So I finally got round to trying Win8 on hardware

9 hours ago, Dr Herbie wrote

@Ian2: Yes, but I can already do that on my Win7 phone ...

What doesn't bode well is when Win8 is installed on desktops, and users won't know how to switch it off when they're done (and mostly won't bother to search).

Herbie

@Dr Herbie:  You really shouldn't base your opinions off of sub-par hardware with a terrible touch screen.  Good hardware makes all of the difference. 

You are also complaining about not knowing where things are.  How long does that last?  Once you figure it out, then you know it.  Should I really have to point that out?

I am getting so tired of all of this chatter about "OMG it is different than what I am used to... get off my lawn!!!"  If change is so hard for all of the complainers then should you really be using any technology?  It moves so fast and is constantly changing.  I didn't hear this much whining when people switched from dumb phones to smart phones and that was a much bigger leap.

15 minutes ago, JeremyJ wrote

@Dr Herbie:  You really shouldn't base your opinions off of sub-par hardware with a terrible touch screen.  Good hardware makes all of the difference. 

You are also complaining about not knowing where things are.  How long does that last?  Once you figure it out, then you know it.  Should I really have to point that out?

I am getting so tired of all of this chatter about "OMG it is different than what I am used to... get off my lawn!!!"  If change is so hard for all of the complainers then should you really be using any technology?  It moves so fast and is constantly changing.  I didn't hear this much whining when people switched from dumb phones to smart phones and that was a much bigger leap.

Likewise I am so tired of people dismissing valid complaints as "whining". It's even more insulting with your correlation that those with complaints shouldn't be using technology in the first place. So if your opinion parallels Microsoft's sentiment with these complaints then Microsoft is about to insult a lot of people with the release of W8. Microsoft isn't going to win anyone over telling them "you're holding it wrong".

@Minh: I can put it to sleep with the power button, but i actually prefer to switch things off -- and I don't like the idea of holding the power button and forcing a hard-reset.

@JeremyJ: I was making allowances for the hardware, but it's not the hardware that stopped me from being able to switch it off. And it's not 'OMG, it's different!' it's 'OMG it's more opaque!". It's not about things having been moved (I coped fine with changes from Win3.1 through all versions to Win7), it's that accessing controls feels like it's less focused and more spread out making it harder to 'stumble' on the answer.

Herbie

I feel I should point out that the reason I started this thread was that I was actually taken by surprise that I couldn't easily find out how to switch off in Win8; I have found Windows to become easier to explore (functionality-wise) over the last few iterations, but this feels harder -- and that came as something of a shock.

Herbie

@Dr Herbie: Hmm, I'm not sure it's much more spread out - in a desktop app you'd typically look for something by going through the menus (or Ribbon tabs). In Win8 you look for something in the charms (right hand corner/edge) or the app commands (right-click). So it's a bit more spread out in that you have two places instead of one to look, but that is IMO balanced by the fact that charms are a more consistent way to get to common functions than desktop menus/ribbons offer (e.g. find settings in the Settings charm, vs. is it in Tools->Options? or Edit->Preferences? or File->Options? or an unlabeled gear icon? maybe I have to hit Alt to bring up the menu bar? etc.)

@Dr Herbie: I believe that they tend to obscure things they want people to move away from.  Actually powering off hardware is becoming a thing of the past.  Think of it more like your WP7 phone.  Do power it off every time you shut off the screen?  You state that you are more comfortable powering it off.... why is that?  It is just because that is what you are used to, or is there some other concern that could be addressed?

I don't think it's really obscured - it's put directly under one of only five fundamental controls for the OS after all. However, it's demoted a bit from being completely front and center to being just a "utility function", like connecting to a wireless network which is also under Settings.

35 minutes ago, Dr Herbie wrote

I have found Windows to become easier to explore (functionality-wise) over the last few iterations, but this feels harder -- and that came as something of a shock.

Herbie

If you use Windows 8 on a tablet, you will find the charms bar, and the ability to access key functions very easily. Touch makes discovorability easy in Windows 8. If you use a mouse and keyboard and didn't have the internet, it could take weeks to find out how to use Windows 8.

Windows has always been rewarding traditionally, helping you find out how to do things on your own, especially with tool-tips and right clicking and finding context menus with shortcuts. This reward system is solely touch based in Windows 8 and the "Metro UI", which is where the frustration with the OS stems from.

What I find unbelivable is the inability for some people to ever post a non-Microsoft biased disquisition. Even Charles dismisses some things from time to time, and comes across as human and rational. Supporting Microsoft for anything and everything they do is irrational and will never improve things for the better.

