So I finally got round to trying Win8 on hardware

8 hours ago, contextfree` wrote

I think you are aggressively missing the point, but I am getting tired of this argument and will leave you here to enjoy your certitude in your absolute rightness.

I think you are aggressively missing the point, but I am getting tired of this argument and will leave you here to enjoy your certitude in your absolute rightness.

Dude, working at Microsoft does not mean that you are right, especially if you have not been developing software for decades, and arguing with people that have.

There is absolutely nothing in what you have said. Time will allow you to realise that!

@Dr Herbie:

Win7 IIRC defaults to "Sleep" on the start menu, I imagine what happend was you had updates in which case it flicks over to install updates and shut down. 

My point is: what in Windows 7 user interface told you that the shutdown option was available in the Start Menu other than habit?  Because habit isn't the same as discoverability.

@Garulon: I repeat -- on a new Win7 install, the start menu orb is the only control on the taskbar and therefore draws the users attention to click it -- then the shutdown entry is visible. Win8 hides the shutdown option beneath 2 layers, making it less discoverable.

Herbie

9 minutes ago, Garulon wrote

@Dr Herbie:

Win7 IIRC defaults to "Sleep" on the start menu, I imagine what happend was you had updates in which case it flicks over to install updates and shut down. 

Or the OEMs customized the default, which they often do.

I'd expect most OEMs will ship Windows 8 desktops with the Power On button set to Shutdown or Hibernate so that, like pretty much every other consumer electronics device in your house, you'll press the same button to turn it off as you did to turn it on. Most Windows 7 desktops already shipped configured like that. It's about as intuitive as you can get, even if people who've become conditioned to doing it through the Start Menu will need to un-learn that behaviour.

@Dr Herbie:"on a new Win7 install, the start menu orb is the only control on the taskbar and therefore draws the users attention to click it"

No it isn't.  Starting from the left of a new install of Win7 there's the Windows orb, IE, Explorer and Media Player icons, and if I'd never seen Windows before I'd probably try clicking the Media Player icon first (it's got a big "Play" arrow next to it), the Windows orb mostly looks like a badge logo.  Assuming I'd tried all the icons and found Start, if the Start men's suspend button is set to sleep what discoverable feature tells me the right-pointing arrow is "shutdown"?

"Win8 hides the shutdown option beneath 2 layers, making it less discoverable."

It "hides" the "shutdown while logged in" option in the "settings" menu sure, but the shutdown option is also in the sign in screen pretty clearly.

2 hours ago, Garulon wrote

I'm thinking if he'd never seen a Windows machine before he wouldn't do much better on Windows 7

Rather than playing in hypotheticals like "I'm sure he'd find it difficult on Windows7", we have an option now to do an objective look, because Dr Herbie isn't a hypothetical user. He's actually here and we can actually ask him (this is kind of what usability research is).

The following isn't up for discussion. They are just straightforward facts:

Dr Herbie couldn't find the power down button in Windows8 when he first got Windows8.

Dr Herbie could find the power down button in Windows7 when he first got Windows7.

Dr Herbie isn't a single data point. I also struggled to find the "power down" (and logoff for that matter) button in Windows8, and I certainly didn't have any problems turning Windows7 off.

@evildictaitor:I didn't have a problem with either in Win8 so that's another "data point" (lol). 

Logoff was pretty easy to find as it was clicking on your account badge in the start screen and selecting "logoff", I'm having a hard time working out how that's less "discoverable" than Win7's magic super-discoverable unlabelled flyout, let alone the power button which is directly surfaced in the UI in three places, one of which you go through as you login and another which is displayed to you if you configure networking. 

I don't have a problem with people getting annoyed with having their cheese moved which appears to be the case here that's perfectly natural, however I really can't understand painting it as a "UI Failure" especially as the settings panel appears to be a pretty good tradeoff as a way of centralising functionality.  Not perfect by any means (I'd love to be able to tooltip battery status there) but a hell of a lot better than Win7's scattershot approach. 

