak out a bunch of nancy developers".

3 hours ago, BitFlipper wrote

*snip*

That is not an acceptable solution. So what you are saying is that anything that isn't an HTML5/JS crApplet would be considered legacy in Windows 8. There are many real applications that never was, isn't, and never will be able to be shoved into a browser. Once again I bring up this example. So any future version of that application would forever be considered a legacy application unless the whole thing is re-written in wonderful HTML5/JS.

I'm still baffled by the fact that some people think a browser is the answer to everything.

You're worked up all over the use of the word "legacy"?

WinForms (and WPF) will always be a part of the .NET Framework, right through until Microsoft stops supporting it entirely (which is unlikely to happen for at least 20 years when you look at how Java's been used). Yes, there probably will be breaking changes between major releases of the framework but nothing that can't be fixed in 5 minutes with VS.

"Legacy" simply means "we won't be spending time adding new features", which is a good thing: it means the platform is stable. It does not mean "we're going to remove the whole feature entirely from the .NET Framework during the next security patch". WinForms is legacy no more than MFC or even CreateWindowEx are.

As for myself, I'm looking forward to some new stuff I want to implement in WinForms. There is so much unexplored potential in the platform.

I don't personally use WPF, for many reasons I've enumerated on this forum in the past, but today I discovered another reason: yet more inconsistency with the host platform. Apparently WPF Aero borders do not match the system defaults unless you hack it. Nice one, Microsoft.

8 minutes ago, Charles wrote

You coming to build, Paolo? Others? Come on, Niners. Represent!
C

BuildWindows.com

Full Conference Pass

Discount through August 1

$1,595

Price after August 1

$2,095

 

Expo Hall Only Pass

$100

Bugger off.

17 minutes ago, Charles wrote

You coming to build, Paolo? Others? Come on, Niners. Represent!
C

Nah, I prefer to watch streaming without me sitting on the ground. (last time all sits were taken). Also I find the event boring when my free pass was only for Azure conference, which was boring as I already knew all of it online. You guys go and share for me

Hell, I am not even too excited about E3 anymore as I can get it online already. Those one year early demos I can wait. I am getting too old, those conventions tires me.

2 hours ago, W3bbo wrote

*snip*

I don't personally use WPF, for many reasons I've enumerated on this forum in the past, but today I discovered another reason: yet more inconsistency with the host platform. Apparently WPF Aero borders do not match the system defaults unless you hack it. Nice one, Microsoft.

WPF doesn't draw the window frame, W3bbo, only the window contents.

Anyway, 'legacy' implies its deprecated.

You coming to build, Paolo? Others? Come on, Niners. Represent!
C

If you want to write a long winded letter to accounts payable at my company and ask them to foot the bill, I will totally go. I don't even like Microsoft, but I'll drink your beer all the same.

They made me take f'ing PTO for the Google I/O days for the first time in 3 years, so I would love to see you try.

You wanna convince my company to pay? I'll arrange it so you can come down and talk to some of the execs during lunch. They're not really fans of your company, but it would be fun none the less. Oh, and I wanna video tape it. "Charles vs. corporate cutters"

I live right near Anaheim ftw.

I'm sure we'll get one more round of WPF & Silverlight updates but they'll be meager and have little to do with the grand new scheme in Windows 8.

I'm looking forward to dredging up these threads in a few months just to laugh at those who thought Microsoft was going to do the right thing for us developers.

Weirdly the new embedded database API in Windows Phone Mango is a version of LINQ to SQL, not EF or straight SQL/ADO.NET or something new. It even adds a few new features not in the desktop version. So I guess not everyone at Microsoft thinks L2S is dead ...

2 minutes ago, contextfree` wrote

 

Weirdly the new embedded database API in Windows Phone Mango is a version of LINQ to SQL, not EF or straight SQL/ADO.NET or something new. It even adds a few new features not in the desktop version. So I guess not everyone at Microsoft thinks L2S is dead ...

LOL! I would love to shake the hands of the folks that made that decision. That said you get my point. They won't be going back to finish what they started on L2S. My Winforms friends who still use datasets laugh at me when I try and use the L2S designer in some of my older projects. The dataset designer was much more feature complete than L2S ever was.

5 hours ago, Charles wrote

You coming to build, Paolo? Others? Come on, Niners. Represent!
C

Unfortunately, on the 14th I fly to Paris... I *may* get there for the first day, but I don't really want to spend pretty much two days in an airplane

3 hours ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

@Charles:

*snip*

If you want to write a long winded letter to accounts payable at my company and ask them to foot the bill, I will totally go. I don't even like Microsoft, but I'll drink your beer all the same.

You have to *ask*?!

They made me take f'ing PTO for the Google I/O days for the first time in 3 years, so I would love to see you try.

You had to use your PTO?! LOL

Maybe you should find a better job, where you don't have to beg and employees are not treated like swappable resources...

2 hours ago, PaoloM wrote

You have to *ask*?!

...

Maybe you should find a better job, where you don't have to beg and employees are not treated like swappable resources...

where the heck do you work anyway? are they hiring?

in the real world, companies dont send people on 2000 dollar conferences (a 3 day confereance no less, and excluding flight and accomodtions) willy nilly.. epecially when they are given no info about the details of the conference. (no, "its about windows" is not enough, thats like saying E3 is about digital things)

My chief worry isn't over HTML or Javascript, more worried about C++ rearing its head again and having to remember to do a delete after a new

I'd love to go to BUILD, because learning and doing new software is what I'm in this game for. Sadly, my budget won't stretch and my employers don't do conferences anymore.

BUILD sounds interesting, hopefully the Channel 9 live support will be as excellent as ever!

EDIT.  Wow, sorry, that was way off topic.

12 hours ago, brian.​shapiro wrote

*snip*

Anyway, 'legacy' implies its deprecated.

I don't agree, that's just how the ADHD crowd interprets it.  And just because they seem to be the loudest voices right now doesn't make them right.

14 hours ago, Charles wrote

You coming to build, Paolo? Others? Come on, Niners. Represent!
C

School calls. Oh and the expense. If you can take care of both, then I would gladly come to Build.

Herbie

C

32 minutes ago, Dr Herbie wrote

@ScanIAm:  Perhaps C9 needs another competition/vote to pay for a 9er to go.

Herbie

Are you hoping that lightning will strike twice

I've only really been to one big tech conference and while it was interesting to attend, I can safely say that it was only a good use of my employer's money because they were looking for new technology to solve a problem.

Google I/O 2009 was $325 (got a free HTC magic pre-release ROI higher than ticket price),

Google I/O 2010 was $350, (got a free HTC EVO pre-release, and a Moto Droid - ROI higher than ticket price),

Google I/O 2011 was $450.(got a free Samsung 10.1" Galaxy Tab pre-release, and a ChromeOS laptop RTM - ROI higher than ticket price),

Microsoft wants $1600-$2000 a ticket with no obvious return on investment?

Why is Microsoft sending Bizspark participants $200 off coupons to WPC and no discount for BUILD?