Patience level varies considerably and many will just write their frustrations off as poor design.  I agree with what I think Dr Herbie is saying in that there needs to be a tutorial or temporary how-to functionality to help users that will not even bother trying to find an answer to their question. 

It took me a while to even figure out that the bar was called the charms bar.  Imagine that impatient user we all know trying to figure that out on his/her own after spending 15 years figuring out how windows used to work.  Wouldn't hurt the adoption rate if there were some basic instructions that you didn't have to go looking for.

After some significant usage, I found that shortcut keys are the key to using Win 8 on desktop and find it very functional.

4 minutes ago, svelasquez wrote

 Wouldn't hurt the adoption rate if there were some basic instructions that you didn't have to go looking for.

Like the tutorial on start up in RTM?

Personally, I think there needs to be more than just this tutorial. Just flash the stuff on the edges so that users at least know there's something there.

@vesuvius: That simply makes no sense. The edge UI is the same amount of "hidden" with touch as it is with mouse. With both input methods, the gesture to bring up common system functions exploits a basic property of the method (with touch it's the fact that you hold a touch device by the edges; with mouse it's the fact that the corners are the most easily accessible points on the screen) but has no persistent visual indication. If this is a problem with one method it's a problem with the other, conversely if it's not a problem with one it's not a problem with the other, because they are essentially the same. (also, tooltips and right-click for commands are both pervasive in new Windows 8 UI, in fact right-click is more consistent).

Plus, the topic starter was using it with touch on a tablet (albeit one with a wonky touch screen and edge-gesture-inhibiting bezel)!

13 hours ago, Ian2 wrote

"Minimal compromise" would have been better but a disaster for marketing!?

Now *THERE* is a classic MS marketing campaign if ever I saw one...

"Windows-8 - it's probably not as bad as you think"

@MasterPie:

i agree - the "Hi" animation doesnt show you the corners properly - just the charms bar

it should also say

IF you have a tablet - you can slide out from center right - but NOT with a mouse....

at least on mine

They should have done Quick link - i mean charms where you go to right side anywhere and wait 1 second - and its there

@jamie: Anything that would require waiting for a full second would be pretty useless IMO, not to mention that would still interfere with too much app/desktop UI (e.g. scrollbars)

2 hours ago, svelasquez wrote

Patience level varies considerably and many will just write their frustrations off as poor design.

If your features aren't discoverable, then your UI is badly designed. Your UI is about showing off your functionality. If your user wants to do something it is the job of your UI to get them to a button that'll do the action they want as quickly as possible. If you have to search the Internet to find a feature in your app, then your apps UI has failed. In this regard, at least, Windows8's UI has got in the way of Dr Herbie doing what he wants compared with Windows7, and that is a direct failure of the Windows8 shell UI team.

I agree with what I think Dr Herbie is saying in that there needs to be a tutorial or temporary how-to functionality to help users that will not even bother trying to find an answer to their question. 

I disagree. There is a significant percentage of the population who don't engage with tutorials because they "just want to get started". They'll right click and press escape and space bar and click on as many red-crosses as is necessary to skip your tutorial and then complain later when they can't do something that was explained in the tutorial. It's easy to blame them and say that's their fault, but on the other hand, if your UI isn't obvious without a tutorial or a manual, maybe your UI isn't very good.

If I were on the shell UI team, I'd take a leaf out of the computer-game industry's book and make every loading screen in Windows8 give little popup "hints" for how to use Windows. These would give you clues as to hidden features like shortcut-keys, upgrades, enhancements and so on during Windows boot and during Metro app loading and so on without requiring interaction or slowing down someone's ability to "just use" the OS. Nobody wants to sit down and read a manual, but if you're forcing the user to wait (during boot etc) you might as well make use of the time they're staring at the screen and doing nothing.

the gaming tips is a good idea.

*said the guy who spent a week at the cottage watching joby play batman lego 2

it looks better than quake or doom! (lol)

10 hours ago, vesuvius wrote

What I find unbelivable is the inability for some people to ever post a non-Microsoft biased disquisition. Even Charles dismisses some things from time to time, and comes across as human and rational. Supporting Microsoft for anything and everything they do is irrational and will never improve things for the better.

I absolutely agree, blindly supporting everything a company does will never have a positive effect. Not on that company's decision making, nor on online discussions such as these. Neither does assuming that any opinion that differs from your own can only be the result of blind fanboyism rather than any sort of informed process.