For example, tell me where the brightness control is in Win7.

4 minutes ago, Garulon wrote

For example, tell me where the brightness control is in Win7.

Mobility center, accessible from the battery icon in the systray.

While I was able to find the shutdown in Windows 8, I do admit it's rather hidden, and illogical that shutdown and log off aren't in the same place. Also, I hate the zigzag motion you need to make with the mouse to get there, and that goes for a lot of Windows 8 UI actually (anyone who mentions keyboard shortcuts will be shot).

@Garulon: I don't mind the cheese being moved, I just like to know where it's been moved to, or have it moved to somewhere that's just as easy to find as the last place.

Herbie

@Sven Groot: "Also, I hate the zigzag motion you need to make with the mouse to get there" OK, not going to mention Win+I on pain of being shot, but at least on my laptop I just fling the pointer to a corner and then "aim" at the charm icon I want, it's pretty much second nature to me now in the RP although it did feel really arkward initially

@Herbie: Point taken, although hopefully from here on in all system stuff will be the settings panel so it shouldn't change again.

For all we know, they could have just added a shut down option to the same menu as log off in RTM, and then most of this thread is pointless.

I haven't shut down my PC in years unless I was going on vacation. S3 sleep uses very little power, and the speed in waking is definitely worth a small electric bill versus the slowness of a full cold boot.

Still, I do agree that putting it in "settings" doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It also didn't make sense to put it in the start menu, but we all got used to it. Where was it in Windows 3.1? The Window menu in Program Manager?

As far as using the power button to shut down, you can configure your power button to shut down in the power settings.

36 minutes ago, spivonious wrote

I haven't shut down my PC in years unless I was going on vacation. S3 sleep uses very little power, and the speed in waking is definitely worth a small electric bill versus the slowness of a full cold boot.

I start my PC first thing in the morning, before I go to the bathroom. It's ready when I get back. So boot up time doesn't bother me (and is pretty fast anyway since I have an SSD).

Still, I do agree that putting it in "settings" doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It also didn't make sense to put it in the start menu, but we all got used to it. Where was it in Windows 3.1? The Window menu in Program Manager?

Closing Program Manager with the window menu was the way to exit windows (did program manager have a menu bar? If so it was probably also in there).

@spivonious: "and the speed in waking is definitely worth a small electric bill versus the slowness of a full cold boot."

Ironically I've set a hibernate timeout on my laptop in Win8 because the resume from hibernate is crazy fast even on a spinny rust disk.  I imagine an SSD is crazy crazy fast.

@vesuvius: My being an arrogant twit has nothing to do with my working for Microsoft, don't drag that into it I don't even work for Microsoft directly BTW, I contract for them, in a position that has nothing to do with Windows 8.

@contextfree`: Fair enough, I  also am unlikely to ever be negative with someone I currently work for or worked for. Personally, I feel free to come across arrogant/negative on channel 9 because I don't see myself as applying for a job there, that allows me to be unbiased.

There are customers here that I am in touch with that are some of Microsoft biggest customers so I don't make things up, and my negativity is usually because of something like Windows Phone 7 where a local council (municipal) chose the platform and it is now obsolescent. They only just moved off Lotus notes a couple of years ago, and this has been a real kick-in-the-teeth for them

Bumping this since I noticed Hanselman's blog entry shows how to create a shutdown tile on the start screen, which is nice to know.

Herbie

7 hours ago, Dr Herbie wrote

Bumping this since I noticed Hanselman's blog entry shows how to create a shutdown tile on the start screen, which is nice to know.

Herbie

That's handy. But this reminds me of when MacOS X Lion changed the scrolling direction of the trackpad to better match that of the tablets despite literally noone asking for this or even thinking it was a good idea after the fact. I'm like "thanks for the blog post, but I'd prefer not to pay for an OS upgrade and then have to google a solution to un**** the dumb UI changes in it". I'm still using Snow Leopard on my Macbook