WPC is only $750 - the $200 for participants

Enter code: WPXXPXX during registration

Apparently 12k people already signed up. And no, I am not going (why would I)

Why the huge discount for WPC and no discount to BUILD?

The BUILD ticket price is no way competitive with Google what so ever in any way.

 It's not even competitive with the $595 WPC price, so wtf?

Does the Microsoft brand name merit the extra $1000+ by itself? Not for me. There's no way to tell your employer that there's an ROI on this conference.

Microsoft wants $1600-$2000 a ticket with no obvious return on investment?

1. If you only to conferences for the swag, you are truly sad.
2. MS charge that much for conferences because people will pay it. If they can sell every ticket at $300 or at $1600, why wouldn't they sell them at that price? It's called capitalism. If MS started having trouble getting people to attend these events, the price would come down. Obviously, this hasn't happened yet.

Simply put, they charge that much because they can. They don't care that you won't be going, someone else who is willing to pay that much will.

The type of conference also dictates the type of networking opportunities will be available. If the bulk of the attendees are hobbiest script kiddies writing free mobile apps from their parent's basement, then you might not deem the networking opportunities very valuable if you work for an enterprise.

why wouldn't they sell them at that price?

http://www.google.com/about/corporate/company/tenthings.html

6. You can make money without doing evil.

http://www.google.com/about/corporate/company/ux.html

The larger Google becomes, the more essential it is to live up to our "Don't be evil" motto.

14 minutes ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

@Sven Groot:

*snip*

http://www.google.com/about/corporate/company/tenthings.html

*snip*

http://www.google.com/about/corporate/company/ux.html

*snip*

Evil is serving those disgusting hotdogs for lunch.

There were sandwiches and salad on the other side. You chose to eat the hot dogs, and now you blame Google.

5 minutes ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

@cbae:

There were sandwiches and salad on the other side. You chose to eat the hot dogs, and now you blame Google.

No, I chose not to eat the hotdogs. I blame Google for putting out cheapo, disgusting food as even an option.

@cbae:

You chose to go into the hot dog line as opposed to the other salad line and get hot dogs.

The bottom line is that it's your fault. There are plenty of very good restaurants in Union Square you could have gone to. You were also in walking distance from China Town.

I will admit that the food at the Googleplex is far better, but its what it is.

1 hour ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote...a bunch of stupid and then he followed it up with:

Does the Microsoft brand name merit the extra $1000+ by itself?

Apparently.  You'll learn how that works once you enter the business world.

Not for me. There's no way to tell your employer that there's an ROI on this conference.

When this is your employer, I can totally understand:

7 minutes ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

 

@cbae:

You chose to go into the hot dog line as opposed to the other salad line and get hot dogs.

The bottom line is that it's your fault. There are plenty of very good restaurants in Union Square you could have gone to. You were also in walking distance from China Town.

I will admit that the food at the Googleplex is far better, but its what it is.

You implied that Microsoft is evil for wanting to maximize profits from the conference by charging $2000. I implied Google is evil for wanting to maximize profits from the conference by serving cheap, disgusting food.

What I chose to eat or not eat is irrelevant.

10 minutes ago, Bass wrote

What does Microsoft serve in their conferences?

To be fair, the Microsoft events I've been to had all had top-nosh.

The first "Developer Developer Developer" day event I attended in 2005 (which IIRC was actually the first ever) had a lovely catered Italian (as in, proper pasta dishes, not a pizza in sight). However the second DDD downgraded the food to prepackaged sandwiches and a goodie-bag. It was the same as the third DDD I went to. I haven't been since 2007.

The Visual Studio 2005 launch event (a much larger affair with at least a few thousand attendees) had food similar to the first DDD.

At the Visual Studio 2008 launch event I didn't really get a chance to sample the food much, I mostly had the canapés.

I haven't been to any "large" conferences like PDC, WinHEC, TechEd or MIX so I can't really speak.

You can eat where ever you want. Google doesn't make you eat there. Microsoft either.

Google does have massive open bars and free alcohol at I/O on the 3rd floor the night of the first day of the conference. I also got some really good beer at the Googleplex, though no bars. They just haul the cases in.

The point is the conference has to give you enough gear to make up for the ticket price, and I don't see that happening with BUILD. Then you can either hock the gear off on ebay for insane cash(pre-release gear is worth a fortune) or you can keep it. I kept it(this year).

Without that incentive, I'm afraid there's just no point. What are you going to do with an alpha build of Windows 8? They digitally water mark it so if you sell it or share it they trace it back to you I hear. I guess you could go through the whole thing with a hex editor trying to strip that, but WTF. Google would never do that and they would never give you such a sh1tty conference gift.

5 minutes ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

To me that doesn't matter. Last year the breakfast at I/O was gone so I went down and had breakfast on Mission St. I had come in late one day and bumped into Robert Scoble on the escalator. He had lost his mission street parking pass on the ground and I gave it back to him as he was riding up to the 3rd floor.

My good sir, you made my eyebrow hit the ceiling.

2 minutes ago, cbae wrote

Didn't Microsoft give away convertible tablets at PDC few years ago and WP7 devices at MIX in 2010?

C

-Josh

C

-Josh

5 minutes ago, contextfree` wrote

@PaoloM: Yeah, meeting people would be the only reason to go, since the sessions and probably any released software will be available online and it makes no sense to pay $2000 for a $500 tablet (or whatever).

Even if the conference were free and you got a $500 tablet that you can sell on eBay for $1000, it might not offset the loss of productive time and/or billable hours. It should always be about meeting people.

The only people going for swag are probably either unemployed or hobbiests who don't have a boss/company caring about lost productive time.

Most of the people I meet at conferences are people I have known in the past through GTUG or some other community.

I doubt you can just meet people you've never known and get business from them without knowing them from elsewhere. It doesn't sound right. Besides, you shouldn't talk during the sessions. It really pisses people like me off.

5 minutes ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

Just because you meet people at a conference doesn't mean they're going to give you business. I usually exchange a couple business cards, but that hardly means anything.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is where you separate the professionals from the amateurs. All the cards I get have either a lead or a business or a new friend attached to them.

I doubt you can just meet people you've never known and get business from them without knowing them from elsewhere. It doesn't sound right.

Really? I do it all the time. Actually, that's THE ENTIRE POINT of going to industry conferences.

Besides, you shouldn't talk during the sessions. It really pisses people like me off.

You go to the sessions?! LOL

Sure, go to something that you can get online the day after and, in the meanwhile, skip the cocktails, the dinners, the parties where you actually make contacts and rack up business.

8 minutes ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

Just because you meet people at a conference doesn't mean they're going to give you business. I usually exchange a couple business cards, but that hardly means anything.

If you get out of your Cheetos-stained T-shirt every once in awhile, you might find that meeting people face-to-face can make a positive impression.

Getting the business card is simply the entree for future communication. You still have to do the hard work after to get that business.

But if you never first got that business card, you will:

1. never have known that the opportunity was there in the first place

2. be nothing more than a cold caller if you, by chance, encountered the same person through some other means

You go to the sessions?! LOL

Why would I spend almost 2k for to meet MS technology consultants?

They have meet & greets all the f'ing time for free. They just had one in Irvine at the Hyatt.

WPC is only $795, and it has people who aren't developers, but rather business people.

http://digitalwpc.com/Registration

MSP just sent out a $200 discount code which I have so it's $595 (still far too much to meet MS tech consultants).

Why would you go to a developer conference, miss the sessions and not care that you got screwed on big ticket schwag?

I'm not interested in B2B consulting so I could care less about selling a new logging library to x,y,z Microsoft Partner for 80 times what it's worth if they were to do a Google search for the same exact thing.

You know what I mean?

Some of you may have done this at developer conferences, but it's hardly the norm. It's certainly not why I would go to a developer conference. Doing that at a dev conference spells desperation. I can totally see somebody trying to take advantage of a person doing that(unless they paid for a kiosk and were a show off company).

Mostly I go for the technical context of the sessions. I wouldn't ever pay to go to a conference though. That's what employers are for.

I wouldn't ever pay to go to a conference though. That's what employers are for.

++

not to mention free laptops, training, college classes, fuel reimbursement, 401k matching, medical, dental, vision, ect....

WTF is up with these people?

BTW, I am talking about the American people. I know life is hard in mother Russia, and China and I'm not referring to you or trying to make you aware of benefits you don't readily have.

11 minutes ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

@Bass:

*snip*

++

not to mention free laptops, training, college classes, fuel reimbursement, 401k matching, medical, dental, vision, ect....

WTF is up with these people?

BTW, I am talking about the American people. I know life is hard in mother Russia, and China and I'm not referring to you or trying to make you aware of benefits you don't readily have.

Some people sign the front of the check, not the back.

2 hours ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

@PaoloM:

*snip*

Why would I spend almost 2k for to meet MS technology consultants?

They have meet & greets all the f'ing time for free. They just had one in Irvine at the Hyatt.

The only MSFT people I met at MIX11 were old friends with which I lost a tequila shot contest.

WPC is only $795, and it has people who aren't developers, but rather business people.

http://digitalwpc.com/Registration

MSP just sent out a $200 discount code which I have so it's $595 (still far too much to meet MS tech consultants).

If that's your thing (meeting consultants) suit yourself. I go for the rest.

Why would you go to a developer conference, miss the sessions and not care that you got screwed on big ticket schwag?

What exactly do you mean by "big ticket swag"? A Chromebook? Srsly?

I'm not interested in B2B consulting so I could care less about selling a new logging library to x,y,z Microsoft Partner for 80 times what it's worth if they were to do a Google search for the same exact thing.

You know what I mean?

Maybe I know, but I don't understand why you would go *in person* to an *expensive* conference and then not take advantage of the awesome networking opportunities.

Mah...

Some of you may have done this at developer conferences, but it's hardly the norm.

For me, it is.

 It's certainly not why I would go to a developer conference. Doing that at a dev conference spells desperation. I can totally see somebody trying to take advantage of a person doing that(unless they paid for a kiosk and were a show off company).

Sure. Keep repeating that to yourself, maybe you'll even believe it, one day 

If that's your thing (meeting consultants) suit yourself. I go for the rest.

Unless you make developer tools, what the hell are you going to sell to other developers?

And if you did make developer tools why would those people use yours over Microsoft's after they just paid 2k to go to the MS WDC conference?

If you're MS tech centric(I'm not), of course you want to go to WPC and or meet and greets instead because consultants simply cobble together solutions. They would be most likely to use either your outsourced programming or your ISV solution as part of some cobbled together solution that requires Microsoft licensing.

A developer will listen to whatever you're offering and instantly think "hey, I can do that in my own team without paying you anything at all" if they think your offering has any value.

A consultant is constantly trying to budget proposals and will mentally note where they may need your services if they have any interest in them.

Developers are not good people to sell solutions to. A developer conference is usually not a good place to network outside of hiring. Google I/O is a bit different since it's next to Silicon Valley. I'd say 10-20% of the people who go to I/O are in fact not developers and have never written a single line of code.

They are head hunters(the proverbial scum of the earth), real estate agents and consultants "looking for an angle". Those are the most annoying people on earth and you should do anything you can to make their experience so bad they give up the next year around.

10 hours ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

Some people sign the front of the check, not the back.

I LOL'd.

http://www.winrumors.com/silverlight-isnt-dead-its-the-heart-of-windows-phone-windows-8-and-xbox/

11 hours ago, JoshRoss wrote

You know how IE6 had that funeral? You could have a funeral every month, or week, leading up to the release of Windows 8. God, I would love a funeral for the Registry, the c:\windows\system directory, INI files, the ODBC icon, notepad, and others. What would you like to see a funeral for?

-Josh

The Registry is a good idea, it's just been abused.

In my vision, every application would be sandboxed, and the registry APIs would write to a "mini-registry" file located in the application's installation directory. INI files are great: they're a nice, human-readable way of defining a simple configuration because for many things XML configuration is overkill and waaaay too complicated. Microsoft should re-introduce INI files as a first-class alternative to *.config files. If I have to type "ConfigurationSection" again I'm going to bludgeon the man responsible for that to death with my keyboard.

ODBC and DSN can be killed off, I don't know who thought it was a good idea in the first place. ODBC/DSN can continue to exist on a per-application basis rather than being a global OS feature.

8 hours ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

Unless you make developer tools, what the hell are you going to sell to other developers?

For one... yourself... indirectly that is. Didn't you know it's rather nice to know people in other companies and/or industries who you might be able to leverage if one day you are job hunting?

Developers are not good people to sell solutions to. A developer conference is usually not a good place to network outside of hiring.

Really? So it's just developers there? HA! PDC doesn't just attract rank and file developers, but the actually decision makers at companies as well. Heck, last PDC I went to, I talked with quite a few development managers, presidents and even a few CEOs. Hell, one of those CEOs I interviewed with a few years back, turned him down, and yet still we were able to have a good talk. More so several of those conversations lead to higher level talks between either they and my bosses, or their bosses and my bosses... and a couple of they, actual business agreements.

Google I/O is a bit different since it's next to Silicon Valley. I'd say 10-20% of the people who go to I/O are in fact not developers and have never written a single line of code.

So you are saying that a sizeable chunk of the the Google I/O attenance base is... lazy? And only goes because it's right next to Silicon Valley? Good to know!

A consultant is constantly trying to budget proposals and will mentally note where they may need your services if they have any interest in them.

Again, it's not about meeting consultants/selling consulting work (though if that is the kind business you are in, it's a good place to do so).

Oh my head hurts.

So you are saying that a sizeable chunk of the the Google I/O attenance base is... lazy? And only goes because it's right next to Silicon Valley? Good to know!

Not lazy, just people in other industries looking to sell things to people who make six figures.

They show up to GTUG too, and code-a-thons in Silicon Valley and LA.

Real Estate agents, head hunters, financial services, VC minions, ect.....

I would say more talentless than lazy, and they try to sell you any big ticket item they can: Time share, home, land, a loan, a new job, ect....

Stuff that will completely change the course of somebody's life for their own benefit. I pay no attention to them when they try to talk to me, but they should still be universally banned. It's spam. Human spam.

People that whip out their card within 2 minutes of talking to you are not good people to talk to.

13 hours ago, JoshRoss wrote

You know how IE6 had that funeral? You could have a funeral every month, or week, leading up to the release of Windows 8. God, I would love a funeral for the Registry, the c:\windows\system directory, INI files, the ODBC icon, notepad, and others. What would you like to see a funeral for?

-Josh

The Registry is actually a really important part of the NT kernel, because it contains things like the list of drivers to load and system configuration options. The Registry is certainly abused by application developers but it's needed by the kernel - the same is true of the C:\Windows\System directory (on x86 it's needed for NTVDM and changing your screen resolution for instance).

INI Files are a hack and were effectively replaced by the registry (if you can't have the registry or INI files, how are you going to store per-app/per-user configs?)

And Notepad, FYI, is one of my most used apps, after only calc, Visual Studio and IE.

3 hours ago, ScanIAm wrote

*snip*

I LOL'd.

LOL'd too. I was lucky, I went for free as one day student pass.

1 hour ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

INI Files are a hack and were effectively replaced by the registry (if you can't have the registry or INI files, how are you going to store per-app/per-user configs?)

At least in .Net, there are methods to locate a file store for these.  Whatever algorithm is used to pick the share could/should be opened up to non-.Net apps.  I'd love to see the registry used for OS and/or machine wide settings and force regular applications to keep their settings elsewhere.

And Notepad, FYI, is one of my most used apps, after only calc, Visual Studio and IE.

I've dropped Notepad for Notepad++ and Sticky Notes.  Notepad had too many limitations

14 hours ago, JoshRoss wrote

You know how IE6 had that funeral? You could have a funeral every month, or week, leading up to the release of Windows 8. God, I would love a funeral for the Registry, the c:\windows\system directory, INI files, the ODBC icon, notepad, and others. What would you like to see a funeral for?

-Josh

I would love a funeral for the Registry as well. I hated those evil Google Desktop which is not removeable. F*******. Same with MSN browser, F********. And BestBuy F*******.

I wanted some kind of dynamic registry. Basically I remove the root folder of the application, like C:\app1 folder, and then, registry are automatically removed because registry values are stored inside C:\app1 folder. Since it is no longer there, the dynamic system will clean itself up.

And registry is a database of

[Target, Date, AppKey, Value] where when I remove an app, it only does DEL ROW from regDB where AppKey = app. So, I still have other registry values associated with the same Target from other apps.

Why? Because virus can never overwrite registry this way. It makes the new bad values the most current one, but, never replace the old values. And old value is automatically used when more recent values are removed.

===========

Long live Notepad, I love Notepad, it never fails me, except I hope it can deal with GB files.

I agree with this approach, and I always though such a "virtual" registry is a good idea where it is a combination of multiple per-application, locally stored branches. Once you remove an application, the whole branch is automatically removed as well.

But I see two problems with this approach:

1. There are cases where you do want an application to make global changes to the registry. Not sure how to work around that problem. Maybe if the system detects that an application wants to modify the registry outside of it's own area, it should pop a dialog asking whether the changes should be applied globally or not. 
2. There are legit cases where one application wants to check registry entries from another application. For instance I worked on a plugin for our main application, and when installing the plugin, it checks for the existence of the main application and its install location via the main application's registry entries.

But I thought the registry was already "virtualized" to some degree. Not sure how much though (32-bit vs 64-bit registry, etc). 

1 hour ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

@dahat:

*snip*

Not lazy, just people in other industries looking to sell things to people who make six figures.

They show up to GTUG too, and code-a-thons in Silicon Valley and LA.

Real Estate agents, head hunters, financial services, VC minions, ect.....

I would say more talentless than lazy, and they try to sell you any big ticket item they can: Time share, home, land, a loan, a new job, ect....

Stuff that will completely change the course of somebody's life for their own benefit. I pay no attention to them when they try to talk to me, but they should still be universally banned. It's spam. Human spam.

People that whip out their card within 2 minutes of talking to you are not good people to talk to.

That's fantastic. Thanks for letting me know never to attend Google I/O, apparently it's useless and/or dangerous.

2 hours ago, SheldonS wrote

Maybe this will help some people with the whole Silverlight thing.

http://www.winrumors.com/silverlight-isnt-dead-its-the-heart-of-windows-phone-windows-8-and-xbox/

That's a good read. I always assumed Microsoft would use Silverlight as the foundation for their 3 screens and a cloud strategy. Last year, I posted a question on Scott Gu's blog about why Microsoft wasn't coming out and wholeheartedly embracing Silverlight as the linchpin to this strategy. (I didn't get a response.)

I really think this HTML5+CSS+JS support is only to bring a larger developer base into the Microsoft ecosystem. If you think about it, it really is a good way to get people interested in supporting the platform, at minimum, since it would be easy to do so.

It's my understanding that Microsoft intends to build first class tooling to do HTML development, which can apply to any platform. Getting developers to use these tools is an important part of Microsoft's revenue model. But these developer tools will go largely unnoticed if the developers aren't first interested in the Microsoft ecosystem. Currently, the assumption is that you only use Microsoft tooling if you want to strictly support Microsoft's platform.

The problem is that people ignore Microsoft's platform altogether because their EXISTING tooling can't target Microsoft's platform. So I think Microsoft is embracing HTML5+CSS+JS simply as a way to get Microsoft, as a platform provider, on the radar screen at all for those who largely ignore Microsoft's platform.

Then and only then will people even care about what Microsoft has to offer in tooling. Sure, you should still be able to migrate an existing web-based application for Windows 8 by editing HTML files and writing JavaScript code using VI editor on Linux if you still want to, but you'll probably be more likely to notice the tooling that Microsoft offers too. Since that tooling, by being a first-class tool for HTML5+CSS+JS, can target more than Microsoft's platforms, you might be more inclined to actually *gasp* pay to have it. And if you're willing to go that far, you might be willing to start looking at doing SilverLight and/or WPF development. Hell, why not? You already paid for the tools.

Another line of thinking is that, even if you are strictly a Linux or OSX user, allowing you to keep using those OSes as your primary development environment while easily targeting the Windows platform can still pay off in terms of paid Windows licenses. How? Because you might be inclined to "invest" in a Windows license for testing purposes. There are a lot of iOS developers investing in Android devices because they want to migrate their apps to Android and be able to test it without having to wait 3 days for the Android emulator to start up.

This embracing HTML5+CSS+JS strategy is a really smart one, if you think on these terms. The problem is that some .NET developers seem so insecure about the future of Microsoft, that they go apesh** at the slightest implication of impending change in Microsoft's strategy. Then in the same breath they criticize Microsoft for "having done nothing for a decade". Make up your mind. Sheesh!

1 hour ago, magicalclick wrote

*snip*

Long live Notepad, I love Notepad, it never fails me, except I hope it can deal with GB files.

Your love for notepad shows that your world revolves around Windows (not that surprising as this forum is on an MS site). I find it hard to believe that in this internet age you never came across a UNIX file. You know, those that open as one long line in Notepad. Those with the funny convention of having just a linefeed at the end of lines (how odd and nonstandard ).

What I find particularly funny about some post by windowists, such as in the famous thread about Silverlight and windows 8, is that they use the word Notepad when ever they mean an editor. Such as: oh well I guess i can open notepad and start working on HTML5.

24 minutes ago, fanbaby wrote

*snip*

Your love for notepad shows that your world revolves around Windows (not that surprising as this forum is on an MS site). I find it hard to believe that in this internet age you never came across a UNIX file.

And why would he have to? UNIX usage is way below the standard margin of error... what's now? 1%? 1.2%?

 You know, those that open as one long line in Notepad. Those with the funny convention of having just a linefeed at the end of lines (how odd and nonstandard ).

Nonstandard indeed, as a LF just move the cursor down a line, while a CR moves it down and go back to the beginning of the line. Why UNIX ever decided that it was a good idea is one of the great misteries of the universe. VMS (and the VT100) were right and respected the distinction between LF and CR.

Then term came out and conveniently "forgot" that there was a reason for the two controls. Shoddy programming that have never been fixed.

What I find particularly funny about some post by windowists, such as in the famous thread about Silverlight and windows 8, is that they use the word Notepad when ever they mean an editor. Such as: oh well I guess i can open notepad and start working on HTML5.

Why, you can't open notepad and start working on HTML? Do you need anything more, really?

The whole article is lame, the only source are "company insiders", I could just write blog saying that "company insiders" told me that Microsoft is ditching Windows and forking Fedora.

46 seconds ago, jmzl666 wrote

@SheldonS:

The whole article is lame, the only source are "company insiders", I could just write blog saying that "company insiders" told me that Microsoft is ditching Windows and forking Fedora.

Yeah, and notice the reactions? (not only here, but all around the web)

Sad that people are less threatened by anonymous sources...

3 minutes ago, PaoloM wrote

*snip*

Then term came out and conveniently "forgot" that there was a reason for the two controls. Shoddy programming that have never been fixed.

I'll leave it to you as an exercise, why he (either Thompson or Ritchie or whoever) chose to use LF as the new line char and not the CR and why nothing of value was lost. 

No offense, but it was a good read, made my day. Care to enlighten us to more shoddy programming by these incompetent shoddy programming guys? 

17 minutes ago, PaoloM wrote

*snip*

And why would he have to? UNIX usage is way below the standard margin of error... what's now? 1%? 1.2%?

Assuming you were sincere in your response, Unix file conventions are used on Mac OS X too (and don't forget how OS9 used only \r for line-feed, instead of Unix's \n).

Notepad's lack of support for solitary \n newlines is annoying, but that's what I keep WordPad around for.

4 hours ago, SheldonS wrote

Maybe this will help some people with the whole Silverlight thing.

http://www.winrumors.com/silverlight-isnt-dead-its-the-heart-of-windows-phone-windows-8-and-xbox/

Yes a good read but it doesn't actually provide any new proof of SL's role in Windows 8 either way. It makes much more sense than "All new [non-legacy] applications will be HTML5/JS from now on".

But the big problem is the confusing message that MS sent last week. Here's a direct quote from Steven Sinofsky:

Windows 8 essentially supports two kinds of applications. One is the classic Windows application, which runs in a desktop very similar to the Windows 7 desktop

So anything using this model will now be considered classic? As in legacy/deprecated/not recommended for new projects?

The other type of application, which has to be written in HTML5 and Javascript, looks more like a mobile application, filling the full screen...

Even if the WinRumors link is correct and SL is an important part of Windows 8, I have to ask how the above message from Steven Sinofsky is not confusing. I mean, how much more effort would it have been to re-word his comment to something like this:

The other type of application, which can be written in HTML5 and Javascript, looks more like a mobile application, filling the full screen...

Seriously, that would have saved a lot of angst and confusion, and while people like PaoloM can make all the comments about how stupid people are for even thinking for one second that .Net could be deprecated, the message is still confusing and isn't open to much interpretation. According to his comments, it's either classic or HTML5/JS.

10 minutes ago, fanbaby wrote

*snip*

I'll leave it to you as an exercise, why he (either Thompson or Ritchie or whoever) chose to use LF as the new line char and not the CR and why nothing of value was lost. 

I am not that good, please enlighten me. Oh, and don't forget to reference teletypes and telex terminals, where - supposedly - all these conventions come from.

6 minutes ago, PaoloM wrote

*snip*

I am not that good, please enlighten me. Oh, and don't forget to reference teletypes and telex terminals, where - supposedly - all these conventions come from.

I know nothing about teletypes and telex, sorry. But i suspect it has nothing to do with this decision. The way you store files on your system, especially text files which were made inporatnt in Unix (until MS invented the registery ), doesn't preclude other convention when you talk to the outside world. A terminal driver for example can easily convert LF to CRLF combo. It's even configurable out of the box.

Edited: add the registery reference

30 seconds ago, BitFlipper wrote

But the big problem is the confusing message that MS sent last week. Here's a direct quote from Steven Sinofsky:

The other type of application, which has to be written in HTML5 and Javascript, looks more like a mobile application, filling the full screen...

Not to be picky or anything, but where did you get that direct quote? I'm trying to get to the root of the problem here...

6 minutes ago, fanbaby wrote

*snip*

I know nothing about teletypes and telex, sorry. But i suspect it has nothing to do with this decision. The way you store files on your system, especially text files which were made inporatnt in Unix (until MS invented the registery ), doesn't preclude other convention when you talk to the outside world. A terminal driver for example can easily convert LF to CRLF combo. It's even configurable out of the box.

Edited: add the registery reference

So you don't know why CR/LF exists or why the UNIX implementation is a deviation from ANSI standards.

Alright, good to know.

1 hour ago, fanbaby wrote

*snip*

I'll leave it to you as an exercise, why he (either Thompson or Ritchie or whoever) chose to use LF as the new line char and not the CR and why nothing of value was lost. 

No offense, but it was a good read, made my day. Care to enlighten us to more shoddy programming by these incompetent shoddy programming guys? 

Why would I need an exercise in order to determine that it was and still is a stupid idea.  There isn't a 'newline' character in ASCII.  It isn't a /n because that's a line-feed and it isn't a /r because that's a carriage return.  I'll leave it to YOU as an exercise to find the newline character in ASCII or any other character set.

Nice troll attempt, tho.

50 minutes ago, PaoloM wrote

*snip*

Not to be picky or anything, but where did you get that direct quote? I'm trying to get to the root of the problem here...

I was under the impression that it was a quote from Steven Sinofsky during his interview with Walt Mossberg on All Things Digital, but after tracking it down, it apears to have originated from Ina Fried, who had an early preview of Windows 8 (it is about a 3rd down the linked page). That exact same quote is used all over the place though, which might have contributed to the confusion (including mine). Do a search for "The other type of application, which has to be".

6 minutes ago, BitFlipper wrote

*snip*

I was under the impression that it was a quote from Steven Sinofsky during his interview with Walt Mossberg on All Things Digital, but after tracking it down, it apears to have originated from Ina Fried, who had an early preview of Windows 8 (it is about a 3rd down the linked page). That exact same quote is used all over the place though, which might have contributed to the confusion (including mine). Do a search for "The other type of application, which has to be".

I know, that's what I did!

I really really really hope that this whole tempest has not been caused by a wrong citation...

3 minutes ago, ScanIAm wrote

*snip*

Why would I need an exercise in order to determine that it was and still is a stupid idea.  There isn't a 'newline' character in ASCII.  It isn't a /n because that's a line-feed and it isn't a /r because that's a carriage return.  I'll leave it to YOU as an exercise to find the newline character in ASCII or any other character set.

Nice troll attempt, tho.

Correct. Newline "/n" only moves the insertion point down a line while leaving it at the same column index. Carriage return "/r" moves the insertion point to the start of the same line without moving it down. You need both a newline and a carriage return to get the insertion point to the beginning of a new line. Except if you throw the rules out of the window and treat either /n or /r as if it is /r/n. So technically Windows got it correct and it is wrong in Linux and OS X.

16 minutes ago, BitFlipper wrote

*snip*

Newline "/n" only moves the insertion point down a line while leaving it at the same column index. 

Yeah, like this is very useful... And that's the hint the three of you need. Please go search for the rest of the story.

20 minutes ago, PaoloM wrote

*snip*

I know, that's what I did!

I really really really hope that this whole tempest has not been caused by a wrong citation...

The tempest has been caused by the lack of any clarification.  JLG did say that "this application is written with our new development platform, which is based on html5 and javascript."

She doesn't say it's the ONLY way.  But it is a provocative enough statement that a little clarity on it wouldn't hurt.  And oddly MS just went completely dark. 

Even if MS just said, "HTML and JS won't be the only way... wait until September and you can see the whole story".  That would calm 99% of the people.

5 minutes ago, KDawg wrote

*snip*

The tempest has been caused by the lack of any clarification.  JLG did say that "this application is written with our new development platform, which is based on html5 and javascript."

She doesn't say it's the ONLY way.  But it is a provocative enough statement that a little clarity on it wouldn't hurt.  And oddly MS just went completely dark. 

Even if MS just said, "HTML and JS won't be the only way... wait until September and you can see the whole story".  That would calm 99% of the people.

AMEN !

or if they had said "in addition to the other options we now have support for HTML5and JS on the desktop to build apps" or some words to that effect, a very simple small change in one line and then it sounds so very different...

3 minutes ago, fanbaby wrote

*snip*

Yeah, like this is very useful... And that's the hint the three of you need. Please go search for the rest of the story.

I'm sure this was a useful feature with old printers etc, where you could send a CR and type over the same line to create combined characters that you otherwise could not.

Of course we don't need such functionality any more but it doesn't mean it is ok to ignore the original specification just to save a byte, well, because "it isn't very useful". If it was MS that implemented the spec incorrectly then of course we would have heard how this is typical MS behavior. However it is Linux and OSX that implemented it wrong but I'm sure somehow it is MS that is doing something wrong.

17 minutes ago, fanbaby wrote

*snip*

Yeah, like this is very useful... And that's the hint the three of you need. Please go search for the rest of the story.

Look.  You seem to feel that you've got some kind of inside scoop on why this was a good idea.  I'm not going to go on a googlebingquest just to prove you are ignorant of the facts.  If you've got something to say, then say it. 

Otherwise, as usual, you are wrong.

25 seconds ago, BitFlipper wrote

*snip*

...Of course we don't need such functionality any more but it doesn't mean it is ok to ignore the original specification just to save a byte, well, because "it isn't very useful". If it was MS that implemented the spec incorrectly then of course we would have heard how this is typical MS behavior. However it is Linux and OSX that implemented it wrong but I'm sure somehow it is MS that is doing something wrong....

I heard that the next version of Unix is going to be more standard compliant, and \n is going to be replaced by \r\n. In order to be backward compatible, when you open a file, you'll need to specify whether it's text file or a binary file. If it's a text file, the library is going to replace every \n with \r\n, as was intended by the ASCII standard.

[[oh, how i wish people here would get this ]]

23 minutes ago, fanbaby wrote

*snip*

Yeah, like this is very useful... And that's the hint the three of you need. Please go search for the rest of the story.

Couldn't your time be better served by working on your open source project today instead of getting into a pi$$ing contest about a silly convention? I'm sure your freetard buddies are waiting for you to check in your awesome code devoid of /r into Github.

9 minutes ago, fanbaby wrote

cbae, just out of curiosity, what's your view on Wikipedia?

It's a useful tool for linking articles when you get into flame wars on messageboards. It's probably not useful for much more than that.

2 hours ago, aL_ wrote

this thread is de-railing fast..

Might as well take advantage of the situation. I was waiting for an excuse to post this.

aaw..

to bring things back things slightly back on track,

looks like some guy created an immersive win8 app using nothing but c, not html/js anywhere. can people calm down now?

24 minutes ago, aL_ wrote

@Bass:

aaw..

to bring things back things slightly back on track,

looks like some guy created an immersive win8 app using nothing but c, not html/js anywhere. can people calm down now?

 

CreateImmersiveWindow function. Why does a glorified full-screen function need its own top-level Win32 function for something you should be able to do simply by exposing some more control over the window manager?

12 minutes ago, W3bbo wrote

*snip*

CreateImmersiveWindow function. Why does a glorified full-screen function need its own top-level Win32 function for something you should be able to do simply by exposing some more control over the window manager?

Is that a rhetorical question?

Uh, stop trying to rerail (is that even a word?) the conversation. We were discussing cats. And the mathematical fact that Linux is a much better operating system then Windows.

-Josh

I think you can buy the chocolate ice cream with built-in peanut better these days. That is right. Mind blown.

5 minutes ago, Bass wrote

@aL_

Uh, stop trying to rerail (is that even a word?) the conversation. We were discussing cats. And the mathematical fact that Linux is a much better operating system then Windows.

Is that the opinion of most cats?

It's the opinion of anyone with a brain! </troll>

Say, once we're all brains in vats, do you suppose there'll be an opportunity for developers to write apps for the VatOS App Store (immersive apps, of course) with access to our motor-sensory I/O? What should the primary application framework be?

1 hour ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

Is that a rhetorical question?

No. I genuinely want to know to what extent the operating system has been modified to implement these changes. The evidence suggests there has been some serious changes to the window manager, so I'm interested to see how this changes things.

There's a difference between things like WPF (which is just another userland framework that runs essentially on top of the same system features as a program written in C++ for Windows 98) and this new 'immersive' UI.

5 hours ago, fanbaby wrote

*snip*

I heard that the next version of Unix is going to be more standard compliant, and \n is going to be replaced by \r\n. In order to be backward compatible, when you open a file, you'll need to specify whether it's text file or a binary file. If it's a text file, the library is going to replace every \n with \r\n, as was intended by the ASCII standard.

[[oh, how i wish people here would get this ]]

Well, awesome, that'll serve two purposes:

1) It'll fark up any standard file such that every line will have a blank one following it.

2) It'll allow unixtards to complain about it.

So, again, we don't have access to the nugget of genius that allowed the *nix folks to adopt the wrong standard, and we DO get to continue to suffer from that bad decision.

Here's a thought experiment for you: now that this has gone on for decades, how can it be solved such that it doesn't leave one group or another screwed.? 

As an aside, my doctor said that my LDL is lower than last time, but I should eat better and exercise more.  I kind of wonder if there are forums where MDs argue about how the spleen functions. 

I also wonder if anyone has ever had a physical and been told: Awesome!!!! Feel free to eat sh*t food and lay around for a bit.

-Josh

2 hours ago, W3bbo wrote

*snip*

CreateImmersiveWindow function. Why does a glorified full-screen function need its own top-level Win32 function for something you should be able to do simply by exposing some more control over the window manager?

I'm guessing a new function was preferable to messing around with some ancient CreateWindow code, calling it CreateWindowExEx, or requiring 3rd party developers to pass in the perfect combination of parameters to get the right kind of window. It probably calls CreateWindow itself anyways.

You just want to play with the dwm API

MSFT developers are clearly professionals. (nm, it looks like some guy screen named PlainDickhead got a Win8 build)

http://www.winrumors.com/windows-8-android-like-pattern-logon-screen-demo-video/

If you have any question as to whether or not it's real

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq_bTgfUKzY

"Windows 8 ..."

This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Microsoft Corporation.

The whole silverlight thing is addressed here:

http://www.winrumors.com/silverlight-isnt-dead-its-the-heart-of-windows-phone-windows-8-and-xbox/

The software giant is readying a new application model codenamed "Jupiter" that will allow developers to create Silverlight based applications, deployed as AppX packages (.appx). The packages will be part of a new Windows application store, pre-installed with Windows 8.

I will of course be developing APKs for Android and for ChromeOS instead since I make money from GOOG, not Windohs regardless of what Microsoft does! (money talks, bullsh1t walks)

Is it just me or did I break the markup of this website?

No mobile website version and shoddy markup parsing. C9, you never cease to amaze me!

26 minutes ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

Is it normal to name demo users Dickhead for QA?

MSFT developers are clearly professionals.

http://www.winrumors.com/windows-8-android-like-pattern-logon-screen-demo-video/

Dear Chris,

maybe the fact that the serial codes are hidden in the screenshot and the fact that the screenshot does not come from Microsoft should, and I emphasize *should*, clue you into that maybe, just maybe, that is not a screenshot made by a Microsoft employee?

Maybe?

 Edit: also, I remember patter based login checks done in UMPC, way before Google copied it in Android.

That is not a screenshot but a frame of a movie that was removed from YouTube by Microsoft Corp for the reason of DMCA infringment.

This movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq_bTgfUKzY

The serial codes are blocked out because somebody at MSFT probably doesn't want to get fired I would guess.

Remember when an employee on the Xbox team, had a kid who leaked XB SDK pictures before it's release?

http://www.dvhardware.net/article5860.html

Imagine this: You just start working at Microsoft as Regulatory Compliance Manager and you are currently testing the Xbox 360 console. You take it home, and unfortunately your teenage son finds the box with the developer kit. He connects the console to his TV and calls a friend to take a look.

The kid has never heard of an NDA and starts boasting on a game forum. He's even stupid enough to let a friend take some pictures of him while playing with the Xbox 360 developer kit. Three pictures can be seen over here.

10 minutes ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

@PaoloM:

That is not a screenshot but a frame of a movie

Really? And how do you know this?

 that was removed from YouTube by Microsoft Corp for the reason of DMCA infringment.

Do you even *know* what DMCA means?

The serial codes are blocked out because somebody at MSFT probably doesn't want to get fired I would guess.

Translation: I make stuff up because I hope nobody will call me on that.

But hey, keep writing software for Android! More people will buy headsets for that and Microsoft will get a minimum of $5 for any of them (as opposed to... how much is Google making from any headset sold?) It's a win-win!

Really? And how do you know this?

Because it says so on several websites.

I will retract that MS made a demo user called Dickhead, apparently that's part of the screen name of the guy who got a Win8 build. Maybe it's the kid of a MSFT employee that works too many long hours and doesn't spend quality time with their children.

Do you even *know* what DMCA means?

Wikipedia does!

4 minutes ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

@PaoloM:

I will retract that MS made a demo user called Dickhead, apparently that's part of the screen name of the guy who got a Win8 build.

Very good! Admitting you were completely and absolutely wrong and a dickhead (no pun intended) to post what you posted in the first place is the first step in realizing that maybe there are people around that know better.

Maybe it's the kid of a MSFT employee that works too many long hours and doesn't spend quality time with their children.

Oh, snap! You razor sharp wit cuts deep, messieur Rondot.

4 hours ago, Bass wrote

Uh, stop trying to rerail (is that even a word?) the conversation. We were discussing cats. And the mathematical fact that Linux is a much better operating system then Windows.

sorry, sorry, major faux pas on my part

9 hours ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

It's [wikipedia] a useful tool for linking articles when you get into flame wars on messageboards. It's probably not useful for much more than that.

Really?

1 hour ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

@PaoloM:

 

*snip*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act

Wikipedia does!

Oh, cbea you were right after all, sorry

10 hours ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

Couldn't your time be better served by working on your open source project today instead of getting into a pi$$ing contest about a silly convention? I'm sure your freetard buddies are waiting for you to check in your awesome code devoid of /r into Github.

No, I have a business plan i'm working on:

1. Find a nice open source project (pref. on github)
2. Convert from the Unix end of line convention to Windows'
3. Compile for windows and make an installer
4. sell it to cbae

Why some developer at Microsoft won't spend the 30 minutes to finally fix this problem for good is an open question.

5 minutes ago, Bass wrote

Why some developer at Microsoft won't spend the 30 minutes to finally fix this problem for good is an open question.

Things aren't that simple.

Notepad is meant to be a simple text editor, by supporting (and so, preserving) a single newline character sequence you make it fail-safe: when saving changes you're not at risk of corrupting unmodified data.

Consider what would happen if Notepad opened a text file with only \n (LF) line-endings, well that's simple, it means that all new newlines entered by the user must be single LF characters.

Same thing with \r\n (CRLF) line-endings.

But what if a file has a mixture of \n and \r\n endings? When a user inserts a new line should the editor insert \r\n or just \n? When the document is saved should it replace all of the solitary \n characters with \r\n? But doing that could potentially corrupt a file.

Visual Studio and other editors solve this by explicitly asking the user how they want to handle line-endings, and there's also the "Advanced Save" in VS where you can explicitly set line-endings and encoding.

But you can't do that in Notepad because of its wide userbase of massively varying technical ability. It's easier for everyone just to not support the strict minority of documents that use \n or mixed-ending line endings and expect them to use a more appropriate tool (such as Notepad++ or VS).

Use whatever is the native line encoding of the document. I think in the rare cases where a document uses both line encodings, it would be okay to warn the user that it will reset everything to CR-LF or something. It's something that is so rare, I doubt it would "confuse" anyone.

3 minutes ago, W3bbo wrote

It's easier for everyone just to not support the strict minority of documents that use \n or mixed-ending line endings and expect them to use a more appropriate tool (such as Notepad++ or VS).

Or WordPad (write.exe).

The first thing I do with any new Windows installation is to add shortcuts to both NotePad and WordPad in my SendTo folder.

10 minutes ago, Bass wrote

It seems that the terminal in Windows displays Unix encoded text properly as well. It really seems Notepad is the only "visible" thing that doesn't.

Have you tried MS-DOS Editor? I don't have Unix encoded file handy.

19 minutes ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

Or WordPad (write.exe).

The first thing I do with any new Windows installation is to add shortcuts to both NotePad and WordPad in my SendTo folder.

I'm surprised people actually use the Send To menu. I don't know why it's still around, the only useful options are "Send to Compressed Folder" and "Send to Mail Recipient" and even then neither works right (as I have multiple mail clients installed, and 7-Zip performs better than Windows' Zip handler in every way).

7 minutes ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

Have you tried MS-DOS Editor? I don't have Unix encoded file handy.

edit.exe isn't available in 64-bit Windows.

42 minutes ago, Bass wrote

@W3bbo:

Use whatever is the native line encoding of the document. I think in the rare cases where a document uses both line encodings, it would be okay to warn the user that it will reset everything to CR-LF or something. It's something that is so rare, I doubt it would "confuse" anyone.

Visual Studio does this. If all lines are \n it uses \n, if all lines are \r\n it uses \r\n and if there's a mix it warns the user and asks if they would like to normalize the line ending character (it always normalizes to \r\n)

47 minutes ago, W3bbo wrote

*snip*

I'm surprised people actually use the Send To menu. I don't know why it's still around, the only useful options are "Send to Compressed Folder" and "Send to Mail Recipient" and even then neither works right (as I have multiple mail clients installed, and 7-Zip performs better than Windows' Zip handler in every way).

How would you quickly select between opening a file with NotePad vs WordPad?

2 hours ago, Bass wrote

Why some developer at Microsoft won't spend the 30 minutes to finally fix this problem for good is an open question.

Isn't it the constant mantra of the FOSS community that it's better to fix applications than for the OS to continually support broken behaviour? In this case, the standard (CR+LF) is very clear, so why is the FOSS community not out fixing all their apps to work correctly in the first place?

47 minutes ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

How would you quickly select between opening a file with NotePad vs WordPad?

Right click > Open with > Option 1: Notepad, Option 2: WordPad.

2 hours ago, PaoloM wrote

He probably needs to consult his favourite source to see how UNIX's model is flat out wrong

Hehe, gotta love Wikipedia. Especially the random WLM bug report stuffed into the middle of that document under "Common Problems", despite not being common at all.

47 minutes ago, W3bbo wrote

*snip*

Right click > Open with > Option 1: Notepad, Option 2: WordPad.

I sometimes need to open files without the typical extension that are normally linked to NotePad or WordPad. It sames me the hassle of having to "Choose default program...".

1 minute ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

I sometimes need to open files without the typical extension that are normally linked to NotePad or WordPad. It sames me the hassle of having to "Choose default program...".

You should only have to do this once, though.

Edit: er once per file type.

15 minutes ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

I sometimes need to open files without the typical extension that are normally linked to NotePad or WordPad. It sames me the hassle of having to "Choose default program...".

you could also just press shift and right click on the file and choose open with.. once you've selected a perticular program once for a perticular file type, it will show up in the open with list.

1 hour ago, AndyC wrote

*snip*

Isn't it the constant mantra of the FOSS community that it's better to fix applications than for the OS to continually support broken behaviour? In this case, the standard (CR+LF) is very clear, so why is the FOSS community not out fixing all their apps to work correctly in the first place?

Short answer: lolwut?

Long answer:

What standard are you talking about it? POSIX? Unicode?

Also care to elaborate on this "constant mantra"?

1 hour ago, Bass wrote

What standard are you talking about it? POSIX? Unicode?

I see... now there are too many and confusing standards, eh? Poor FOSS developer can't make it because it's way too difficult, eh?

There is one standard for TTY, and it's ANSI. This was, by the way, the only valid TTY standard in 1964, when the writers of Multics decided to completely ignore it.

And what has POSIX to do with the definition of the newline control sequence?

Your source (Wikipedia) says this:

"ASCII was developed simultaneously by the ISO and the ASA, the predecessor organization to ANSI. During the period of 1963–1968, the ISO draft standards supported the use of either CR+LF or LF alone as a newline, while the ASA drafts supported only CR+LF."

Note the keyword "draft", and the fact that the two seem to conflict with one another.

And it also mentions this:

The Unicode standard defines a large number of characters that conforming applications should recognize as line terminators:

 LF:    Line Feed, U+000A
 VT:    Vertical Tab, U+000B
 FF:    Form Feed, U+000C
 CR:    Carriage Return, U+000D
 CR+LF: CR (U+000D) followed by LF (U+000A)
 NEL:   Next Line, U+0085
 LS:    Line Separator, U+2028
 PS:    Paragraph Separator, U+2029

Obviously Notepad is not Unicode compliant.

Poor FOSS developer can't make it because it's way too difficult, eh?

Poor Italian guy struggling to fit in America. Dude, stop being an @ss and just go back home if you can't take it.

I guarantee you'll be less bitter than you are now.

35 minutes ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

*snip*

Poor Italian guy struggling to fit in America.

If there's one thing I'm not doing now, it's struggling

 Dude, stop being an @ss and just go back home if you can't take it.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be mean. I understand that having to slave away for "the man" makes you bitter but I honestly think you should find a better job, where your contribution is valued and you have the opportunity to lead a group and be an agent of positive change.

Oh wait. You are the one driving cars into a ditch. Never mind

Also, the interface looks awesome, and would be great for a tablet. No a laptop or computer(hence the Windows behind it). 

Food for thought,

1 hour ago, Gambawn wrote

Ugh, first off Windows8 is nothing more than windows 7 with enhancements.

Just like Windows 7 is nothing more than Windows Vista with enhancements.

I don't understand how WinDev's (like myself) are getting off saying death to VS dev like (WPF/Silverlight/.NET) I don't see them going anywhere. HTML5/JS are client crap you still need stuff to actually be functional in an app. 

HTML is "client crap"? I guess XAML is "client crap" as well...

Also, the interface looks awesome, and would be great for a tablet. No a laptop or computer(hence the Windows behind it). 

Why not a laptop? I think it would work great on a laptop, why do you think it wouldn't?